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Old 11-03-2005   #121
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Oh and if you want facts I could start linking stat pages but well keep it simple:
Actually what I was looking for was something other than stats. Those don't reflect things like Bradford catching 1 in 4 passes thrown to him last week. What I was looking for was a suggestion of which plays from the last game as an example, were below average QB play.

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Dude throws for 138yards last Sunday and people seem to be happy....that about sums it all up for me
I'm certainly not happy at all with that. But after looking closely at the last 3 games, I don't see where that gets laid primarily at Carr's feet but would certainly invite an explanation why it should.
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Old 11-03-2005   #122
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I'm not a big Carr fan myself. I have watched him play in over 50 starts and I don't see any intangibles that make me go "wow" this guy is something else. I see very wooden play, poor decision making, little ability to manage the game, poor pocket presence, and a guy who has never put the team on his back and taken over games.

Consider this....As fans of this team, our high point in this franchise is when we won 3 of 4 games against quality opponents in 2003. We pushed New England to the brink of a loss if not for Brady managing another come from beind victory in the last moments of that game and going on to win 3 of 4 games where we beat Buffalo and then when we beat the Panthers who eventually went to the Super Bowl that year. Who was our Quarterback in those three games? Tony Banks, that's who.
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Old 11-03-2005   #123
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These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.

I'll speak for the "hater" camp. The boy just does not have "it". He has played 1 great half of football in over 50 starts (a loss against Minnesota last season) and aside from that 30 minutes has never shown us that he has what it takes to be a great, or even good NFL QB. And obviously his stats support this argument.
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Old 11-03-2005   #124
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While I probably have not used the same tone or have the opinion that Carr is a total spare, Honeymoon brings up a basic point that I have made in a couple of threads. Teams don't give QBs with Carr's winning percetage or stats 50 much less 60 games (year's end) of uncontested "loyality" no matter his draft position.
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Old 11-03-2005   #125
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
These two camps will always be divided. The Carr apologists will continue to find excuses for his poor play and the Carr haters will find fault in everything he does.
There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.
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Old 11-03-2005   #126
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.
While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.
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Old 11-03-2005   #127
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The main thing that I have not seen from Carr.

No 2-minute drill skills.
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Old 11-03-2005   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
There is a third camp which is attempting to fairly judge each player including Carr. IMO we don't really know what we have in Carr. He hasn't demonstrated himself as an elite QB, but IMO he hasn't been developed properly or put into a situation such that we could see what he would do on a NFL quality offense like other QB's get to develop in. As ArlingtonTexan said in another post, that is my single greatest criticism of this administration and why I want them gone--they have spent 4 years and $30 or so mil and have failed to build a team so that Carr can be judged adequately. If this administration had put together a team and O so we could conclude David Carr is no better than or only a poor man's Jake Plummer then criticism would be fair. They haven't done that.
Yep...from an on the field and business standpoint you can't invest in any QB for 4 years and not truly know what you have. I am so interested to see how the new coach staff and maybe GM handle Carr. He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge, no matter what the team does around him in regards to OL, WR, scheme , etc.

As poorly run as the Lions have been and plenty excuses for him to go around, the Lions at least know that Harrington is not worth a flip.
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Old 11-03-2005   #129
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Originally Posted by Vinny
While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.
Since I am sort in that middle camp, (even though saying Carr is Jake Plummer used get me Carr hater status), I want to say that for his draft position, and the time invested in him, Carr never being more than an average to OK QB is a disappointment and not what you want out of the face of franchise.
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Old 11-03-2005   #130
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Well being an expansion franchise admittedly gives him a longer leesh, I feel picking up an $8 option for a guy who has done next to nothing, sends the wrong message to the other players on the team who will be looking for new contracts for their quality performance (AJ, Orr, Dunta, etc.). It is a question of money so we can have money to go after Tra Thomas so we can fix the OL so there are no more excuses. If Carr can come back for like $3 million and be willing to compete for the job I TOTALLY support him coming back for a mulligan in '06.

The fact is his agent and the NFLPA will not be down with that probably, so in that case you say 'later dude, its been real, its been good, but not real good' and good luck in Detroit, Miami, Baltimore, Chicago or whatever QB Graveyard you get pulled into
And I think Casserly or a new GM should absolutely try to work out a deal with Carr for a lower guaranteed amount, maybe with the same potential for upside. He probably won't do it and that becomes the dilemma. I don't want Banks or anyone of that defined pure back-up level of talent at QB. Ragone has shown more IMO in practice than Banks, but he hasn't looked anywhere as good as Carr--of course that is practice.

Practical reality is this discussion is most likely useless because barring a total melt-down McNair seems very intent on Carr--to the tune that he doesn't seem like he will ask Carr for a lessor contract and in fact will exercise not only the 2 year but the 3 year extension option. Of course that means with a new regime we will find out what Carr really is for good, bad or mediocre.
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Old 11-03-2005   #131
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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan
He can't go into next year as "the guy" w/o legitimate challenge
Exactly! The Texans could have made a bid for Garcia or Holcombe or McMahon or Bledsoe. Why didn't they? Tony Banks is on a much lower level than these guys.

I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it. Remember back when Drew Henson was drafted and someone had to make a call to Big Dave to let him know that everything was kosher? I have a feeling that as long as Carr is around the Texans will never bring someone in to challenge him. Maybe it's the mentality of this organization and maybe they know something about Dave that we don't.
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Old 11-03-2005   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
While I'm not sold on Carr and may not be as patient as this middle camp is....its a fair point. Even with our total disaster of a coaching staff I don't have much confidence he will be more than "OK" to average.
This is a very valid point that is made even more critical because of the $8 million dollar factor. Do we want to spend that kind of money on 'hope?' The problem is compounded even more because we have so many areas of the team that need fixing and are probally going to need money thrown at them, so do we have the luxury of spending the $8 million on the 'unknown.'

Your point about Banks in your previous post is also valid, as-not only has Carr not been pushed by competition-he also has not had the benefit of seeing how another QB would do in certain situations. Again, these scenarios and many others all go back to Capers--what a rigid coach he is! This man will not bend or ever admit that he's wrong. Heck, we are all wrong sometime!!

Finally, we've got to quit 'down sizing' everything to fit the players--shoot, if we're going to lose, let's at least push a few buttons. It's past time to expect results from these players, only question is-are there aggressive plays in our 'arsenal?'...knowing Capers, probally not but then-that is one reason it is so frustrating we can't even do the simple stuff.
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Old 11-03-2005   #133
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
I have a theory, but the Carr apologists aren't going to like it...
Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".

And if you think that it's far-fetched that a coach or GM would believe they could win with David Carr at QB, remember that the mega-turd Ryan Leaf got not one, but two additional shots after flaming out in San Diego. Who knows, they may be right. As has been pointed out by the Supergenius, among others, many young QBs breakout after being exposed to better coaching.

So like it or not, David Carr will be back and starting for your Houston Texans in 2006. As distressing as that sounds, in your heart you know it's true. You can continue to whine and bemoan that for the rest of the season and throughout the offseason. You can decide not to renew your season tickets. Send McNair a nasty (yet anonymous) letter. Or you can just lay back and enjoy it. Won't change anything, because #8 will still be taking the snaps for your team.
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Old 11-03-2005   #134
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After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILBs go and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.

Last edited by SESupergenius; 11-03-2005 at 07:03 PM.
 
Old 11-03-2005   #135
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Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed. He was booed his first season with such superstar support as Damingo Grahm and Young, and Chester Pitts protecting him. James Allen in the backfield and Corey Bradford catching the ball. How did we ever miss the playoffs?

The second year was just as good. With Chester Pitts still playing left tackle, a big time free agent aquisition like ZachW and Stacey Mack. At the same time drafting the future of the Texans Seth Wand. And of course Corey Bradford catching the ball. What!? No Superbowl!? Has to be Carrs fault.

Third year. This is our year. Seth Wand now starts at left tackle(despite the vast improvement by Pitts) McKinney in the best shape of his life and the final piece of the O-line puzzle in Todd Wade. We have a running back who promised 2000 yards, and Corey Bradford catching the ball. Throw in a brand spanking new totally complicated blocking scheme that none of our line-men can understand or perform. Okay now we're cookin. Did I mention Corey Bradford? We still suck? It's all David's fualt. Get a Rope.

Fourth year. This Victor Riley guy has got to be a steller super star to beat out Seth Wand. Mckinney is getting better, Zach's position has been taken over by Brown, Wade is in his prime and worth every penny, a younger and more athletic D with such players as Greenwood and PBuc, and Corey Bradford is still in the line-up. Our misfourtune's are all Carrs's fault. He should be tarred and feathered.
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Old 11-03-2005   #136
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Ever since Carr was picked #1 overall he has been booed.
This is news to me.
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Old 11-03-2005   #137
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Originally Posted by SESupergenius
After reading all of this one comes to the conclusion that you all think it's Carrs fault for the ineptitude of this offense. Carr had upswing potential every year until this year. Why is that? Nobody can answer this.

The "conspiracy" theories are laughable. The implosion of the team was foreseeable well back into the offseason and Carr wasn't even remotely a part of that. No all of the sudden it's all Carrs fault. Try again kids, maybe you get it right the next time. I was drilled by people on this board for telling people how bad P-Buc is, how letting both ILB and all the moving and switching around was going to kill the gelling the defense was starting to get, how not getting addressing the oline was counterproductive to the offense and so on and so on. Yet here we are at 1-6 and this is all Carrs fault. Nice. You get rid of Carr, you still have an offensive line that is responsible for the majority of sacks on this team and take away Carrs sacks that he brings on himself, they would still lead the league. You'd still wouldn't have a legit 2nd WR that goes after a ball or helps out a QB. You still don't have TE that can deceive a defense. You still don't have an offensive coordinator that likes to open up the offense and give control to the QB. You still don't a CB to pair with Robinson. You still don't have a LB corps that can play both run and pass, and you still don't have good safeties.

It's easy to pour on the QB, but he's the last of our worries.
...so your'e saying that once all is 'perfect' in Texan Land, the real Carr will show up? Great, and you believe that because....??
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Old 11-03-2005   #138
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On a side note, not to derail this topic, but is anyone noticing how our offense has basically been stripped down (no screens, no quick hitches etc...) since Pendy took over and slowly he's building it back up.
 
Old 11-03-2005   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
This is news to me.
You dont remember? When Carr was picked over Harrington the spectators started Booing. Loudly.
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Old 11-03-2005   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Well, I have a theory...but the Carr haters aren't going to like it. My theory is that Bob McNair likes David Carr. A lot. He wants David to be the face of this franchise. Unlike others, McNair see intangibles in Carr like leadership and toughness. He appreciates the fact that David has been a standup guy throughout the tough times. McNair is not going to forget that kind of loyalty.

I don't think McNair will want to give Dom or Charley the boot. He wants this season to turn around. But if it doesn't, McNair will do what he has to do. Now here comes the part that some of you guys will find very upsetting. Bob McNair will choose the next HC and/or GM partly based upon the answer to the question, "Can you win with David Carr at QB?". And the winner will say, "Absolutely".
Love or hate Carr or anything in between IMO this is exactly right. Someone is going to give McNair not just the I can win with David Carr answer he is going to say he will unleash the real David Carr. Who the real David Carr is remains to be seen but IMO Lucky's crystal ball is spot on.
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