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Old 10-18-2005   #21
Keldar
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See.....I just don't think our talent is that good after all. This year has really opened my eyes to some stinky players. I'm gonna put my opinion out on a limb, and list all Texans players that I feel would start for a majority of other teams.

Chris Brown
Chad Stanley
David Carr
Domanick Davis
Andre Johnson
Dunta Robinson

(crickets)

(crickets)

See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.
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Old 10-18-2005   #22
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Originally Posted by Keldar
See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.
I think you're wrong, though, but I respect your opinion. The rest of our team would definitely never rank in the top 10 players at their position, but would definitely start on any number of teams.

For example, Coleman could start at FS, Walker, Payne, and Smith could all start for other teams, Norris is a starting quality FB, Wiegart and Pitts are both starting caliber Gs, Wade was a starting quality Tackle (until we altered him), Greenwood is a starter (started for one of the best Ds last year in Miami).
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Old 10-18-2005   #23
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Originally Posted by gtexan02
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? In the upcoming draft we need to trade our 1st pick in the draft away for the 3rd or 4th pick, pick up an extra 2nd rounder or an extra 1st for next year, and draft the best LT in the draft. We then drop McKinney, and sign a proven center. We then start Rookie Pitts FA Wiegart Wade, and with good coaching, I promise you this line could perform very well. Look at Pittsburg, Grimm turned a bunch of no names into one of the best lines in the league. Look at Indy, that OL coach is famous, and he worked miracles. Manning hasnt been touched all season. The point Im trying to make is that there is no reason to spend more than our top pick on OL. With ANY FA acquisitions (and I odn't mean Riley type aditions--good players. And if we pick up a good, expensive LT from another team we wouldnt even have to use our 1st pick) we could turn our poor oline into above average.

Then I believe we already are scheduled to have 2 2nd day choices, so I say we pick defense and TE. There is no longer a need to draft WR. With a legitimate TE and the more improved Gaffney, plus the maturing mathis, we could easily drop bradford and still have a decent receiving corps. PLUS, elite WRs become FAs every single season. Coles, Moss, TO, S. Moss, Burress, Mason, Muhammad, have all switched teams recently, and it wouldn't be hard for us to get someone of their caliber. Anyway, I think this is a coaching issue first and foremost. We have talented players. i STILL think Babin and Pburnt have capabilities. I mean, look at where Pburnt went from - Norv turner to Dom Capers---no wonder he looks burnt. With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!
Tell me where to buy whatever it is you're smoking. The o-line is a shambles, and the defense needs more than 1 or 2 players to revive it, also. Of course, a coaching staff change might revive everyone.
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Old 10-19-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
Though coaching can do a lot, I am not sure that the success of those players is soley due to coaching. .
It's not soley on the coaches but, if you have a sharp coach that has the teams respect, the team will put out 110% for him. If you have a dumb@$$ coach who has no respect, the team will lay down and NOT produce for him. This is what has happened in the Texan organization.

bobby 119C :brickwall
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Old 10-19-2005   #25
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You guys have fantastic talent. And I assure you the Colts are not taking this game lightly. You guys are due for a break out performance. And we have teams very emotionally into beating us now.

I think you have a very good team - but your coaches suck, you need new ones. Heck even we punted Fangio out of town once for stinking the place up.

Theres a joke around here - give Fangio enough pro-bowlers and he will put together a pretty decent team.

Good luck! (when not playing The Blue)

Last edited by BlueBlood; 10-19-2005 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 10-19-2005   #26
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The Texans have retained some talent, but they have let much more slip away. The one move Casserly didn't make that saved the day. Trading away the Texans first round picks for the next two years to get Orlando Pace. There is no doubt we would have gotten the bad end of that deal. Just like the P-buc deal.

Anyway, I think the Texans will go 0-16 if they contunie with their current playing philosophy. You have to fgure that if the coach does not turn these guys around soon, then once we hit say 0-11 or 0-12 this team will already be making there January vaction plans. They will be at the final games in body but not in spirit. So I say the next 4-5 games are crucial to us winning a game this year.
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Old 10-19-2005   #27
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we didnt have talent to begin with we got peoples leftovers.

Sharper didnt look sensational against us, Glenn has given up plays for the cowboys. they are serviceable starters no real talent.

The talent we lost Steve Foley and Jeff Posey. thats about it...

Gary Walker has not made it thru a single season after '02 without getting injured. Seth Payne is serviceable but not really a talented D lineman... TJ has potential, but has not altered his high approach. relying on upper body strength, not getting lower and driving with his legs. Robaire is our one of our few free agent talents.

Linebackers, we have Peek, Anderson I think is good as well. Greenwood reminds me of foreman. always around the ball but never making the tackle.

Corners Dunta A fabulous Corner, Buchanon hot and cold not physical enough for my liking he tries to be a finesse corner. Faggins a backup anywhere else gets turned around way to easily and relys on the receiver more than instinct.

Safeties, CC brown looks good at times but hes not an intimidating strong safety. Coleman plays a decent free safety.

QB Carr is talent

WR - Only AJ would be a starter anywhere else... Gaff, Bradford, Armstrong all 3rd and 4th receivers... Mathis looks like he has loads of talent. just lacks knowledge of the routes.

TE - no talent Miller was terrible and the only reason he looked halfway decent is because no one else at the time looked good at all.

OL - Pitts is talent, Hogdon looks like a better center than McKinney, who cant even block a man 1 on 1. Wiegart plays tentative and afraid of injury. Wand could prolly play better guard than Wiegart. Wade absolutely a waste of money after what I have seen this year. So i Would keep Hogdon Pitts and Wand. Lose McKinney Wiegart and Wade. Riley can play RT for less money.

RB DD is awesome Morency looks like a versatile backup.

But on any other team only carr AJ and Pitts would start offensively.

Defensively, Robaire, D Rob, greenwood (maybe) and a healthy Wong would start.

Its not coaching its the aging vets on the team just here collecting a check with no young talent behind them to make them work to keep their job. Witha lineman intensive draft this year, We will improve dramatically. its amazing how good our line will block when our lineman are afraid they will get cut.
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Old 10-19-2005   #28
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San Diego replaced their ENTIRE OL last year, and had a great year. Why should it take multiple years to solve the problem? Why can't these coaches get better results out of the guys they have. Last two years the line was doing better, why is it now worse? Could it be the other teams have figured out what Capers is doing, and Capers hasn't adjusted? He's never been particularly good at making half-time adjustments.

I remember seeing an interview with Parcells a few years ago. He said he had to make major changes to his offense and defense schemes at least three times a year to stay ahead of the opposing coaches. Maybe Capers needs to put in a bit more work.
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Old 10-19-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02
I insist that we have talented players. Heck, we have some talented OL players, too. McKinney is a good LG, Pitts is a good LG, and could be an LT. Wade is a good run blocking RT, and Wiegert is a good RG. Unfortunately, Hogdon is too small to play center, and way too inexperienced. So what am I saying all of this for? With a take no crap from no one type motivational coach, we could have a good team!

I don't want to go so far as to say that we have great raw talent on this team, but I have felt for a while that Pendry is more of a problem because this guy was the O-line coach. We raised the level of responsibility for a coach who was destroying one of the most lackluster lines in the NFL. Why Wand was removed, I still don't get, but I think that the Coach proved himself incompetent earlier, and now he's proving his promotion was another inept move.
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Old 10-19-2005   #30
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The Texans have much more talent than performance indicates. We aren't going to see improvement until the coaching changes or they change coaches.
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Old 10-19-2005   #31
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Default Not to play devil's contrarian but

Quote:
Originally Posted by billtxus
San Diego replaced their ENTIRE OL last year, and had a great year. Why should it take multiple years to solve the problem? Why can't these coaches get better results out of the guys they have. Last two years the line was doing better, why is it now worse? Could it be the other teams have figured out what Capers is doing, and Capers hasn't adjusted? He's never been particularly good at making half-time adjustments.

I remember seeing an interview with Parcells a few years ago. He said he had to make major changes to his offense and defense schemes at least three times a year to stay ahead of the opposing coaches. Maybe Capers needs to put in a bit more work.
A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.

2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.

3. The SD Oline escaped the 2004 season without any significant injuries. Makes a big difference. You make your own luck to some degree and then you just need some.

Maybe different coaching would lead to better results. Certainly continuity on the line helps, but it is hard to grow that when maybe you don't have the best pieces and parts to do that. And when one of your best lineman keeps getting hurt.

Ideally, you wouldn't have wanted to do the massive Oline shakeup that we did prior to the Seahawks game. Making such a huge change in a noisy environment seems like a recipe for failure. But I guess they felt that desperate times called for desperate measures. From the previous games, it didn't look like there was much good stuff to build on.

And then Weigert gets hurt. Everytime I look at Capers after yet another bad thing happens, I have this running song going through my head.....


Gloom, despair, agony on me, Woe!
Deep dark depression excessive misery, Woe!
If it weren’t for bad luck I’d have no luck at all, Woe!
Gloom, despair, agony on me!
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Old 10-19-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.

2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.

3. The SD Oline escaped the 2004 season without any significant injuries. Makes a big difference. You make your own luck to some degree and then you just need some.

Maybe different coaching would lead to better results. Certainly continuity on the line helps, but it is hard to grow that when maybe you don't have the best pieces and parts to do that. And when one of your best lineman keeps getting hurt.

Ideally, you wouldn't have wanted to do the massive Oline shakeup that we did prior to the Seahawks game. Making such a huge change in a noisy environment seems like a recipe for failure. But I guess they felt that desperate times called for desperate measures. From the previous games, it didn't look like there was much good stuff to build on.

And then Weigert gets hurt. Everytime I look at Capers after yet another bad thing happens, I have this running song going through my head.....


Gloom, despair, agony on me, Woe!
Deep dark depression excessive misery, Woe!
If it weren’t for bad luck I’d have no luck at all, Woe!
Gloom, despair, agony on me!
I think the O-line coach might have something to do with it.
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Old 10-19-2005   #33
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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry
I think the O-line coach might have something to do with it.
The O-line coach? Or the offensive coordinator?

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Old 10-19-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
2. Any line would look pretty good with LT running behind it. No disrespect to DD, but LT is a beast. I think his time with SD has proven that he is the sort of difference making player that would probably have succeeded no matter where he went. Barring reoccuring injuries, he is likely to continue making that line look good because he has such a quick burst.
Actually last year proved LT does need an OL. Even though his team had a more than legitimate passing game for the 1st time in his career (which should have made his rushing easier) his rushing average went dramatically down--5.3 yds to 3.9 yds (the same thing DD averaged last year coincidentally--which in no way means DD is just as good as LT). This year the running game is coming back together (4.9 ypc), but that gelling thing does count and every RB needs a decent OL. And for the record, LT is IMO the best RB in the league.
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Old 10-19-2005   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
A couple of observations:

1. Please note that the San Diego line you are talking about, IIRC, had no first round Oline studs on it. Which goes against the idea that some float on the message board that we have to use our first round pick on an Olinemen instead of a skill position where you are more likely to get an immediate playmaker.
They have a decent LT in Roman Oben who has 128 career starts. We need a LT and we need to draft one early unless you want another Wand-like project who will take 3 years to pan out...if he pans out.
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Old 10-19-2005   #36
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Default I know we need Olinemen but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
They have a decent LT in Roman Oben who has 128 career starts. We need a LT and we need to draft one early unless you want another Wand-like project who will take 3 years to pan out...if he pans out.
An experienced guy acquired by trade. 3rd round pick.

We tried to get some experienced Oline guys by trading for them and so far it is looking non-good for the good guys.

I am torn on this subject. On one hand, if there is a can't miss Oline guy that we need to get early in the draft to get, I would like to get him. But if there is a better quality guy that still fills one of our numerous needs on other parts of the team, I'd find it hard to pass that up. It is funny how some of the recent top quality projected LT from the draft aren't even playing that position in the NFL yet.

Once it gets closer to draft time, I will really pay attention to that, but I would hate to draft for need to get an Oline guy that may or may not pan out, then miss one of those can't miss miracle players that might be available to us.

Lots of ways to build an offensive line--we just haven't yet.
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Old 10-19-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keldar
See.....I just don't think our talent is that good after all. This year has really opened my eyes to some stinky players. I'm gonna put my opinion out on a limb, and list all Texans players that I feel would start for a majority of other teams.

Chris Brown
Chad Stanley
David Carr
Domanick Davis
Andre Johnson
Dunta Robinson

(crickets)

(crickets)

See what I mean. The entire rest of our team amount to no more than back-ups on most other teams.
Mathis would get a shot as a KR
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Old 10-19-2005   #38
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Actually last year proved LT does need an OL. Even though his team had a more than legitimate passing game for the 1st time in his career (which should have made his rushing easier) his rushing average went dramatically down--5.3 yds to 3.9 yds (the same thing DD averaged last year coincidentally--which in no way means DD is just as good as LT). This year the running game is coming back together (4.9 ypc), but that gelling thing does count and every RB needs a decent OL. And for the record, LT is IMO the best RB in the league.
Actually, LT played with a groin injury all season long, which hampered his production slightly, as well as gave Chatman some playtime as a backup. The SD line is a group of relatively unknowns (Oben notwithstanding) that work well together as a team. Soon, they may be known as a stud OL, so the question always comes up - chicken or egg?

Regardless, building a team from the outside in is a bad idea.
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Old 10-19-2005   #39
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The O-line coach? Or the offensive coordinator?

I believe the O-line coach is considered one of the best in the business. He's also paid well.
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Old 10-19-2005   #40
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According to FOXSports, we have the most highly overpaid OL in the game. Our payroll is also the 3rd highest in the league. Mr. McNair is not getting what he's paying for. How easy should a GM's job be if his owner is willing to have the 3rd highest payroll in the league? Yet our coaches and GM put out the product we see.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5002168
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