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Old 10-17-2005   #1
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Default Move to 4 - 3?

When a new HC comes in what are the chances he'll move to a 4 -3 Defence?

And if that is going to happen could we do it now?

If all were fit I'd move Smith inside to DT as he played there with the Titans, alongside Payne, Johnson and Walker at DE, move Greenwood back outside. Now that Wong has gone for the year put Polk in the middle. The rest up for grabs.

With Smith and Payne inside it might stop debacles like last night.
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Old 10-17-2005   #2
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I agree the 4-3 would be alot smarter but not until the end of the season and not until we go ahead and make the player changes that are coming. Basically we've been working on the 3-4 and trying to get it down so switching in the midst off a season wouldnt do any good now. However next season when we make our player transitions, i think would be a good idea.
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Old 10-17-2005   #3
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in the draft do you go for OLine or DLine.....I'd go OLine ...we done nothing for 4 years on that
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Old 10-17-2005   #4
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Old 10-17-2005   #5
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the chances of the new HC going to the 4-3 or a version of it is probably very good...we have the DT's for it...smith and johnson are both classic DT's for that system...i see walker being released after this season and payne being put in a rotational role with johnson...peek and babin will have to move back to DE's...the only problem is they are both way undersized for DE's in that scheme...both will have to either add weigth to be DE's or lose weight to be LB's...the problems we'll face in switching to a 4-3 is we don't have an every down DE and we don't have a classic MLB...we'll have to draft both or look to FA for one...this draft is filled with a bunch of DE's...Penn state's hali is very underrated...but either way we'll be hurting for awhile on defense...time to bring in an offensive minded head coach to help restructure this offense and progress carr
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Old 10-17-2005   #6
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We were starting to get our groove at the tail end of the season last year and but then we get that yanked out from under us in the off season when we let go of Sharper, Glenn, McCree, Wright etc... We lack continuity in this system as we have not had a group of guys playing together hardly at all, each year its been at least 6 position changes from the year before. That's not good no matter how you look at it.

Imagine if our coaches, scouts, and front office had done a better job in the offseason:

Walker Payne R. Smith (Castillo to groom)

Babin Sharper Bell Wong

Glenn D. Robinson (Wright as nickel)

K. Kennedy M. Coleman

With our 2nd pick imagine having K. Barnes (OT) or O. Thruman (ILB)? Our defense was a couple of players away from being a solid unit. That collapsed in the offseason with so many changes to our defense. We could have added a LT in the 2nd round and at least have a decent season for a change with the 3-4. Now it's in shambles.

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Old 10-17-2005   #7
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This year still has alot of games left.

We cannot give up, I will wont give up until 16 games have been completed, then i'll stay positive about the next year, but not until this one is finished.

I truly belive we have some postivies attached to our team, and we can turn this tide, and finish strong.

Im always going to stick with this team, through the downs and ups. Unlike some people on these boards

Go Texans
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Old 10-17-2005   #8
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I really haven't seen a good argument to move to a 4-3 defense from anyone yet. People keep pointing out how this defense is not doing the things it's touted to do, but that's not the 3-4 defense - that is OUR screwed up version of the 3-4 defense. The 3-4 works as well as the 4-3, if we play it properly.

That said, I don't really care if we switch to 4-3 because, as I said, each works as well as the other. The coaching staff we have in place would get no more production from a 4-3 than they get from the 3-4. Oh, by the way ....... this team plays 4-man fronts, with three linebackers, quite a bit. That would be 4-3.
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Old 10-17-2005   #9
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If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.

Now the problem, we dont have any pass rushers to play outside linebacker(whats the diff?) so now we trade our whole draft to the tittans to move up two spots to get the best backup linebacker, ever.
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Old 10-17-2005   #10
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Originally Posted by TEXANRED
If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.
I keep seeing people that want to bench Payne--all I can say is huh? Payne is the best DLmen we have going right now.
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Old 10-17-2005   #11
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Schemes are overrated -- players are underrated. The Texans simply don't have the players to put a good defense together. I'm not against a 4-3 per se (there's no way they could be worse), but they'd have to spend a lot of draft picks on it.

Maybe Peek or Babin could be a quality 4-3 DE starter, but you would need to get a big body to play the other side or you'd pay for it against the run. The MLB and SLB positions could probably be filled with players on the team, but there's no one on the team who could be more than a mediorce WLB. To me, WLB and DE are the key positions to running a good 4-3 and that's where the questions would be.

The reason I would be against the move next year is because of the offense. The Texans have drafted only 1 quality starter in 4 years for the O-Line and the whole team has paid the price. Since this is supposedly the richest group of tackles in many years and though it may not be sexy, I would spend at least 2 first day picks on O-Line.
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Old 10-17-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEXANRED
If we move to the three four it should be smith and walker as your tackles with babin and peek as your ends. T.J. and payne are your backup. polk, anderson, wong are your linebackers.

Now the problem, we dont have any pass rushers to play outside linebacker(whats the diff?) so now we trade our whole draft to the tittans to move up two spots to get the best backup linebacker, ever.
Peek and Babin are way too small to play LDE and might be too small to play RDE too. They could definitely come in on passing downs though.
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Old 10-17-2005   #13
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The 3-4 isn't the problem...it works for plenty of teams. This same garbage defense isn't going to suddenly start working better just because the scheme is changed.
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Old 10-17-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledzeppelin269
The 3-4 isn't the problem...it works for plenty of teams. This same garbage defense isn't going to suddenly start working better just because the scheme is changed.
See that is where I disagree. It won't suddenly improve from a radical change to a system requiring different personnel like a 4-3, but it could improve greatly by going to a Phillips style aggressive 3-4. These players have nowhere to go but up from where they are now. Save their spirit for next year by letting them play an aggressive system rather than this read and react cover 2 zone barely ever blitz BS.
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Old 10-17-2005   #15
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I agree completely a smaller scheme change could improve things. What we've doing now is clearly not working. My point was that changing to a 4-3 isn't going to be our savior unless we get new coaches, new players, all kind of new stuff.
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Old 10-17-2005   #16
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IMO the reason we should switch to a 4-3 is we have four good defensive lineman. G Walker, S Payne, R Smith, TJ.

We only have three servicable linebackers. Greenwood, Peek, Babin.

I know we dont have the players to fit a 4-3 but we need to change somthing.
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Old 10-17-2005   #17
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Originally Posted by ledzeppelin269
My point was that changing to a 4-3 isn't going to be our savior unless we get new coaches, new players, all kind of new stuff.
Then we are in absolute agreement. Either system works very well with proper player selection, effective coaching, and proper execution--either fails without. JMO but this is McNair's toughest decision--is the personnel that wrong for a 3-4? If so, go ahead and burn the whole thing down and get whatever HC you want and start from ground up. If the personnel really isn't that wrong and the screwed up, overly passive Fangio schemes are largely to blame, then burn Fangio and Co. out and bring in a 3-4 guy with some fire.

Now total aside here but an observation. Many people are enamoured of Jimmy Johnson. He ran a real smart, efficient O headed by Aikman with a pro-bowl line--built because he wanted it that way. He ran a fiery, attacking, turnover causing, fast D, because he wanted it that way. Wonderlic scores consistantly have the smarter scores on O and not so much on D. So why are we trying to run such a complex D and a simple O? Time to pin the ears back on D and on O try reacting to the D. When Sharper gives you the gift of their game plan--put 8 or 9 in to stop DD--then stick 4 or oh my god even 5 WR's in to get them out of their game plan.
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Old 10-17-2005   #18
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Vinny will argue that the coachin staff is dumbing down the system because Carr can't handle it. I'm perplexed as to why we didn't use 4 or 5 wr sets. On long plays we used 3 wr sets and even when we were down by 20 we were using 2 wr sets. That's just crazy.

I say spread it out and start demading guys to know the playbook, know their checkoffs and know their adjustments. Hold the players accountable and do as Parcells does and call them out, they are men, they can take it.
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Old 10-17-2005   #19
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I think we give a new coach a shot before we tear down any semblance of a foundation. Let the new staff decide who is worth keeping and who needs to be shown the door. This staff has had plenty of time to get guys they think will be effective in their system, and the track record isn't pretty.
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Old 10-17-2005   #20
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Originally Posted by ledzeppelin269
I think we give a new coach a shot before we tear down any semblance of a foundation. Let the new staff decide who is worth keeping and who needs to be shown the door. This staff has had plenty of time to get guys they think will be effective in their system, and the track record isn't pretty.
This is going to be a HUGE decision for McNair. I may start a new thread about it later this evening. McNair is going to have to make a fundamental choice. Do I like a potential coach more than I like my current personnel? In other words, do I look for any new HC or only one who will play a 3-4 because I have underutilized talent suited for a 3-4?
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