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Old 10-05-2005   #1
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Default Time to switch to the 4-3?

After this season, when we hopefully change some key coaching positions, perhaps we should consider changing to a 4-3.

ALot of people have been hollering for a 4-3 on this board for a long time, and ive always opposed that.. but now that our defense has started yet another season looking flat and ineffective.. and coaching changes seem to be just over the horizon.. perhaps it is time to seriously consider it.

Some people claim the 3-4 is better because 3-4 defenses have statistically been at the head of the pack every season. But statistics arent everything, and you cant deny that there have been some very effective and FAST 4-3 defenses over the past few years.

If you actually look at superbowls from the last 5 years.. you will see that there have been five 3-4 teams, and five 4-3 teams in the superbowl. If you remove the Patriots (who are a special case) then its five 4-3s and only two 3-4s.

Anyway.. the biggest reason that I think we should consider it, is because we are really lacking at linebacker.

It seems to me that it would be so much easier if we lined up Peek and Babin at DE, and Payne/Johnson and Smith at DT. Then put Wong, Greenwood, and someone else (Anderson?) at the LB spots. Lets face it... Walker is getting TOO old..really fast. And our LBs are NOT providing a pass rush.. so maybe we should throw Peek and Babin back on the L.O.S. where they played in College and see if that helps them.


Obviously any major change like this would have to come after the season is over.. and after the inclusion of a new defensive coordinator and possibly(probably) head coach (cccmmoonnn Monte Kiffen!!!)


What is your opinion? Should we switch to a 4-3? When we decided to play the 3-4.. one of the benefits was that so few teams used it thatit gave us that benefit of running an alien defense. That is no longer the case.
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Old 10-05-2005   #2
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No. For one we don't have the personnel. Second, we have enough problems going on now without having to rebuild a defense. Third, we have some of our defensive players tied up in longer higher paying contracts. TJ, Wong, Greenwood, Payne, Walker, and Smith to name a few. Switching to a 4-3 would mean either mean getting rid of some players or having to move them. I don't see us switching to a 4-3.
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Old 10-05-2005   #3
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I think you said it all. Switching to the 4-3 defense does look a lot better than trying year after year on making the 3-4 defense try to workout. I think with the strength and speed that Peek has he could be just as effective as freeny (however you spell it) of the Colts. I think switching to the 4-3 is for the best with the addition of drafting a whole new offensive line and and tight end. Who knows, if the Texans keep on loosing they might be able to pull in a much better selection of O-linemen and a Tightend. I think carr is great but its just to bad he doesn't have a line to prtect him and more threats in the passing game. And with the addition of the 4-3 we might have a chance to at least win some games. On another note, the defensive play caling has been just as horrible. I mean Capers is suppose to be a defensive genius so how come I hardly ever see any kind of defensive stunts. And is it just me or does anyone else agree that whenever the linebackers blitz you can see it a mile away. They don't disquise the blitz very well. Sorry for getting a little off subject.
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Old 10-05-2005   #4
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The 3-4 isn't the problem. Its worked for Baltimore, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego. The problem is Fangio right now. There's a clear issue with the DC when Steve Foley can do very little in our defense and then go record more sacks than any Texan has ever had as soon as he gets to the Chargers. An aggressive defense isn't supposed to constantly drop its LBers back into coverage, it's supposed to gamble and actually scare other teams a little. And it isn't supposed to take 3 games for a turnover.
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Old 10-05-2005   #5
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Well with a new coach comes a new system so im possitive we will change unless our coach is Charlie Weis
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Old 10-06-2005   #6
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Changing to a 4-3 is dumb. Changing to a 3-4 is dumb. Changing is dumb. We don't have all the right players (or coaches) to run the 3-4 right, but we're a lot closer to it than we are to running a good 4-3, just like the fact that our offense isn't working, but that doesn't mean we should just switch to the run-n-shoot.

We need to replace the parts that aren't working. It's a new car and it's a real waist to just send it to the junkyard.
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Old 10-06-2005   #7
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We will adress that when we decide where we are going coach-wise at the end of the season.

The biggest issue is the O-line flux. If you ask any coach (or most fans NOT associated with the Texans) what the first thing he would do with the Texans via free agency or the draft, thier answer would be O-line.

We can't be dicussing moving Pitts here or trying Riley there DURING the season.
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Old 10-06-2005   #8
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Originally Posted by Tedc
We can't be dicussing moving Pitts here or trying Riley there DURING the season.
Why can't we be discussing it when the Texans were playing musical chairs themselves in practice all day yesterday? They had Pitts at LT, McKinney at Guard, Hodgdon at Center, etc., etc...

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Originally Posted by ledzeppelin269
There's a clear issue with the DC when Steve Foley can do very little in our defense and then go record more sacks than any Texan has ever had as soon as he gets to the Chargers. An aggressive defense isn't supposed to constantly drop its LBers back into coverage, it's supposed to gamble and actually scare other teams a little. And it isn't supposed to take 3 games for a turnover.
Not to mention in this 3-4 the assignments are a bit different for the DLs as compared to say Pittsburgh and San Diego. There's been more than one case all the way back to Indy, where new guys and younger guys like Travis Johnson have had a tough time in this system. Guys like that get frustrated first, then either resign to the system -- or complain about it and get released.

Last edited by aj.; 10-06-2005 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 10-06-2005   #9
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I think that will be a decision for our new head coach.
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Old 10-06-2005   #10
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Lincoln's address: Word of caution on the 3-4


By Lincoln Kennedy
Special to NFL.com

But there's a catch: When using the 3-4 defense, your linebackers have to be your best athletes. And you also better have some pretty strong, but very unselfish, defensive linemen up front.

I think any coach that tries to use the 3-4 defense has to be patient. Don't rush to install it before you have the personnel to play it.
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/8792811


I posted this in an earlier post. Interesting that Lincoln stated" Don't rush to install it before you have the personnel to play it"!


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Old 10-06-2005   #11
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The problem isnt the scheme, the problem is the players. Which have do not have for a 3-4. As I said in another post about switching to the 4-3, we have the line for it. Smith had his break out year w/TEN as a DT, putting Babin/Peek at DE would allow them to not worry about dropping into coverage.

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Old 10-06-2005   #12
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I think the biggest problem is our use of the scheme. The 3-4 by nature is an aggressive style of defense. We are playing with a read-and-react approach. We added a speed to our front seven this past offseason. Why not utilize that speed to disrupt their plays instead of waiting for the plays to develop?
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Old 10-06-2005   #13
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The new head coach of the 2006 Texans will make this decision ...
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Old 10-06-2005   #14
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The problem isnt the scheme, the problem is the players. Which have do not have for a 3-4.
Funny, Foley didn't have enough talent compared to our players so we cut him and he went to a different scheme 3-4--somehow along I-10 west he found a whole truckload of talent. The difference really is stark. Last year Foley had just .5 sacks less than Wong/Babin/Peek combined. He tacked on 5 FF and 2 INT's. This from a guy who couldn't beat out Charlie Anderson to back up Peek to back up Wong here.

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As I said in another post about switching to the 4-3, we have the line for it. Smith had his break out year w/TEN as a DT, putting Babin/Peek at DE would allow them to not worry about dropping into coverage.[/url]
We have a good portion of the DL but we are missing a serious pass rushing DE. If need be we could field Payne and Smith at DT and Walker and TJ at DE. Neither Walker nor TJ is the ideal guy you want at RDE though and neither Babin nor Peek have anything near the weight/strength/speed to be every down RDE's.

The much simpler solution to not worrying about the OLB's dropping into coverage is don't have them drop into coverage so much. It isn't the only way to play the 3-4. Call upon the secondary for more coverage and have the OLB's pass rushing the vast majority of downs.
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Old 10-06-2005   #15
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I'm talking about players we have on the roster now and more then likely next year. Yeah we missed on players that have been on our roster, to bad. Obviously our version of the 3-4 is doing the opposite of its intended purpose, bring the heat. Our run D has been okay at best from time to time. You could put any of our current D-line in 3 of the 4 d-line spots and rotate Peek, Babin, and anyone else in on the other DE spot. We get a player like Smith, that had a monster year in 4-3 and what do we do? Move him to a DE in a 3-4.
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Old 10-06-2005   #16
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The point of Foley is not so much that we missed on his talent--it is that our system didn't show that he had any talent. The difference is the scheme he plays in and what he is allowed/called upon to do. The Chargers run a much less see and react scheme for the 3-4 and Foley is allowed to have as primary focus pass rushing, edge containment and creating disruption in the backfield. He doesn't spend near as much time dropping 3-6 yds off the line of scrimmage and passively waiting to see what happens like Peek is being told to do.

As for Smith playing DE, it is common in most 3-4's to have all 3 DL positions filled by guys who would be DT's in 4-3's. That isn't misusing him at all.
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Old 10-06-2005   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCROD
The problem isnt the scheme, the problem is the players. Which have do not have for a 3-4. As I said in another post about switching to the 4-3, we have the line for it. Smith had his break out year w/TEN as a DT, putting Babin/Peek at DE would allow them to not worry about dropping into coverage.

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We don't have 4-3 ends. We just have "tweeners" who are not really a DE or pure linebackers. RoSmith is being used as a tackle...since all the linemen in a 3-4 are tackles. imo RoSmith is overrated as well. I agree with the above sentiment that our version of the 3-4 is the problem...not the 3-4 itself.
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Old 10-06-2005   #18
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My whole point about Smith is he played well when we had guys next to him taking up space/blockers and was going up against a guard straight up. I remember watching him in TEN his last year and thinking this guy is going to be outstanding. It seems like he has little to nil effect now.
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Old 10-06-2005   #19
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He has his shots to play the 3 (over the guard) when we go to 4 man fronts in passing situations here...I see no pass rushing skills from him at all. Personally, I think he is a one-dimensional 2-down run player.
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Old 10-06-2005   #20
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Thats another thing, how often are we really going to a 4 man front? I know you review each game in depth Vinny. The one formation that comes to mind is the 2 dline, 1 LB, and whole bunch of DBs. We pay our Dline tons of money, but dont put them in situations to use their talent. Seems like we are more interested in having big guys to take up space instead of big guys to make plays.
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