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Old 10-31-2005   #61
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Originally Posted by Brando
No I have a better plan... BAN HIM! J/K I can dream right? I'll give in and put him on ignore like edo says he is probably not even a fan. I know he used to be a Colt fan and joined the same week as we played the Colts. So I say he is a Colt troll and I will put him on ignore.
Some posters can really get under the skin, but this MB would sure be boring if we all agreed with each other.
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Old 10-31-2005   #62
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Originally Posted by Texan Gal 312
For all of you who think it is all Carr's fault or think he can not succeed, I have two words -Drew Brees - He was absolutely being toasted in San Diego, probably much worse than Carr is here. They even drafted a new quarterback, then Drew goes to the Pro Bowl. Somebody tell me, what happened ? Did he suddenly "get it"? Did he from one year to the next learn to read defenses ? Did they bring in a new offensive coordinator ?

I would say they somehow got better talent around him. They also had one major stroke of genius named Antonio Gates. Just think if they would have used the Rivers pick on another playmaker. I would mention LT but he was there when Brees was being toasted.
I agree with you except for two undeniable things:
- Brees did not carry 1st pick money
- Competition is a tested idea that works
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Old 10-31-2005   #63
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
I agree with you except for two undeniable things:
- Brees did not carry 1st pick money
- Competition is a tested idea that works
I'd change that to "A fair, real competition is a tested idea that works". I'm not sure our staff could do that.

Remember that training camp "competition" for left tackle when the coaches gave the job to Riley on the second day? Knowing what we fans know now, what do you think the players thought of that switch? They had to recognize that Riley didn't have the goods, and still they tell Carr that this guy has got his back. David must have wondered what was going on, to say nothing of the other players. Do you think they wondered about their futures if coaches would replace players not based on performance? It's not like Wand is anything but a solid citizen on or off the field. I've never read about any off field problems, unless I missed them.

How about Hollings? We released players that were competing for a roster spot with him. Was that a fair competition? I don't see him ever producing for this team.

Bradford as #2 receiver? This isn't as cut and dried, but at some point don't you have to sit him to show that performance matters? Gafney and Armstrong have been competing for more minutes for a long time.

Competition is good, as long as it's competition in more than name only - otherwise coaches risk losing the players.
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Old 11-01-2005   #64
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Originally Posted by Vinny
I put up some comments on every play early on here and spent a good 2 - 3 hours on it. I took time to watch everything in slow motion and made sure to point out that I was just commenting on the action on the field and stated clearly I wasnt "grading tape". The reason I pulled it was because within 3 minutes there were 3 posters tearing the comments apart. There was no way any of those guys took the time to look at the tape and made comments about how wrong I was. If someone is going to take the time to break down each snap then people should be good enough to go look and see what they are talking about before they comment on it.

On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.
Let me clarify a bit...I probably should have noted this in the original post...There are a very few people who do spend a large amount of time and come up with some quality insights based on game film. I agree entirely that most people don't actually take the time to study things in order to make good assumptions, which was one of the reasons for the original post.

The biggest things that we can pull from TV tape is an individual players technique. Does an OL get beat when he engages, was the exchange from C to QB clean? Those are the best questions you can answer. That being said one of the few things you can make some educated guesses on are the OL and RB play and the defensive front 7. It's very tough to get a good feel for the periphery of the field. I think that most of us realize that and tend to qualify our opinons to take that into account.

The reason that I posted originally was that I guess I get a bit miffed when you continually see posts that say things like "this guys is horrible...no future in the league" when the fact is that we really don't know. I said earlier that I do like Carr and hope he does well, but if we can build around him and he can't progress he needs to move on. To date we have not been successful at putting the team together around him.
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Old 11-01-2005   #65
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Originally Posted by Runner
I'd change that to "A fair, real competition is a tested idea that works". I'm not sure our staff could do that.

Remember that training camp "competition" for left tackle when the coaches gave the job to Riley on the second day? Knowing what we fans know now, what do you think the players thought of that switch? They had to recognize that Riley didn't have the goods, and still they tell Carr that this guy has got his back. David must have wondered what was going on, to say nothing of the other players. Do you think they wondered about their futures if coaches would replace players not based on performance? It's not like Wand is anything but a solid citizen on or off the field. I've never read about any off field problems, unless I missed them.

How about Hollings? We released players that were competing for a roster spot with him. Was that a fair competition? I don't see him ever producing for this team.

Bradford as #2 receiver? This isn't as cut and dried, but at some point don't you have to sit him to show that performance matters? Gafney and Armstrong have been competing for more minutes for a long time.

Competition is good, as long as it's competition in more than name only - otherwise coaches risk losing the players.
Great points. We've seen it over and over again with this organization. They put players on the field/roster based on where they were drafted or how much they are paid.

Bradford and Riley were the two big free agent signings that were supposed to address 2 huge needs for this team. Now neither is starting.

Last edited by the wonger need food; 11-01-2005 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 11-01-2005   #66
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Also, if you guys don't like wonger you need to put him on ignore. He isn't running around calling posters names or anything.

Awesome Awesome .... I should read the fine print more often because I didn't even know this was possible .....


Hey wonger .... how about posting another "Carr Sucks" message so I can make sure this works .....
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Old 11-01-2005   #67
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
Great points. We've seen it over and over again with this organization. They put players on the field/roster based on where they were drafted or how much they are paid.
Really?--have any examples and substantiation for that?

League minimum Riley starting over 3rd round Wand--nope that doesn't fit.
League minimum Riley taking playing time from $25 mil Wade--nope that doesn't fit.
4th rounder DD taking the starting job from FA acquisition Mack--nope that doesn't fit.
2nd rounder Hollings and 3rd rounder Morency taking all those snaps away from 4th rounder DD (oops that hasn't happened)--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Faggins starting over 1st rounder Buchanon--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Brown starting over 4th rounder Earl--nope that doesn't fit.

Where exactly are all these players who are out on the field because of where they were drafted or the amount of money they are making vs. that they are best at their position?
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Old 11-01-2005   #68
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Really?--have any examples and substantiation for that?

League minimum Riley starting over 3rd round Wand--nope that doesn't fit.
League minimum Riley taking playing time from $25 mil Wade--nope that doesn't fit.
4th rounder DD taking the starting job from FA acquisition Mack--nope that doesn't fit.
2nd rounder Hollings and 3rd rounder Morency taking all those snaps away from 4th rounder DD (oops that hasn't happened)--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Faggins starting over 1st rounder Buchanon--nope that doesn't fit.
6th rounder Brown starting over 4th rounder Earl--nope that doesn't fit.

Where exactly are all these players who are out on the field because of where they were drafted or the amount of money they are making vs. that they are best at their position?
Riley fits perfectly. He was brought in as one of the big free agent signings and was put into the starting job almost immediately.

Hollings fits perfectly. They spent a 2nd round draft pick on the guy. He has no business being on this or any other roster.

Brown is starting over Earl because Earl was hurt during camp. These are both 2nd day guys so their situation is not really applicable.

Faggins is starting over Buchanon because Buchanon showed the entire world what a coward he was in week 2. If that wasn't caught on tape he might still be starting.

Davis over Mack was a no-brainer after Mack was injured.

Basically, the coaching staff has to be beaten over the head before making any changes. Bradford and Riley are perfect examples of this.
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Old 11-01-2005   #69
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thanks wonger .... have a nice life
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Old 11-01-2005   #70
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
Riley fits perfectly. He was brought in as one of the big free agent signings and was put into the starting job almost immediately.

Hollings fits perfectly. They spent a 2nd round draft pick on the guy. He has no business being on this or any other roster.

Basically, the coaching staff has to be beaten over the head before making any changes. Bradford and Riley are perfect examples of this.
That doesn't prove anything to do with money and draft picks being the motivation for the Texans personnel decisions. In fact, Bradford and Riley are counter examples of your assertion--Bradford is one they have inexplicably held on to, but he is not a draft pick or a big money guy and he has cut into the playing time of 33rd overall Gaffney and now 4th rounder Mathis. That example goes completely against you. Riley is a league minimum guy (the only thing big about his signing was his belly) so there is no way he can be proof of money or draft picks being the motivating factor especially given that they have tried to bench a 3rd rounder in favor of him and a $25 mil player. If anything Riley is even a horrible example of the coaches having to be beaten over the head before making changes--as you said he was almost handed the starting job without proof--that would be flighty decision making not hard headed. Even Hollings isn't a good example--if the coaches were trying to justify his pick, they would have him getting some carries spelling DD.

Where is there a single example of a player getting playing time because of their draft position or contract (your original assertion) rather than being better than the next guy on the depth chart?
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Old 11-01-2005   #71
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Where is there a single example of a player getting playing time because of their draft position or contract (your original assertion) rather than being better than the next guy on the depth chart?
I should have included their "profile" or "status" or whatever you want to call it. Just wasn't sure how to word it. My point was that PR seems to override winning...

1) Riley starting immediately because he was signed to solve the LT problems.
2) Bradford was signed to solve the #2 receiver problem and started the first 6 games.
3) Hollings on the roster.
4) Maybe Greenwood. It's hard to say if there is someone better than him on the roster, but he hasn't done a whole lot given how much money he makes.
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Old 11-01-2005   #72
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
My point was that PR seems to override winning...

1) Riley starting immediately because he was signed to solve the LT problems.
2) Bradford was signed to solve the #2 receiver problem and started the first 6 games.
3) Hollings on the roster.
I just don't see where you get the PR out of this. First, it is revising history to say Riley was brought here to be the LT even. That wasn't the announcement when he was signed. He was viewed as an upgrade on Marcus Spears as a veteran backup for the tackles. Somewhere along the way Wand did something that got him ditched.

How can you even begin to argue Bradford was signed to solve the #2 WR position--he was the #2 WR that was the problem they were trying to upgrade. Did they fail to upgrade him?--absolutely, but it wasn't like there was PR that signing Bradford was going to solve the problem of having Bradford.

PR hype on Hollings?--not in at least two years. Don't know who you think would have contributed instead for the roster spot, but I really don't see who was cut that would have gotten any playing time so what does it matter?

Don't get me wrong--I don't like the decisions made on Bradford or Riley or letting Glenn go for example--I just don't see where they are PR related so much as just plain poor judgment (Bradford) or punishment for something we don't know about (pure conjecture--Wand).
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Old 11-01-2005   #73
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Seems to me you guys have gotten a little off topic here. Isn't this thread about Carr not the coaching staff's inability to evaluate talent at other positions for keeping them on the roster let alone playing time?
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Old 11-01-2005   #74
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Seems to me you guys have gotten a little off topic here. Isn't this thread about Carr not the coaching staff's inability to evaluate talent at other positions for keeping them on the roster let alone playing time?
At least it stayed with football talk as it evolved. We should all be thankful for that.
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Old 11-02-2005   #75
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver

Next year we need Ragone starting or maybe a quality FA QB (Kitna? Brad Johnson?) start the season as QB with a revamped offensive line (Signing Tra Thomas and drafting D'Brickashaw Ferguson would make our OL go from being a weakness to a strength). Draft a Tight End in the 2nd Round. Then we can draft a franchise quarterback in '07 with Ben Olson, Drew Olson and Vince Young being among possible choices. By '07 we could have a nice offensive nucleus to go with a young QB. If we catch lightning in a barrel maybe we hit the playoffs in '07 but like '08. With Carr, we have no chance at anything and he lost his teammates faith and respect LONG AGO. Stick a fork in him, he is done.:brickwall :brickwall

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What could starting Dave Ragone or bringing in Brad Johnson or John Kitna possibly do to help this team? Dave Ragone is not very talented except against NFL-Europe quality players.
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Old 11-02-2005   #76
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Anyone who thinks Carr looked good this past Sunday v. Browns really needs to lay off the Battle Red Kool Aid.
He still has no pocket presence (btw the line did a pretty damn good job even though against the Browns).
He still lacks the mental acumen required to be a winning starting NFL quarterback.
He still locks onto one receiver and telegraphs his passes.
He still does not throw the ball away when he is out of the pocket to avoid a sack.
He still can not read coverages.
He still can not audible into anything other than a run.
He still seems to lack leadership over the team in his 4th year as QB.
He still can not seem to throw a quality short pass into the middle of the field over the Offensive Line because his delivery is so inherently flawed.
He still has no ability to carry out a quality fake on play action calls whether they be run or pass. He gives about the same effort with fakes that Warren Moon did for years, and that aint a compliment.
He still rarely uses his Tight End.
He still plays like a Rookie essentially.
David's pocket presence is not great but it is getting better, and this is like the third game in four years that pass protection has been decent.
David is as tough and competitive as any QB in the league.
He does sometimes lock onto a receiver but when the OC only gives you two potential receivers on any given play it's hard not to, especially when one is Bradford who runs terrible routes and won't catch an open pass anyways.
He threw the ball away several times last game, hence his 50% completions.
He can read coverages when he has time, the main problem is the poor routes that OC constructs for him to throw to.
He is not allowed to audible to anything but a run.
David shows leadership by example and his toughness. Not many other QBs will get sacked as many times as him and still run and dive head-first into oncoming LBs to pick up a first down.
He can throw short balls over the middle, the OC rarely has routes for that other than a dump down to Davis, which I've never seen him deliver a bad throw on.
He does give pretty good play action fakes, I've seen several times where he's picked up a clutch first down running himself after tricking the entire defense with a play action fake.
The OC doesn't put him in a position to use TEs, they have blocking TEs that do nothing but block and don't run routes.
David plays like a man with a rookie of an OC.
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Old 11-02-2005   #77
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Originally Posted by HoneymoonIsOver
Next year we need Ragone starting or maybe a quality FA QB (Kitna? Brad Johnson?)
Quality FA does not equal Brad Johnson or Kitna. I will take Carr everyday of the week over either of these two.
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Old 11-02-2005   #78
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David may have no OLine, no WR's and an awful coaching staff, but what was he doing running out of bounds with three minutes left in the game? I would think that he would understand time, score and situation for the money we are spending on him.

These are the type of things that make me and I am sure his cohorts scratch their head.
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Old 11-02-2005   #79
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I would think that he would understand time, score and situation for the money we are spending on him.
Do you understand the time, score, & situation? The games was tied, it wasn't a gimme FG, and the Texans might have needed as much time on the clock as possible if Brown had missed the FG and the Browns had kicked one. Are you going to ride Joe Pendry's case for calling a pass on the following down? Was a Davis left tackle run in order?

Man, you guys are reaching for stuff this week.
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Old 11-02-2005   #80
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Originally Posted by Lucky
Do you understand the time, score, & situation? The games was tied, it wasn't a gimme FG, and the Texans might have needed as much time on the clock as possible if Brown had missed the FG and the Browns had kicked one. Are you going to ride Joe Pendry's case for calling a pass on the following down? Was a Davis left tackle run in order?

Man, you guys are reaching for stuff this week.
We were at the 22 yard line and it would have been third and five. So you would actually play the clock that way? Forget Carr for a second and let me know if the time, score and situation were the same and QB X was running for the sideline you would want him to go out of bounds?
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