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Old 11-28-2005   #1
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Default Which one's better?

A nice victory against the Rams or a tough loss against the Rams?

I think some people have lost focus on the goal here - the betterment of the Texans as a franchise. A meaningless win against the Rams does NOTHING to help this franchise - nothing.

Capers needs to go. Why? Because he's a bad guy? No. Because at this stage of our development (and we're still developing...), Capers is no longer effective. However, in year 1, by keeping us in the game and actually playing NOT to lose, it helped us. Now, we move on.

We have guys on this team that need to be evaluated. We need to see Morency, we need to see CARR throw more often and let him sling it and get into a rhythm, we need to see Earl and CC play out the year. Mathis should start - period. He should be in on EVERY passing down. Why? The betterment of our franchise not because he's better than Gaffney right now. The goal can not be to win games.

As for the draft, we need to improve. If we get Brick, Bush, Hawk - we'll be better. As for coaches, we need one who makes us better. Do we go college route? Stoops? Leach? etc...? Or do we go Herm Edwards? Al Saunders? Kubiak?

Whatever we do needs to be done with making our franchise advance toward the Superbowl - winning more games does NOT do that. The instant gratification of a win hurts us more than helps us. Let's hope for a good showing and evaluation of Carr, Pitts, Earl, etc...so we can be better prepared come 2006.


IMO....
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Old 11-28-2005   #2
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a win is always better. And it is for more reason's than I want to type here. First being to raise the confidence of the team to a point that THEY think they are actually capable of winning a ball game.

I don't see any 'future evaluations' going on in any game so far. This isn't a Nick Saban ran team where your getting 'gamefilm' on some potential future players. We keep putting the same bad players in the same bad schemes and thinking it is going to result in something good. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Right now the Texans are the classic definition if insanity. Nice to see the fans are getting on the 'Rubber Room' bandwaggon also though.
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Old 11-28-2005   #3
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Winning is ALL that matters in the NFL.

SCOREBOARD.

Training camp and pre-season are specifically tailored to evaluate players, NOT during a regular season. There is some validity to putting in a backup player during regular games to give them the experience, but they should be on your team because you've already evaluated them.
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Old 11-28-2005   #4
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Winning is ALL that matters?? Really? All that matters? I love idealistic opinions. They fit so well with reality.

So, if you need a franchise LT and he's sitting at number 1 but you have to have the worst record to draft him. So now you're tied at the end of the season with one game left. If you lose, you get your STUD FRANCHISE LT! If you win, you lose him and take someone else.

You're saying that you win that little week 16 game and sacrifice your franchises future at LT because you want the guys to 'feel like they can win?'

Winning is all that matters?

McNair says, "Dom. Win the last 2 and you stay or I'm getting Jimmy Johnson/ Kubiak (Or whoever)"


You're saying to win those games because even though we need a new coach and a new system, you want Marcus Coleman, PBuc, Victor Riley, etc...to 'feel like they can win?"

You'd sacrifice our future so you can have a few fun wins, tailgate and drink a couple beers right now? That makes no sense!

Winning NOW is not all that matters - putting your franchise in a position to win the Superbowl is what matters. Put the idealism away and build your franchise the way it should be built through common sense and smart decisions not cheap wins so we can wear our Texans jerseys to work on Fridays!
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Old 11-28-2005   #5
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"...The instant gratification of a win hurts us more than helps us...." -- Drama

----------------------------------

Exactly.

But try telling that to some people who can't think long-term. Saban was RIGHT in what he said. When you are half-way through your season, and you see bad chemistry on your team, you know it's a lost season and you know your job goes form focusing on winning to focusing on bettering the team for next year. Winning with a sub-par team, especially when there is absolutely NO chance at playoffs or even .500 for that matter is actually a hindrance to the future of a franchise. It's a short season (16 games) and in NBA you can sustain a rough patch of losses and still make the corner with momentum to carry into the playoffs. Doesn't hurt that almost ALL NBA teams make the playoffs, for that matter. Anyway, in the NFL you just have such a small window for making that post-season push with any serious shot of competing well in the post-season. Otherwise, what are you doing? It's all for nought if your team wins meaningless games at the end of the season. Next thing you know, the HC is given another year because according to the owner: "Hey, this guy can rally the troops and we feel confident that next year we will pick up where we left off this season..." That's why a Mike Tice is still here. He always, and I mean ALWAYS, pulls a few clutch wins out of his bupkus and BAM! he's right back in good graces. And then what happens next season? Same darn thing. Over and over and over and over and over. Very puzzling to me. Same result year after year.

Saban will stun everyone next year with markedly better talent through the draft and free agency--a "fire sale" of all the old guys like Seau--, and then everyone will be on the Saban wagon when it happens. But right now, he's "ignorant" for making those comments.

At least Dolphins fans have a HC who knows r-e-a-l-i-t-y and has enough common sense to see that he inherited what is mostly an aged and declining team at every position but RB and WR. Guys like Saban say the unpopular thing but they always end up proving the doubters wrong in the end. Guys like Saban can take the heat because they know some day it always comes full circle...and a guy like Saban is not going to get derailed along the way by all the "experts" who try to kick a man/team while they are down, piling onto an already deflated team.

Good for you, Saban. Say it, and say it loud. Truth telling is so rare these days, it's become all about what people do and do not want to hear. That's the same B.S. we got fed for the past three years with musical chairs on the o line and how the patched-up line would be jelling now. Yeah, right.

We could use a HC like Saban who is a proven WINNER, a guy who could give a rip what doubters think or say about his plans. Capers and his whole staff just look like robotic stiffs putting on junior flag football clinics: Always the same "coach speak" after another "tough loss" where we just "didn't get it done in crunch time," blah-blah-blah.

Hello...my name is...Mr. Robot Coach. I have...a polo style shirt...and starched khaki slacks. I like to...say cliches...and...I like to...write little notes into my neat notebook and stare into space as if I am in deep thought...Would you like to...see my whistle? I am...Mr. Robot Coach.

You get the drift. Next HC, please. This one I have here is a little funny tasting. I'd like another one if you don't mind.
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Old 11-28-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAMA
Winning is ALL that matters?? Really? All that matters? I love idealistic opinions. They fit so well with reality.

So, if you need a franchise LT and he's sitting at number 1 but you have to have the worst record to draft him. So now you're tied at the end of the season with one game left. If you lose, you get your STUD FRANCHISE LT! If you win, you lose him and take someone else.

You're saying that you win that little week 16 game and sacrifice your franchises future at LT because you want the guys to 'feel like they can win?'

Winning is all that matters?

McNair says, "Dom. Win the last 2 and you stay or I'm getting Jimmy Johnson/ Kubiak (Or whoever)"


You're saying to win those games because even though we need a new coach and a new system, you want Marcus Coleman, PBuc, Victor Riley, etc...to 'feel like they can win?"

You'd sacrifice our future so you can have a few fun wins, tailgate and drink a couple beers right now? That makes no sense!

Winning NOW is not all that matters - putting your franchise in a position to win the Superbowl is what matters. Put the idealism away and build your franchise the way it should be built through common sense and smart decisions not cheap wins so we can wear our Texans jerseys to work on Fridays!
You never shut it down. Call it an unwritten code amongst players and coaches that you never shut it down. The first team that does this will open a Pandora's box where you will begin to see the competitive level and team camraderie begin to deterioate at the grass roots level. Never shut it down it sends the wrong message.
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Old 11-28-2005   #7
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As long as we keep Capers around he is gonna try and win every game. He doesn't have the job security to evaluate people.

We need an interm head coach with a mandate from the owners to find out exactly what we have on this team. If that means giving Ragone a couple starts so be it. Hopefully they will dump capers before sunday.
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Old 11-28-2005   #8
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Originally Posted by jacquescas
As long as we keep Capers around he is gonna try and win every game. He doesn't have the job security to evaluate people.
We need an interm head coach with a mandate from the owners to find out exactly what we have on this team. If that means giving Ragone a couple starts so be it. Hopefully they will dump capers before sunday.
I dunno.....first reaction is that canning Capers at this point of the season
would be nothing more than a symbolic act to appease a bunch of PO'd Houston fans like us. But on second thought I think Jacq is on to something here and there are practical reasons for having an interim coach right now, as he says.
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Old 11-28-2005   #9
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Question LOSING is all that matters then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAMA
Winning is ALL that matters?? Really? All that matters? I love idealistic opinions. They fit so well with reality.
Last time I checked, winning is why they play the game.

Quick, name the teams that lost the last 20 Superbowls! Most people can't, and you know why? Because they are the number one losers.

So by your LOSER philosophy - and this is what it is, because high draft picks do not equal a winning team - why don't we just tank the next four seasons so we can have four no. 1 draft picks? That's whack, man, and EVERY NFL EXPERT would think you're off your rocker if you think a team ever plays to lose for next season.

You speak of idealism? Your entire point is idealistic to the point of delusional.

ps. Your point about McNair is PURE SPECULATION. He has never gone public about his true intentions. We can speculate until we're blue in the face, because that is about as reality deprived as you can get.
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Old 11-28-2005   #10
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By the way, it's why people pay to see the games--and spend money at the stadium. Saban's comments were not insightful or bold. They were absolutely boneheaded--and I'm a Saban FAN saying that.

Look at it another way....the business way. This IS a business, and a much bigger business than the college level Nick's used to. If I'm paying tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars as a sponsor to be the official car, or pizza, or bathroom tissue of the Miami Dolphins, I doggone sure didn't sign a contract to sponsor a 9-game "talent evaluation" period. I signed up to sponsor a winner. And I'd be expecting a better explanation than "maybe next year." When bad teams stop caring, expect most of their fans to stop caring too. (Witness the large number of people at Reliant dressed as empty seats.) That means plummeting radio ratings for all those "official sponsor" ads, and blackouts translate to a major drop in local media attention as well as the related local TV advertising dollars.

And if you're too much of a romantic fan to look at it pragmatically, here's another point of view. I'm, say, Zach Thomas--I didn't go out and separate my shoulder to be a part of a "talent evaluation" period on a team I may not even be back on next year. If a player had said something like that, Saban himself would've crucified the guy as a gutless quitter. Anyone who saw the film of Saban dressing down a rookie at Dolphins training camp knows it.

Saban screwed up and I doubt you'll ever hear him say anything like that again. That said, gp, your points about Capers' repetitive postgame comments are dead-on. The post-Rams "I'm man enough" flail was so little and so late that it was just sort of sad.
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Old 11-28-2005   #11
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Double-barrel...quick! Name the last 20 teams that WON the Superbowl. That analogy makes no sense but....

Also, nobody through week 10 said to lose every game to get 4 #1 draft picks so again, that analogy makes no sense. We're speaking of 5 remaining games. I feel that the team should be evaluated (LIke Detroit just did and who is run by an NFL Exec who actually DOES agree with this so again, bad reference point) for the last 5 games. You feel that we should start Coleman, Riley, Bradford and try to run the ball, control the clock and let's win out so we can 'Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee' feel good about this season.

So basically, I'll ask again - answer the question about winning or drafting the LT...easy question. If it comes down to a win, do you take the win and NO LT or the loss and a franchise LT? If you say that you take the loss and the franchise LT, then your earlier comments are too much of a blanket statement. If you say that you'd rather win THAT game in a lost season RATHER than taking a LT that will be your cornerstone for the next 10 seasons, then I need some further explanation.

I am NOT saying to tank the season. What am I saying is that we need to try Carr throwing 40 times in a game, we need to try Morency in relief of DD, we need to see Mathis in on every play, we need to see Sanders, McKenzie, CC and Earl.

We do NOT need Bradford, Coleman, Riley, etc...in there 'Executing the plays' and 'showing the heart' that we hear about every press conference.

All I'm saying is we need to look at things from a franchise point of view not a 'let's win these last five' point of view because Riley, Coleman, etc...are taking away from others who need to play and be evaluated.

Again, we're talking about 5 games! NO ONE IN THIS BOARD AT ANY TIME....has said from day 1 to tank the season or to tank the next 4 seasons. Again, the examples to contradict were not there in that post.
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Old 11-28-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAMA
Double-barrel...quick! Name the last 20 teams that WON the Superbowl. That analogy makes no sense but....

Also, nobody through week 10 said to lose every game to get 4 #1 draft picks so again, that analogy makes no sense. We're speaking of 5 remaining games. I feel that the team should be evaluated (LIke Detroit just did and who is run by an NFL Exec who actually DOES agree with this so again, bad reference point) for the last 5 games. You feel that we should start Coleman, Riley, Bradford and try to run the ball, control the clock and let's win out so we can 'Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee' feel good about this season.

So basically, I'll ask again - answer the question about winning or drafting the LT...easy question. If it comes down to a win, do you take the win and NO LT or the loss and a franchise LT? If you say that you take the loss and the franchise LT, then your earlier comments are too much of a blanket statement. If you say that you'd rather win THAT game in a lost season RATHER than taking a LT that will be your cornerstone for the next 10 seasons, then I need some further explanation.

I am NOT saying to tank the season. What am I saying is that we need to try Carr throwing 40 times in a game, we need to try Morency in relief of DD, we need to see Mathis in on every play, we need to see Sanders, McKenzie, CC and Earl.

We do NOT need Bradford, Coleman, Riley, etc...in there 'Executing the plays' and 'showing the heart' that we hear about every press conference.

All I'm saying is we need to look at things from a franchise point of view not a 'let's win these last five' point of view because Riley, Coleman, etc...are taking away from others who need to play and be evaluated.

Again, we're talking about 5 games! NO ONE IN THIS BOARD AT ANY TIME....has said from day 1 to tank the season or to tank the next 4 seasons. Again, the examples to contradict were not there in that post.
Dude...your entire arguement is "WHACK!"

Final game of the season, we are 2-13 and SF is 2-13. We lose we have the first pick, we win SF has the first pick. Lets say that first pick is the franchise LT you mention, you are saying we should lay down and lose that game in order to secure the #1 pick! THAT IS WHACK!

No, respectable NFL team would ever do that!

Also, Detroit is run by "an NFL exec that does believe in this"???? You are referring to Matt Millen? Please! I'm not sure what this guy has on the Ford family, but it must be good for him to still be running that team!
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Old 11-28-2005   #13
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Drama, I don't what your smoking, swallowing, or inhaling, but hey man, pass it over.

the day this team actually purposefully Tanks a single game, will be the last game I attend or watch with them. What in the holy name of football are you suggesting to begin with? We play Carr and some of our backups for gamefilm? Heck why go with that notion, I am far more interested in Ragone getting some gamefilm. Carr can't win a game with the starters in place anyway, so as long as we are just getting gamefilm, why jeapordize Carr in the mix?

Please. Pass it over man, I NEED some of that good stuff you got. This is the NFL and they better be playing to win each and every game. Saban is out on a limb with his idea AND announcing it to the public. Miami already has problems filling its sports stadiums even WITH a winning team. He just told the fans, don't bother showing up, we might or might not be interested in actually scoring some points this game.

As for your LT analogy, here is my answer. We WIN every game we can. Three months after the season is over we worry about the draft pick on draft day and do what we have to do to get our 'target man, LT'. But we do NOT, not NOW, nor EVER, play a game with the draft pick as some kind of deciding factor to the outcome of a game. PUUUULLLLEAZZZZZE
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Old 11-28-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAMA
Winning is ALL that matters?? Really? All that matters? I love idealistic opinions. They fit so well with reality.

So, if you need a franchise LT and he's sitting at number 1 but you have to have the worst record to draft him. So now you're tied at the end of the season with one game left. If you lose, you get your STUD FRANCHISE LT! If you win, you lose him and take someone else.

You're saying that you win that little week 16 game and sacrifice your franchises future at LT because you want the guys to 'feel like they can win?'

Winning is all that matters?

McNair says, "Dom. Win the last 2 and you stay or I'm getting Jimmy Johnson/ Kubiak (Or whoever)"


You're saying to win those games because even though we need a new coach and a new system, you want Marcus Coleman, PBuc, Victor Riley, etc...to 'feel like they can win?"

You'd sacrifice our future so you can have a few fun wins, tailgate and drink a couple beers right now? That makes no sense!

Winning NOW is not all that matters - putting your franchise in a position to win the Superbowl is what matters. Put the idealism away and build your franchise the way it should be built through common sense and smart decisions not cheap wins so we can wear our Texans jerseys to work on Fridays!


Im Sorry but there is not stud left tackle in this draft that would Be Worth the 1st overall selection. there are only two players in this draft as of right know that are worth the 1st selection and that is R.Bush and M.Leinart.
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Old 11-28-2005   #15
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Default Newsflash: Winning Matters.

It sucks rocks to lose games.

Most of our players will be back next year. They know all about how to lose and it would nice for them to get a taste of winning. To develop a positive, confident mental attitude to get away from NOT AGAIN horror of finding a different way to lose. Winning matters. Confidence matters. Too bad they can't bottle it.

As for the LT at the #1 spot, I am not sure that there is one out there that is so no miss that he is worth #1 money against the cap. I am sure we are gonna get someone plenty good with our pick no matter where we end up. And a good number of people will think it is a terrible pick. Because it happens every year at every team and every fan knows everything because they heard it from Mel Kiper Jr or some other blathering pinhead.
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Old 11-28-2005   #16
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Quote:
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A nice victory against the Rams or a tough loss against the Rams?
The loss to the Rams because it should help us WIN Reggie Bush.
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Old 11-29-2005   #17
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The loss to the Rams because it should help us WIN Reggie Bush.
A substandard win would be better by a country mile for anyone who happens to pay for season tickets or even game by game tickets. They are the people I feel sorriest for in this scenario. Lucky I'm not a US native because no way in blue Heaven would I pay to see this team play under this current regime...

A loss is not just a loss either. Not when it's a 'choke' of epic proportions like that whatever it was anyone wants to call it that happened on Sunday. I rather lose in a tight game point for point, not have a monumental lead that should be insurmountable (sp?) and far from being acheived by a team with a depleted defense and a 3rd string QB making his debut off the bench of all places
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Old 11-29-2005   #18
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man, your right put in the young guns and see what they can do, can't do any worse.
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Old 11-29-2005   #19
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Again, for the umpteenth time - I'm NOT SAYING tank and lose on purpose.

What I AM saying and smoking is this:

Can David Carr throw the ball 40 times a game? Maybe we should find out?
Chris McKenzie is NOT a starting NFL CB........or is he?
Is Jerome Mathis a starting NFL WR? We don't know.
Is Seth Wand ABLE to play RT - no clue!
Is Babin able to man his pos? Let's see...
Can Morency run the ball? Play him and find out.
Does COLEMAN REALLY need to play?


If you play the above guys, the odds are you will not win the game. However, you will find out more about these players, their talents, etc....and you will MOST LIKELY lose the game.


What I'm saying is - is it better to play Coleman, who's going to leave, is losing a step, and is generally a malcontent now over someone who has not started, is young, is inexperienced and needs to learn in order to get the win for 1 game?

When the franchise started, why not get all old, veteran players to WIN RIGHT NOW? Well, that's because you're 'building a team for the future.' If we were ready to win right now, we should do everything we can to win. But playing Coleman over a kid who needs to play, makes no sense to me. I'd rather build the nucleus and win for a decade then win one game in a lost season just so fans can feel good for a week. Put in work now - celebrate later. But that IS a philosophy. I'm sure some people want to acquire old guys so we can WIN NOW. I'd rather build the team from the ground up and endure my growing pains now.

However, if you think we're ready for the playoffs or Superbowl then yeah, this post or idealogy makes no sense. But I can tell you this - we ARE NOT ready for postseason play.
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Old 11-29-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAMA
....we ARE NOT ready for postseason play.
And just how do you know that?
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