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Old 10-06-2005   #21
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Leave Carr in there the whole year. We need to see what his value looks like to us and to other teams before we make a decision to pick up the option or have hime renegotiate. Our #1 off season player personell decison this year is what to do we do with David?
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Old 10-06-2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Carr has flaws...he's had them for a while. They didn't just start this year...it's just that most of you guys blame his problems on others all the time.

Carr has been sack 160 times since his 1st snap, but I'm sure that is mostly on him. Lucky for Carr he has his legs. How many sacks would we be speaking of if he ran like Troy Aikman?

160 sacks in a little over 3 years and climbing fast. Yea, I say put Ragone in before Carr has no trade value at all...
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Old 10-06-2005   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
Great post, we do need to see where all the problems lie in the O line, but we need to start with banks then ragone, a lot of people say start with ragone, but he has very little to no experience in the NFL, Europe leauge is totally different and he had a line that blocked for him with Berlin Thunder.

Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and psychological trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.
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Old 10-06-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbleone
Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and physcilogical trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.
With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?
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Old 10-06-2005   #25
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?

He was.

We may need to consider going after a new #1 QB and actually build around him. I'm sure the new head coach will agree...
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Old 10-06-2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BREAZE
Carr has been sack 160 times since his 1st snap, but I'm sure that is mostly on him. Lucky for Carr he has his legs. How many sacks would we be speaking of if he ran like Troy Aikman?

160 sacks in a little over 3 years and climbing fast. Yea, I say put Ragone in before Carr has no trade value at all...
Most of the sacks are on the team, the line and the scheme...but Carr is a big part of the problem. Being fast or having running ability has ZERO to do with sacks. Guys like Culpepper and Vick take more sacks than slower QB's all the time. Being good in the pocket isn't about speed.
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Old 10-06-2005   #27
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I have been thinkg about this for days now, and I think the FO at least had the right intentions, by taking Boselli, Payne, and Walker in the expansion draft. IMO you have to start building at the line, that is where the battle starts. Well then Boselli never sees a snap. Then we draft Carr and AJ. But what good is it going to do? We should have started building a line.

Quote:
Guys like Culpepper and Vick take more sacks than slower QB's all the time. Being good in the pocket isn't about speed.
You're eight, Culpepper has been sacked 21 times so far this season...
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Old 10-06-2005   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Being fast or having running ability has ZERO to do with sacks.
huh? It has a lot to do with it when there is zero protection. Unless you like a lot of intentional grounding it means everything...
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Old 10-06-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
With that all being said do you belive DC is worth an 8 million signing bonus at the conclusion of the year?

Good question. I would say "yes" only qualified with the following:

(1) New coaches are on the way (HC, OC, OL the whole nine yards) because Carr with this bunch is a disaster of biblical perportions.

(2) They (the new coaching staff) believe in David and want him as their guy vs. starting over with someone else.

The limitations of Carr that Vinny has observed and commented on for sometime I still believe can be overcome with good coaching.
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Old 10-06-2005   #30
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Hey ya, let's put in Banks to see what he can do, he won't get hurt because he doesn't take off when the pocket is collapsing....oh wait, Banks was knocked out for the year the last time we did that.

So if nothing has really changed in 4 years it must be Carrs fault, except that one little thing where Banks got injured because of pressure from the line. Coincidence?
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Old 10-06-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner
I think Ragone should get some time just to answer the question - Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?

What do we risk if he is given a shot - that we lose a couple of games? That our offense can't move the ball consistently? We already have that.

Low risk, possible good reward - let him play.

Well if ragone played we wouldn't worry about Ragone getting blindsided when the LT lost his guy LOL
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Old 10-06-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbleone
Frankly I have seen enough (over the last 4 years!!!) of where the problems are in the O line. IMO our team does not suffer from a lack of information (as your post would seem to suggest) but from denial, incompetence and lack of leadership from the coaching staff. And, while I am at it, I can think of only one good reason to play either of the other two QB's we have...and that is that you want to save DC from any further physical and psychological trauma until you get your real problem fixed (new coaches and finally a decent OL)

Let me ask you a question if I may...what do you think David Carr's development would look like (pocket awareness, ability to look off a primary, lack of happy feet etc...) if Fisher had been his HC for 4 years? Look how he developed his raw big armed kid from a small school vs. what we have done with David.

If fisher was head coach? well we have the same OL
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Old 10-06-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
Well if ragone played we wouldn't worry about Ragone getting blindsided when the LT lost his guy LOL
I thought this was the straight line in my post:

Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?
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Old 10-06-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner
I thought this was the straight line in my post:

Can he play with and against starting caliber NFL personnel?
Never know unless he gets game day experience.. I guess. Who would have thought Tom Brady would do what he does.. but again that is a coaching staff over there that uses their strengths
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Old 10-06-2005   #35
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The bottom line in the Carr saga, to me, is ..... If he had a good team around him, would he be able to deliver what was expected of him? I think that answer would have been yes, even halfway through last season. People so quickly forget the things that Carr showed last season when the team was playing well. EVERY quarterback in the NFL has weaknesses. It's the coaches' jobs to put their players in a position to succeed. Carr has enough strengths to be a Pro Bowl QB (if he isn't ruined yet) if he is put in a position to succeed. The elite quarterbacks have time to throw, they know what their line will do in any given scenario, they know what their WR will do when they see a blitz formation, etc. Carr has been given no such level of comfort and NO quarterback would have performed any better to this point, on this team. Period. Culpepper had an MVP-caliber season last year and has been developing into the QB that he was last year for a few years now. He has 21 sacks so far this year, and yeah, probably 5-7 of those are on him, SAME AS CARR. Pepper's center went down, they have issues with the run game, other parts of their O-line are questionable, they lost Moss ... and people suddenly think Pepper is a bad QB (they actually do, on the Vikings forums). Unbelievable.

I bring this up because I think there's a lesson to be learned there, and we as fans should realize that we don't know enough to single out Carr as the biggest source of the problem to this point. Personally, I think the O-line has to be targeted as the single biggest issue for this team. Sacks? Whatever. The pressures matter just as much as the sacks. If Carr is taking a sack by running out of bounds behind the line, why did he have to run? Most of the time, he has pressure. Pressures are every bit as devastating as sacks, and I would argue even moreso, since they tend to force turnovers a bit more than just straight sacks. Sure, some of the sacks are on Carr. Sure, Carr can do a few things to cut down on mistakes. The biggest problem is still the O-line. And I really don't think it's a personnel issue. The Colts have two second-year guys on their line (if I read correctly) that are starting and doing well this year. Neither were 1st-round picks, and the Colts haven't had a high draft pick in some time, aside from maybe trades. Yet Manning has been sacked ZERO times this year. And pressured precious little as well.

When we can keep our QB clean - whoever it is - we'll start to see some success at the position. Until then, we could have Joe Montana and still have this discussion.
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Old 10-06-2005   #36
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David said last night on the news they are focused on cutting down on the sacks and if he has to throw the ball to the 3rd row to get rid of it he will.

We'll see what happens Sunday. I know nothing about the pass rush the Titans are capable of.
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Old 10-06-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
You guys make me laugh.

You know David Carr is 32nd in Passing Att.

And you guys expect wonderful stats from this guy?????
You don't have to have great stats to be a great QB. Just ask Tom Brady. As to the reasons his attempts are so low, I think part of it is the overall philosphy of Capers, and part is because Carr has looked so bad, and the protection has broken down enough other times that I am not sure they have enough confidence to allow him to chunk the rock 35 or 40 times a game.
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Old 10-07-2005   #38
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I just read somewhere that JP is getting benched in Buffalo..due to their offensive woes..
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Old 10-07-2005   #39
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Moulds said it's not a knock against Losman.

``I think J.P. knows he's the future here and he knows the situation was the coach's decision,'' he said. ``I talked to him yesterday about it. He's not happy about it, but feels that right now it's the coach's decision and he has to live with it.''

``I don't think it's a slap in the face,'' Evans added. ``For right now, maybe they felt he needed to sit and learn a little more and pick it up when he gets the opportunity.''
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Old 10-07-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
You guys make me laugh.

You know David Carr is 32nd in Passing Att.

And you guys expect wonderful stats from this guy?????
If Carr would make more plays then the offense would be on the field longer. You can't throw the ball if you can't sustain drives.

Looking at his career (47 career games) David Carr has thrown for a minimum watermark of 210 yards and 2 TDs in the same game a grand total of 3 times in his career. All 3 losses. That means in the history of this franchise we have never had Carr throw for over 210 yards and 2 TD's in a win.

The bottom line is this team has 3 300 yard passing games out of over 50 games played and Carr has thrown 3 TD's or more 1 time in his career. This passing game is a much deeper problem than, "just give Carr more protection". With all Culpepper's problems he has still managed to throw for over 1000 yards (1019) so far this year. It's not just the line and it's not just Carr...the bottom line is the whole thing stinks.
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