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Old 10-31-2005   #41
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Originally Posted by The Great One
As far as the topic is concerned. We would have to have several games in which Carr received this much time to throw before I could REALLY judge him on HIS abilities as a QB. There just isn't a large enough body of work to establish an accurate assessment at this point. There are too many other factors weighing down his performance from week-to-week.
Nothing illustrates the descrepancy in the talent of Carr's team mates compared to Plumber's better than TE - Carr thru a better pass to Rivers, which the TE tipped and was therefor subsequently intercepted, while Plumbers's pass to his TE in the EZ was way off the target but the TE
makes a spectacular one-handed catch. In the stats, its an interception for
Carr but a TD pass for Plumber. Thens there's WR Rob Smith and the Broncos OL. I dunno....maybe someday Carr will be surrrounded by that kind of talent, if not here hopefully else where.
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Old 10-31-2005   #42
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TE in the EZ was way off the target but the TE
makes a spectacular one-handed catch.
Billy Miller was our pass catching TE, but he plays for the Browns now. We don't have a TE that could be called a pass catcher. But that really just shows yet another poor choice by our coach's on the roster, IMHO.

As for the Carr/TE pass for an INT. The TE was at the height of his jump and it just went through his hands. he actually was covered pretty well and it wasn't a good choice for a pass to begin with, IMHO. Carr is lucky that the TE did actually tip it, and the Brown player didn't intercept it in front of the TE. Bad luck, or as pointed out above, poor decision by Carr on a target, was why that INT happened.
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Old 10-31-2005   #43
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Originally Posted by aj.
When you're in the stands and you can see the QB, the coverage, and the receiver(s) in their route(s) at the same time, you can see the things related to 'vision' and 'timing' and 'decision making' that are next to impossible to see on television without a precise replay.

When you're in the stands, you can miss some things too. There's too much going on at once to be able to see everything. That's why I typically use one to supplement the other before I praise or criticize anything other than the obvious.

Carr wasn't horrible yesterday but he sure wasn't great either. I'd like to see him in a different system -- that's why I wouldn't be opposed to the two year extension. That said, he has some issues that he needs to overcome too - things that aren't related to how far he can throw a ball or how fast he can run. It's not all the o-line or the system or the WR corps. Some of it is on him.
Good point, AJ. I entirely agree that Carr has some issues, and like I said, he may never be more than a good back up. I do think that many of the issues relate to his introduction to the NFL (read Coaching and Development). My opinion, for what it's worth, is that with the right coaching support he has the potential to be pretty good.

I love watching the games on TV, but I do get frustrated be cause the camera views limit you to what the producers think you want to see. Watching in person is a great way to measure your team, you can select a couple plays to focus on the line, receivers, a specific player or you can get the big picture. Like you pointed out it's easy to miss things live as well.

I would be very intrested to be a fly on the wall during the post-game tape session. You go thru your position review, get your grades, and see the whole tape from the team prespective. I think it would be pretty enlightening to sit thru that if your really intrested in seeing where execution and gameplan suceed or fail.
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Old 10-31-2005   #44
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Originally Posted by markbeth
were he found bradford(who droped it).

Hmmm Have I heard that before?
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Old 10-31-2005   #45
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It would also help if the coaches put the right receivers out there to help give Carr some confidence. Bradford aint doing it and if you notice when Armstrong and Gaffney took over the offense started moving.
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Old 10-31-2005   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brando
Correction he made at least 2 great passes, the one to Mathis and the one over the middle to Gaffney. Believe me, I have started to question his decisions and he still stepped into a couple of sacks.

Starting a thread like this after we won just shows how negative you are.
I'll give you the one to Gaffney also. So he had two pretty good passes against one of the worst defenses in the NFL.... with plenty of time to throw most of the day.

The guy is not a playmaker at the position like the great (or even good) ones are. If you put Favre or Manning or Palmer or even Leftwich on this team right now, they would figure out a way to pass for over 200 yards every once in a while. This guy has (1) 200 yard passing game in his past 15. One. Uno. And has multiple TD's once (2 total against Tennessee) in that same span.

It's time to stop making excuses for the guy... he is a below-average QB.
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Old 10-31-2005   #47
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Originally Posted by thegr8fan
As for the Carr/TE pass for an INT. The TE was at the height of his jump and it just went through his hands. he actually was covered pretty well and it wasn't a good choice for a pass to begin with, IMHO. Carr is lucky that the TE did actually tip it, and the Brown player didn't intercept it in front of the TE. Bad luck, or as pointed out above, poor decision by Carr on a target, was why that INT happened.
"Went through his hands" is the operative & key phrase, so how you get from
that to say Carr was in anyway lucky on that particular play is beyond me ? He was unlucky not to have a TE like lucky Bronco QB Plumber had who made a play on the QBs pass for a TD. This the NFL, these guys are supposed to make a play on a pass like the one that Rivers didn't.
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Old 10-31-2005   #48
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Originally Posted by nunusguy
"Went through his hands" is the operative & key phrase, so how you get from
that to say Carr was in anyway lucky on that particular play is beyond me ? He was unlucky not to have a TE like lucky Bronco QB Plumber had who made a play on the QBs pass for a TD. This the NFL, these guys are supposed to make a play on a pass like the one that Rivers didn't.
Two words David Thomas
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Old 10-31-2005   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Man
I guess my point is that we tend to make some pretty broad statements (sometimes borderline rude) about a players ability on very limited information. Example...David Carr. Every time I see some one post Carr holds the ball to long I wonder if they were at the game or just watching TV so they can tell if ANYBODY was actually kinda open. Just to let you know it's pretty tough to actually tell if someone is "locking in" on a receiver from most of the TV edits. It's also not uncommon to have a play with only a primary option and one safety valve.
I absolutely agree that we get a lot of pretty broad and unsubstantiated statements. What is worse is many times they get parroted around as if they are commonly accepted fact. Logic doesn't even apply to many of them, for instance how do you criticize Carr for locking onto his primary when the ball is coming out of his hand in under 2 seconds. That is drop and throw, not read #1, read #2, read #3.

Quote:
Even fewer people actually have access to coaches tapes which show the whole field and allow you to see the big picture. I get a chuckle out of people that TiVo the edited broadcast and "break down the game" on the boards here.
Hey, we have to work with what we have. I am posting another thread on the Seahawks game, but obviously with the huge caveat that we can't see what is happening with the WR's down field which leaves a huge hole on judging Carr's performance. Even without the game tape I do think there is plenty to analyze in the broadcast.
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Old 10-31-2005   #50
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Hey, we have to work with what we have. I am posting another thread on the Seahawks game, but obviously with the huge caveat that we can't see what is happening with the WR's down field which leaves a huge hole on judging Carr's performance. Even without the game tape I do think there is plenty to analyze in the broadcast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Man
I get a chuckle out of people that TiVo the edited broadcast and "break down the game" on the boards here.

You're right, we have to work with what we have. However, as has been stated we can't see everything on a recording from the TV broadcast. We also don't know exactly what play was called. For instance on the offensive side we don't know the exact play, what routes the receivers were running, who has blitz pick-up, what the o-line call was, etc. We make educated guesses, but we still don't know all of this. However, if someone disagrees with the original poster who "broke down tape", the original poster many times gets angry and goes on a diatribe about how he looked at the tape and knows what's going on, and until the second poster "breaks down tape" his opinion is worthless.

I find this funny, like J-Man said earlier, and I don't get too worked up about it anymore.

Here is one example. I don't remember exactly what game it was, but it was on a sack play. Either Pitts or Riley was getting blamed on this board for giving up the sack. I asked some of the players I know what happened. I'm paraphrasing, but they said something like "McKinney made the line call, but he made the wrong call. Pitts knew it was the wrong call, and ignored the call and performed his responsibility as if McKinney had made the correct call. Riley didn't know it was the wrong call (inexperience in the system) and did what McKinney called." Obviously there was a breakdown in communication, but who's "fault" was this sack? The guy who made the wrong call? The guy who ignored the call? The guy who didn't know the system well enough to do the "right" thing? The coaches for not having the line coached better? Who saw any of this "breaking down film"?

Let's not take our own opinions too seriously.


I also asked these guys what would have happened if Wand had been in there. They thought he would have done the same thing as Pitts, ignored the call and done the "right" thing - because they did so last year. Pitts and Wand would have played together and the play may have had more success.

This is an example of the line gelling, and why Pitts at guard and Wand at tackle should have been where we started at the beginning of the season. We threw away all of the hard earned o-line teamwork experience last year, because Pendry started Riley over Wand. We've all seen how good Riley is - not near as good as Wand last year.

Last edited by Runner; 10-31-2005 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 10-31-2005   #51
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.
Dont make excuses for carr.Hes not the qb that we need.Everyone is making him out to be better then he really is.Come on.4 years and he still sucks...We need a whole new team and coach..
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Old 10-31-2005   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brando
I'm not making excuses, just tired of the same ol negative, our team sucks attitude from you. I don't care if it was a bad team we beat. At least we won and we are not going to go 0-16. I don't care if Carr only completed 50%(which isn't that bad by the way) of his passes(remember Bradford dropped 3) and threw 1 int(Rivers should have caught that one). We may have a long way to go but a win is a win. Every since you have come on here it's been negative. I guess I am a little tired of the card that you play and it is very old. Not once have you posted a positive comment.
Facts are facts my friend. I apologize for not living in your fantasy world where David Carr and his offense is at least respectable. The fact is that this is one of the worst offenses in the modern history of the NFL and Carr is its leader by default.
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Old 10-31-2005   #53
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Originally Posted by Brando
I am just saying I am tired of your negativity.
Go Texans!
Me to. That's why he is on my ignor list. One of the best things I have done. I like folks that have opinions and don't just dog the team. If they don't like the team that badly they should just hike their sorry butts over to some other team who is winning. Then they can be happy. I am SURE the reply will be "I am a good fan". Frankly, I doubt this type of poster really is a fan of the team. I suspect they are more a fan of hate and discontent. Do we have issues.....you bet, big time, but NOTHING is ever ALL wrong like some would have you believe. These types just like to stew in their own dirty diaphers and try to get everyone else smelling the same stuff they are.
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Old 10-31-2005   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner
You're right, we have to work with what we have. However, as has been stated we can't see everything on a recording from the TV broadcast. We also don't know exactly what play was called. For instance on the offensive side we don't know the exact play, what routes the receivers were running, who has blitz pick-up, what the o-line call was, etc. We make educated guesses, but we still don't know all of this. However, if someone disagrees with the original poster who "broke down tape", the original poster many times gets angry and goes on a diatribe about how he looked at the tape and knows what's going on, and until the second poster "breaks down tape" his opinion is worthless.
I put up some comments on every play early on here and spent a good 2 - 3 hours on it. I took time to watch everything in slow motion and made sure to point out that I was just commenting on the action on the field and stated clearly I wasn’t "grading tape". The reason I pulled it was because within 3 minutes there were 3 posters tearing the comments apart. There was no way any of those guys took the time to look at the tape and made comments about how wrong I was. If someone is going to take the time to break down each snap then people should be good enough to go look and see what they are talking about before they comment on it.

On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.
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Old 10-31-2005   #55
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For all of you who think it is all Carr's fault or think he can not succeed, I have two words -Drew Brees - He was absolutely being toasted in San Diego, probably much worse than Carr is here. They even drafted a new quarterback, then Drew goes to the Pro Bowl. Somebody tell me, what happened ? Did he suddenly "get it"? Did he from one year to the next learn to read defenses ? Did they bring in a new offensive coordinator ?

I would say they somehow got better talent around him. They also had one major stroke of genius named Antonio Gates. Just think if they would have used the Rivers pick on another playmaker. I would mention LT but he was there when Brees was being toasted.
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Old 10-31-2005   #56
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Also, if you guys don't like wonger you need to put him on ignore. He isn't running around calling posters names or anything.
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Old 10-31-2005   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny

On my stuff at hpf I just felt that the person went out of his way to pick on one player and I had a hard time with that since I thought it was unfair.
Actually, I didn't see your stuff on HPF - I didn't know these guys were talking about a specific post at all, if that's what they were talking about. I was speaking more in general that none of us, including me, really, really know what is going on down on the field. Granted studying the replays gives a person a leg up, because there is too much to see all at once, and I've been known to look at plays 2-3 times also. It helps to take a serious look at replays. I think we all just need to calm down at times and realize that we might be wrong - this is a discussion board after all. I like to treat this board like I'm hanging out with the guys at the bar talking football. It gets so vituperative here sometimes that if I was in that bar I'd be changing tables or leaving.

This isn't directed at any one person; just a general comment.
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Old 10-31-2005   #58
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I was just clearing up my share since I do it often. I always point out that I have zero clue to assignments and only comment on what I can see.
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Old 10-31-2005   #59
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And now, back to football.

How 'bout them Texans
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Old 10-31-2005   #60
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Originally Posted by the wonger need food
So, what's Carr's excuse today? He had plenty of time to throw today and still ran himself into sacks while looking completely confused the entire game.

And a note to Big Dave.... the opposing team knows that every time you audible it is a run off left tackle. Try to change it up every once in a while.
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