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Old 11-02-2005   #101
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starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts. There is a whole different mentality to a team moving downfield with 2:00 remaining than one with 2:38 and a couple of timeouts AND a 2:00 warning.

all of which doesn't negate the fact that as a franchise QB with more than 3 seasons under his belt Carr should have KNOWN to not run out of bounds in that particular set of circumstances. Yes it is minor. But its the minor things that makes the difference between a win and a loss sometimes.

Personally, I think I am really more trying to say this though, Carr just doesn't have the 'smarts' to be running a football team. It is just that simple. That play simply proves it. Which is really more my point than all the woulda, coulda, shoulda stuff. If it had been a RB, or WR and they ran out of bounds instead of staying inbounds and letting the clock run, this board would be calling them just what they deserve to be called, simple minded, or at best inexperienced. Yet golden boy Carr gets yet another free pass. I just don't understand that at all.

Carr made a mistake that could have quite simply caused us to lose that game. It is just that simple. And them's the facts.
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Old 11-02-2005   #102
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Originally Posted by thegr8fan
starting at 1st and 10 on their 27 and ONLY 2:00 remaining, there is NO WAY they call a single running play, much less 2 of them to start their way down field. Sorry Lucky, but thems the facts...
Now I know what :brickwall is for.

gr8, Crennel ran those plays to take that time off the clock. He ran once again at 1:32 left.

1-10-HST 39 (1:32) (Shotgun) 31-W.Green up the middle to HST 38 for 1 yard (99-R.Smith).

The Browns still had a timeout in their back pocket when Showtime deflected Dilfer's 4th down pass. They wasted way more time themselves than Carr did running out of bounds. What does that tell you? The Browns were trying to make sure the Texans didn't get another shot. They never wanted the extra time that you think Carr gave them.
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Old 11-02-2005   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
not to speak for Kaiser, but what Carr did wrong is run out of bounds for no gain and stopping the clock. He should have slid or went down INBOUNDS and let the clock continue to run.
See, I just view that as an "I am actively trying to find something (with minutes, hours, days of hindsight, or even that very second with a mind already trying to find things) to criticize" analysis. For an analogy--it was just funny how last year when DD broke off a 40 + yd run it was (a) only because the Titans let him do so even though Fisher said it wasn't true and (b) more to the point, selfish because he should have downed it short of the TD and ate up the clock. Carr was trying to get a 1st down with his feet (something he has done many times) or at least avoid the sack and get the ball closer to a 1st. I'd invite anyone to look back at the last three games and tell us this is really a below average QB play (there are some out there--you can keep your anti-Carr position--this just isn't one of them IMO). The play-by-play shows this wasn't the difference in time pressuring the Browns.
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Old 11-02-2005   #104
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the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.

and Lucky, your still clinging to a straw for a lifeboat. The reason the Browns HAD 1 timeout left is because they got the 2:00 stoppage and didn't need to use it before hand. Was their intent to run enough time off the clock so the Texans couldn't come back and kick yet another FG, if needed to tie it up YES. That is called smart football. Amazingly enough, my contention is that CARR should have been doing the same thing and NOT went out of bounds. Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.
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Old 11-02-2005   #105
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Originally Posted by thegr8fan
the only critique of Carr on that remark is that he isn't smart enough to do the right thing in that situation. I would make the same remark for any QB in any game with the exact same set of circumstances. Some of you Carr lovers allow his 'golden halo' to blind your usually non-partial analysis. The smart thing for ANY QB to do in that situation is to stay inbounds. It is just that simple.
It may be that simple that it is the smart thing to do, but I don't think it is that simple that the critque gets made. I don't know if you are refering to me as a Carr lover, but IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage and only a few would have been head's up enough to take as a sack and stay in bounds. I agree the smartest play would have been to slide in bounds even if it was a sack--I just disagree that it was a below average QB call. Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault. That's an honest inquiry for anyone--where should Carr or anyone else have been blamed more or less--feedback is appreciated.
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Old 11-02-2005   #106
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uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is.
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Old 11-02-2005   #107
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Originally Posted by thegr8fan
Why is it that you can see that the Browns were doing the smart thing, and Carr wasn't? Why is that such a huge monumentally challenging thing to observe simply due to the uniform they are wearing.
Because the Texans could not have run the clock down. It wasn't possible without getting another 1st down. Make that 2 more 1st downs. I think it's safe to say that had the Browns picked up 1 more 1st down & got into FG range, it would have been the Texans using their own TOs. And then you would have wanted as much time on that clock as possible.

See, there are no absolutes in that scenario. Furthermore, if Capers & Pendry actually wanted to burn clock at the 3:00 mark, they would have ran Davis up the middle. And they certainly would not have passed 1 down later. You want David to employ a strategy the coaches weren't following. You're not looking at the highway, because you can't take your eyes off the Carr in front of you.
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Old 11-02-2005   #108
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Originally Posted by thegr8fan
uh infantry, I have to say I have no idea what your question above is. I have read it a couple of times now and I know your trying to ask something, I just can't clarify what exactly it is.
That was ambiguous. There was an implied question of whether you were refering to me as a Carr lover. There was a more direct question of identifying individual bad plays by Carr. It refered to this thread:

infantry's Passing Break Down
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Old 11-02-2005   #109
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IMO that looked like a play a lot of QB's wouldn't have had called for them because they aren't that mobile or would have taken for a sack behind the line of scrimmage
I never said it was a smart call by the OC. It was actually a dumb call, IMHO. But if he had called yet another sweep or play action the crowd would have lynched them. Personally any running play at that point in the game would have been the smart call, IMHO.

Quote:
Look over my break down of the last three games and tell me where Carr should have garnered more fault.
I have been pretty quiet about critiqueing Carr lately. But the same old faults that he has had since 2002 are still there. Most of them mental ones. I don't think Carr is the worst QB in the league, although this year he is mighty close to that. But I also think he has as much blame for the teams failures as the other parts of the team that aren't working, like the O-line. Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes. That play being one of them.

He did make some pass's this last game that made me see a glimmer of hope for him. Course in the first half he was still gun shy and running when he didn't have too. But I actually will him a couple of 'Wows' to go along with his playing in the last game. The pass to Gaffney being one of them. Mathis for a TD. Bradford dropped some that a rookie would have caught, not Carrs fault. But most of those happened in the second half, after someone showed Carr at halftime that he didn't have a pass rush at all and needed to stay in the pocket and do the job of a QB, IMHO.

Some of it is completely on the coach's and their play calling. That sweep where he runs 5 yards back and 3 yards over to hand the ball to DD is the dumbest play in the book for our personel, IMHO. And usually resulted in no gain. So we lined up and ran it again, and again, and again. ***** play calling.

there are more than a few games that the coaching staff of the Texans have demonstrated that they have no concept of clock management, IMHO.

this started with me simply saying that the smart thing in that situation was for Carr to take a down inbounds. It was the smart thing to do. That wasn't meant to be a Carr bashing, it was meant to be an opinion on how to play smart football. Which is mostly mental, and I simply don't think Carr has the smarts to do those kinds of things. Heck it is still year 4 and someone had to actually tell him to throw the ball away instead of running out of bounds with it for a sack. I mean does someone have to tell him EVERYTHING that he should do correctly BEFORE he does it?
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Old 11-02-2005   #110
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no infantry I don't class you as a Carr lover. Usually your critiques are fair and unbiased.

and Lucky, I was typing my reply as you were typing yours. And in it listed a run by Davis and the Coach's lack of clock management.

individual plays by Carr that could be critiqued in the last game, most in the first half, I won't bother with. We won, I am perfectly OK with that. I just think that there were some things that could have been done by Carr, and the Coach's far better.

minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.
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Old 11-02-2005   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
Most of Carrs faults, IMHO, are mental errors or poor decisions. Same as they have always been with him. Whos fault that these have not been corrected, who the heck knows. We fired Palmer and that didn't change alot. So what is the fix for Carr? That is the million dollar question. I just am not going to give Carr a free pass for the mistakes that he makes.
IMO there are a lot of mental mistakes going on (Carr's included) and for a Caperism, poor execution. There is also a lot of pre-judgment, knee-jerk, totally incorrect (as aj has pointed out over the last three years, run run pass, analysis) and that is why I have started trying to look back at every passing play. The Carr haters and Carr lovers here haven't wanted to jump into the actual analysis pool by providing any feedback on that breakdown. Absent any commentary, I take both extreme sides (viewing myself as we haven't seen the best of Carr but I don't really know how high his best is) as not really being interested in discussion. Frankly, the we suck threads get pretty boring--actually discussing players and plays in a little more depth might keep it interesting until the next hope of a winning season. Either way, I will be in my seats, as will you, Lucky, aj, etc.

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minor things in the grand scheme but sometimes makes all the difference between a win and a loss.
And that says it IMO. 11 guys on offense. On a good day 60 opportunities. Right now each guy is having 2-3 bad plays. 25 bad plays on offense kills a team.
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Old 11-02-2005   #112
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I'll try and come back for your play by play analysis for the next game infantry. I do enjoy the reads. It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. I don't want to get into Capers habit of jotting notes to myself DURING the game, LOL. But I do enjoy the play by play breakdown you give. As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.

I had a conversation with one of our tailgate crew who was convinced that Chester Pitts was killing our O-line and was the whole problem/breakdown point. Sometimes I wonder if we are watching the same game. generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.

Next game we can critique the play by play though, I especially like that also.
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Old 11-02-2005   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
It is hard during the game to make notes to myself on time of play verses things I see happening live. ... As pointed out by aj, sometime seeing it live and then on tape to merge the right perspective is the best analysis, and I would have to agree with that.
I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.

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generalizations get passed around and sometimes become urban legends and won't go away.
That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.
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Old 11-03-2005   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
I try to just enjoy the games, but because we lack the game film, I am going to try to start concentrating more on the WR's since they are out of the game film. That is the big piece missing from reviewing on DVR. If only we could lobby for a fan game-film review with some die-hards.



That is exactly what made me start looking at each play. Lot's of generalizations get thrown around--for example lately that the pass protection is good, or at least improved. Well, looking back at the clock, 90% of the passes are out in under 2 seconds. That isn't normal. Most NFL O's it is more like 60-75% out in that time. That's not so much good OL work as scheme changes and those may really hamper the O. We'll see how it works this coming week.
I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.
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Old 11-03-2005   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
I tried to watch more of the WR's this past game and it was difficult even then so. But every time I saw DC roll out I did watch the WR"s and it was not so much that they were not getting open, it looked like they were either going through the motions or the DB's knew where they were running their route. It appears that if the Defense is not tricked by the roll out, the play is dead before it starts.
It is hard to tell for sure from the game tape (and hard for me to remember from the game specifically), but it appears folks need to remember even though there are often 4 receivers on the field, either 3 WR's and 1 TE or 2 WR's and 2 TE's, at least two and sometimes 3 of them are running routes on the opposite side of the field from the designed roll out and thus pretty much not legitimate options for receptions--they are just dragging coverage.
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Old 11-03-2005   #116
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You're foolish to think Carr had not shown his abilities with this horrendous line that gets easily pushed back into his pocket with only 4 guys rushing and a coaching staff that has pulled the reins in on this offense for many seasons now. What options do we have if we let Carr go? Draft another highly touted QB just so this line can tear him to shreads. I doubt very seriously that a guy like Leinart would stay upright for long in this system. Should we go ahead and let Carr go just like The Bucc did with Steve Young or the Falcons did with Farve?
Should we bring in some other veteran QB to compete with Banks, who pretty much did no better than Carr when he was in.

Trust me on this one, the way we are losing there are not going to be many players that we bring in that we won't have to overpay. Book it.
 
Old 11-03-2005   #117
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Old 11-03-2005   #118
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Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....
Actually Young played about a season and a half with the Buccs, so really get your facts straight. And he's never had a QB rating over 80 in the seasons he's played out of college before he went to the niners. He spent 3 seasons before he went to the niners and did squat. So you knew Young was going to be a Hall of Famer coming out of BYU and playing for Fresno? I guess you knew that Farve was going to be a Superbowl champ too when he was drafted by the Falcons. Fact of the matter is, Young spent time on very bad teams, he couldn't elevate those teams. Sound familiar?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Comparing David Carr to Brett Favre is pure sacrilege. Favre, due to Glanville's infinite wisdom, never got a shot with the Falcons. The moment Favre was given a chance at starting he delivered a beleaguered franchise from the doldrums and eventually led them to multiple Super Bowl and playoff appearances. Oh yeah, and I guess there is the fact that he has won multiple MVPs, led the NFL in passing and that little thing called a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Brett Favre....ok whatever....
Carr threw 3500 his 3rd year, farve was close to that. Farve didn't win a Superbowl until his 7th year in the league. Farve didn't have to start with an expansion team. I'm not saying that Carr=Farve, but I am saying that both Farve and Young's first few years are very comparable to Carr's. You think Young would still have been as good on the Buccs? NOT!!

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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Please everyone stop making excuses. Carr has been given a chance to show his mettle and has failed to do so in over 3 years of starting for an NFL team. Other teams would have jettisoned him like an escape pod over Tatooine long ago. We showed love, faith and patience in the past 3 years. Now its time for production. Put up or shut up time. Cowboy Up. Whatever tired cliche/buzz term you want to use. He has failed.
What chance has Carr been given? A merry-go-round offensive line, an expansion team with cast off players, weak drafts and sub-par coaching. Sure buddy he's had ALL the breaks in the world. Step back a bit and focus and what we have as a team as far as players.


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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
He lacks so many of the attributes needed to lead a team into the playoffs and to the Super Bowl. The only attribute he is bringing to the Texans at the moment are pretty boy good looks and a warm body. I will give Carr one positive remark at the moment and that he can take an **** whoopin. That is for sure. But the good QBs avoid them like the plague. Whether its his fault, coaching's fault, or the OL fault, he is shellshocked, has no confidence, does not have his team's confidence and is easily one of the 5 worst QBs in the league. But go ahead adn extend his contract. I am sure the guys in the locker room will love to hear that Carr is getting Pro Bowl money when its time for their own contracts to get reupped. If Carr is resigned you may as well get used to A.Johnson playing for someone else here in a year or two as well.....but at least we will have those great HEB commercials...Oh and please let me know what day Carr comes by and mows your lawn because its obvious he is doing something on the side for you to hold such blind misguided allegiance to him...
So we jettison Carr to bring in another QB to ge "shellshocked"?? Nice thinking. If we let the team run by you then we'd have an endless revolving door of QB's that go straight to the Ward with fright. Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
BTW I am a season ticket holder so I guess I take it more personally when this inferior product is put on the field year after year and were expected to fork out the big bread for tickets.
You don't have much on any other hardcore fan. I spent over 250 bucks for DirectTV just to watch this crud. And usually I go to 1 game a year, that'll add up to over $500 spent just to see one game. So please, don't belittle fans that are not ticket holders.
 
Old 11-03-2005   #119
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Comparing David Carr to Steve Young is ridiculous. That is like comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce. Young had success in BYU, and the USFL before his time with the Bucs. He was drafted by Tampa Bay in the supplemental draft and started ONE YEAR for the Bucs, the worst team in the league at that time. He played ONE YEAR, Carr has now started OVER THREE YEARS for the Texans. Oh and then I guess there is the fact that Steve Young holds numerable NFL passing records as well as a Super Bowl ring. But sure, David Carr = Steve Young.....ok whatever....
Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?
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Old 11-03-2005   #120
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Good lord, can people understand a comparison about one thing, i.e. playing for a crud team and the possibility of going on to greater things, is not a declaration of total equality. A response to the the actual point might be something like--fact is Young had it far easier and had much longer to develop than Carr. He basically sat one year in Tampa and then started one year before getting shipped off to San Francisco to sit and learn for four years behind Joe Montana. You're right, it is silly to compare the bonsai growth he went thru to Carr's trial by fire.

You have put a lot of effort into your posts about Carr, how about going back to the last game and identifying some specific plays where he performed below average under the circumstances?
...good post! IMO, we won't know what we have in Carr until we put some good players around him and get him a coach that understands the problem and has a clue how to correct them. In other words, we need to take all the excuses away and see what Carr can or can't do--we need to know!!!!!!
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