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Old 10-14-2005   #1
TheOgre
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Default Casserly's Future

It seems like many of us think that this is Capers last dance. He would have to win about 2/3's of his remaining games (7-8 wins) to keep his job IMO. That seems extremely unlikely.

So my attention shift to Casserly. It is hard to know how many of the moves and decisions have been pushed by Capers and his staff, and how many are purely Casserly moves.

There are tons of other moves that he has made that are both great and horrible. How many of those decisions have been influenced by Capers and his staff? Has he struggled to find guys that fit Caper's system since he was relatively new to the 3-4 defense? The big question is, will he be around next year or is he part of the problem? Give me your take on his future.
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Old 10-14-2005   #2
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select... Reggie Bush
One of the two has to go. We either gat a GM whose philosophy is on the same page as Doms, or get a Coach who's philosophy on the same page as Cass, or, a new coach who's also the GM (I don't know how many of you feel about that), or get both who can work together and be on the same page.
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Old 10-14-2005   #3
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This is a good question, TheOgre. And it is one that is tough to find honest answers to, as well.

When selecting players, how much of the decision is Casserly's? And how much of it is from Coach Capers and staff?

Is it a 50/50 proposition? Does the coaches say we want player A, then the GM goes out and makes a deal?

Anyone have any "insider" information about the process?
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Old 10-14-2005   #4
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How often does both the HC and GM get fired at the same time?
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Old 10-14-2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel
This is a good question, TheOgre. And it is one that is tough to find honest answers to, as well.

When selecting players, how much of the decision is Casserly's? And how much of it is from Coach Capers and staff?

Is it a 50/50 proposition? Does the coaches say we want player A, then the GM goes out and makes a deal?

Anyone have any "insider" information about the process?
In this case I think Casserly is as big a victum of Capers and his coaching staff as everyone else is. They tell him who they want and he goes and gets them and signs them. Remember, we have been one of the best at getting our rookies and free agents signed. I believe the way this organization is set up that is Cass's primary responsibility. He has some input, but I believe he's trusted Capers too much and if the player doesn't fit Capers mold its a big loss anyway. Get rid of Capers and his staff and probably 90% of the problems on this ball club will go away if a competent head coach is hired....
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Old 10-14-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
It seems like many of us think that this is Capers last dance. He would have to win about 2/3's of his remaining games (7-8 wins) to keep his job IMO. That seems extremely unlikely.

So my attention shift to Casserly. It is hard to know how many of the moves and decisions have been pushed by Capers and his staff, and how many are purely Casserly moves.

There are tons of other moves that he has made that are both great and horrible. How many of those decisions have been influenced by Capers and his staff? Has he struggled to find guys that fit Caper's system since he was relatively new to the 3-4 defense? The big question is, will he be around next year or is he part of the problem? Give me your take on his future.

Here is what I think.

Next season we bring in a new coaching staff and those coaches will get to work with our existing players in mini camps, training camp, and practices through the 2006 season. What a different coaching staff can accomplish with the talent we already have on hand will tell you a lot about whether Charlie Casserly still needs to be our GM. How do the guys we have play for these new coaches? Are they able to stop all the mental errors and stupid mistakes? Do guys who came here as free agents start playing like they maybe deserved those contracts? If that happens then it was our coaching staff and Casserly stays. If they can't get anymore out of these guys than Capers did then clearly we have a problem identifying talent.

You know where that leads. "The first rule of Fire Casserly Club is that there is no Fire Casserly Club"
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Old 10-14-2005   #7
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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry
In this case I think Casserly is as big a victum of Capers and his coaching staff as everyone else is. They tell him who they want and he goes and gets them and signs them.
My daughter, like many, has asked for a horse, a VW bug and many other things. As a responsible parentt it is my job to say no it isn't appropriate or the cost is too high. Casserly has failed in that job. Anybody care to really dispute that?
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Old 10-14-2005   #8
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
My daughter, like many, has asked for a horse, a VW bug and many other things. As a responsible parent it is my job to say no it isn't appropriate or the cost is too high. Casserly has failed in that job. Anybody care to really dispute that?

Nope. I would say you hit the nail on the head.
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Old 10-14-2005   #9
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That's the 20,000 question. Who should be accountable . . Casserly or Capers?

There are two schools of thought on this MB. Either this team has talented players, but have "no heart or fire" (DB ). Or the team simply doesn't have the talent to compete, particularly up front on both sides of the ball.

Jason Babin . . . Capers or Casserly?
Buchanon . . . Capers or Casserly
Tony Hollings. . . Capers or Casserly
Todd Wade . . . Capers or Casserly?
Charlie Clemons . . . Capers or Casserly?
Bennie Joppru . . . Capers or Casserly?

The list could go on. But how many draft picks, and how much cap money is tied up on those alone? To me, it looks like a whole slew of bad decisions in evaluating talent. But who do you point the finger at?

Bob McNair maybe?
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Old 10-14-2005   #10
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i'm a fan of casserly ,but being the eternal pessimist that i am, im willing to consider he may get fired. ive seen plenty in here on "capers replacement should be..."

what about next gm candidates? anyone out there noteworthy?
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Old 10-14-2005   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
My daughter, like many, has asked for a horse, a VW bug and many other things. As a responsible parent it is my job to say no it isn't appropriate or the cost is too high. Casserly has failed in that job. Anybody care to really dispute that?
Well, I would think a parent/child relationship, and a manager/employee relationship is kind like apples and oranges, wouldn't you say? I mean, in one case you are the authority, and in the other case, you are delegating that authority.

So Casserly "has failed in that job" in what respect? The 'buck stops here' thing?
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Old 10-14-2005   #12
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I really feel that Casserly will be here next year. I'm not saying that he deserves to return or not. I just think he will be here.
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what about next gm candidates? anyone out there noteworthy?
The only name I've heard that perks my ears up is Jimmy Johnson. He made some great deals in Dallas and seems to have a good eye for talent. I really have no clue otherwise.
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Old 10-14-2005   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Well, I would think a parent/child relationship, and a manager/employee relationship is kind like apples and oranges, wouldn't you say? I mean, in one case you are the authority, and in the other case, you are delegating that authority.

So Casserly "has failed in that job" in what respect? The 'buck stops here' thing?
Well you can think they are different if you like obviously. I do not. IMO Capers' job is (a) to describe to Casserly what he needs/wants, i.e. give him a wish list and (b) to make the best of, i.e. coach up, what he gets. Casserly's job is to
fulfill as much of the wish list as possible within the constrainst of the system (daddy, equals money, wisdom and practicality--gm equals availability and cap space) Seems similar to me. Capers may want the pro-bowl team for the AFC last year, what coach wouldn't, but the GM can't make it happen. He has to turn to Capers and say as much as you are pup-tenting for Babin, the price is too much, otherwise he is not fulfilling his job.
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Old 10-14-2005   #14
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It's all about the hierachy. The head coach is the field general, the GM is the pentagon General. McNair is the President. No where does the buck stop? McNair. It's a chain of command. If I am the President how do I fix things? Who should take responsibility? If Casserly is just an order taker then he needs to be fired, Capers could do his job, no need for that position to exist if all he does is what Capers tells him. There are financial people in this organization that do very well with cap numbers, Casserly is just their director. If Casserly is making the personnel decisions then he needs to be fired. We've had very poor drafting and Free Agent acquisitions.
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Old 10-14-2005   #15
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The problem here is that you get into a Chicken vs. Egg dispute.

If Casserly drafts players that are ill-suited to Capers Offensive / Defensive schemes, then whose fault is it then?

If Casserly only drafts players that Capers asks for, then what's the point of having a GM?

How about the Sharper / Glenn issue; was it driven by Casserly or Capers? Did Casserly sell Dom on the talent of P-Buc and the potential of Peek/Babin/Wong/Orr, etc., or did Dom say "Let 'em go, we'll be better off?"

I'll stick with the coaching issue. Even I we have sub-standard talent, the team shouldn't be THIS bad in year 4. Despite claims to the contrary, it doesn't take a decade to build a decent O-Line. Even if 1/3 of the sacks are Carr's fault (that's about my estimate), the O-Line would still be in the running for the worst of ALL TIME again!

Paul (Bear) Bryant said a good coach can beat you with his team, but a great coach can beat you with YOUR team.

Dom Capers has one winning season as a Pro coach...you connect the dots.
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Old 10-14-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
How about the Sharper / Glenn issue; was it driven by Casserly or Capers? Did Casserly sell Dom on the talent of P-Buc and the potential of Peek/Babin/Wong/Orr, etc., or did Dom say "Let 'em go, we'll be better off?"
Here is where I think it is on both. I assume, maybe wrong but there it is, that Capers/Fangio/Hoke were positive on the Buchanon trade. If not, Casserly truly needs to be shown the door. Fine, the coaches thought they could redeem Buchanon. They didn't need to let Glenn go and Casserly as the personnel guy should have said no, not until Buchanon proves himself. At this point, I chalk Buchanon up as a failure for--Casserly (too much paid), Capers/Fangio/Hoke (mis-evaluating talent or misusing talent) and Casserly (letting Glenn go before Buchanon was proven). Like so many things with this team--plenty of blame to go around.
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Old 10-14-2005   #17
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My daughter, like many, has asked for a horse, a VW bug and many other things. As a responsible parentt it is my job to say no it isn't appropriate or the cost is too high. Casserly has failed in that job. Anybody care to really dispute that?
I'll dispute it, to a degree. Casserly's job is not to decide who is going to be a bust or not. His job is to centrally manage all the input he's receiving from scouts and coaches and then take the best course of action within budget constraints and team direction. So, to use your example, if your daughter were a world class horse evaluator and told you that Mr. Ed was going to win the Kentucky Derby and you should buy him before that happens, you just have to confer with other horse evaluators and if a majority of them say the same thing - check your budget and pull out your pocketbook. Then, if you hire a trainer for Mr. Ed who consistently puts lead horseshoes on the beast, and most other trainers and scouts on the horse circuit whisper about how crappy your horseshoes are, then you have another decision to make.

Casserly is not a talent evaluator. That is what we have scouts for. As for the argument of whether he's spent too much money on the commodities we've obtained, I think he has overpaid for two items --

1.) Carr. If you weren't going to protect him, you shouldn't have spent the money. Even here, it can be argued that he thought he was going to protect him with Boselli and Ryan Young as anchors. He's had three years since to right the ship and has not, so I say he has effectively overpaid for Carr.

2.) Capers. Whatever we're paying him, he has not made lemonade from lemons. That was his job and he knew it coming in. Expansion teams get lemons for players. He had the players for a while - pulling out a victory over the Steelers, Panthers, Cowboys, and a near-win vs. the Pats shows what heart the team had - but it's gone now. We have better talent now as well, and they're playing worse.

Quote:
He has to turn to Capers and say as much as you are pup-tenting for Babin, the price is too much, otherwise he is not fulfilling his job.
The problem with laying this on Casserly is ... where do you draw the line on what is appropriate to spend and what isn't? Would you spend a 2nd and 3rd round pick on a Kevin Greene-type linebacker? I think that's appropriate. Would you spend it on what Babin's been to this point? Obviously not. Can he predict the future? Probably not. If he has multiple people telling him the same thing, he has to listen to that. If Capers is the only one telling him that, then he's irresponsible to listen to it.

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Old 10-14-2005   #18
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Since the thread is Casserly's future I see Capers and staff moving on after the year as the sacrificial lambs and Cass staying the course. Whether we like it or not the team still has shown improvement in the win column year over year with year four only a quarter of the way thorugh.

Before we start beating on McNair's door to fire everyone, we have to think like a Chief Executive and speak their language. From his point of view sales are strong and the product is growing from a win stand point. We may need an organizational change, but I do not see Cass (as much as I think it needs to be looked at) getting the axe.
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Old 10-14-2005   #19
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Originally Posted by powda
i'm a fan of casserly ,but being the eternal pessimist that i am, im willing to consider he may get fired. ive seen plenty in here on "capers replacement should be..."

what about next gm candidates? anyone out there noteworthy?
I heard Ladd Herzeg is available. He just appeared in the Musical Moon River, but will catch a flight from Buffalo whenever Mcnair calls. His only request is to make sure he gets those little umbrellas in his drinks. He hates it when he doesn't get the umbrella. :brickwall
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Old 10-14-2005   #20
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I think Casserly stays as well. I think he is probably mainly to blame for choices like Boselli and Hollings. Capers is probably more to blame for Babin, Buchanon, and Greenwood. I would bet that Capers had the most influence on front seven picks, acquisitions, and moves as well as that played in the Senior Bowl with him a few years ago.
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