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Old 09-20-2005   #21
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Too many people are hanging Carr's errors on the o line.

I keep saying it, and I think Vinny is proving it with his analysis.

Carr is doing things to hurt HIMSELF. In the preseason, I saw better and more consistent pass blocking than I have seen in a long time...maybe ever. We all commented on it, saying that it looked like Carr was hurrying throws and not used to the time we was getting in the pocket.

And then, I think because of his errors (making WRs leap for balls, throwing the wrong way, dancing and running from the snap of the ball, etc.) i think a lot of his teammates are not only getting burned by his poor judgment...but i also think they are getting tired of trying to bust their rear for Carr when he is failing to do the most basic QB tasks.

Go to work tomorrow and get blamed for everything in the world that goes wrong. Repeat that every day for about three years. Then, when you pull off what you think is a perfect day--A day when NOBODY can blame you for others' mistakes--you still get blamed. You'd kinda' get tired of working there, wouldn't you? I think that's sort of the way the o line feels right now. And mayeb THAT's why the o line coach was promoted to OC...nobody knows better than the o line coach what needs to be done to help the QB. Hopefully.
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Old 09-20-2005   #22
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Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
Too many people are hanging Carr's errors on the o line.

I keep saying it, and I think Vinny is proving it with his analysis.

Carr is doing things to hurt HIMSELF. In the preseason, I saw better and more consistent pass blocking than I have seen in a long time...maybe ever. We all commented on it, saying that it looked like Carr was hurrying throws and not used to the time we was getting in the pocket.

And then, I think because of his errors (making WRs leap for balls, throwing the wrong way, dancing and running from the snap of the ball, etc.) i think a lot of his teammates are not only getting burned by his poor judgment...but i also think they are getting tired of trying to bust their rear for Carr when he is failing to do the most basic QB tasks.

Go to work tomorrow and get blamed for everything in the world that goes wrong. Repeat that every day for about three years. Then, when you pull off what you think is a perfect day--A day when NOBODY can blame you for others' mistakes--you still get blamed. You'd kinda' get tired of working there, wouldn't you? I think that's sort of the way the o line feels right now. And mayeb THAT's why the o line coach was promoted to OC...nobody knows better than the o line coach what needs to be done to help the QB. Hopefully.
Ive been doing it for three and a half years
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Old 09-20-2005   #23
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carr also got heavy pressure up the middle and then from the right side of the line. as far as im concerned carr might have taken off a half to a full second early......considering the circumstances of the bills game and the early part of the steelers game i cant say i entirely blame him.

what i can blame is a player who stops before the play is over.

i dont care if the play lasted a full minute. you do not stop until the ref blows the whistle.

watch his feet vinny. he stops completly...he didnt even try to maintain contact on a player he should physically own.
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Old 09-20-2005   #24
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Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
Too many people are hanging Carr's errors on the o line.

I keep saying it, and I think Vinny is proving it with his analysis.

vinny didnt tell you what he saw downfield...he didnt tell you if the recievers were covered downfield...he didnt even tell you how many recievers were downfield.

because we dont know unless we get a diffrent view.

we cant evaluate that. what we can evaluate are the players we see....and i saw a lack of effort from riley.

carr did get pressure up the middle...he was pushed back.

i dont get it...carr gets pressure, scrambles and turns it into a 10 yard gain and that was a great move.....carr gets pressure, scrambles and takes a loss and now its a bonehead mistake.

and dont think for a second im an appologist for carr. he was horrible against buffalo and i said just that. he was solid against the steelers imo and i wont shy away from it because the trend on this board happens to be anti carr.
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Old 09-20-2005   #25
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What about the play where there was pressure on Carr and the Olineman pushed the D rusher RIGHT into Carr?
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Old 09-20-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by awtysst
What about the play where there was pressure on Carr and the Olineman pushed the D rusher RIGHT into Carr?

and i said carr didnt make mistakes when?

that was a bonehead mistake i credit fully to carr.
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Old 09-20-2005   #27
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No way you can blame all this on Carr. Heck a couple of years ago we had 2 QB's down because f the oline and were stuck with a rookie 3rd rounder as our starting QB, that should give you a little hint. I'll admit that Carr LOOKS like he's not staying in the pocket but in reality his recievers are not getting open and his oline is not buying time for them to get open. Carr of course is going to have a few plays that are off the mark when you are facing top defenses, but no way you can pin it all on him.

So what do we need to fix our offense?
  • Upgrade out Center, he's a guard
  • Go get a veteran WR as our #2
  • Get a TE, we missed out on Putzier
  • Get a better QB coach, Carr doesn't seem comfortable
  • Hire a OC with imagination and ability to adjust, we do not have an element of surprise. Ever see our FB catch a pass?

Last edited by SESupergenius; 09-21-2005 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 09-21-2005   #28
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Let's talk about "grading tape", which nobody really does here. Most of us look at our Tivo replays and make judgements that usually fit our opinions. The problem is, football is a complex game and we don't know much of what is going on. I usually don't comment on these, because it's a losing argument. People know what they saw.

Here is an example - I've read several different analyses of the the Bills game, and I'm going to highlight one play in particular. It was the 3rd offensive play of the game, the Bills ran a stunt with their right tackle and end. Pitts and Riley ended up double teaming the tackle who ended up as the outside rusher, the end came up the middle and sacked Carr.

Most of the posts I read have placed the blame on Pitts for not making a block on the end as he swung to the middle; some placed it on McKinney for not coming over and picking up the end as he came through cleanly.

As simply as I can state it, this is what happened. The O-line was in a "slide left" scheme, where they, well, slide left to pick up the rushers. It is Riley's responsibility to stop sliding left at some point to let Pitts know that there are no other rushers in that direction, and he should pick up the man closest to in front of him. This would have been the end coming up the middle. Riley would then continue blocking the tackle on the outside. Riley, however, never stopped sliding left so Pitts continued in that direction, double teaming the tackle.

The sack was mostly Riley's fault, with some smaller responsibility on Pitts for not figuring it out on the fly. Most fans don't see that, because Riley very effectively blocked the tackle and looked like he was doing his job. He was doing part of his job well, but not the whole job.

This is an example of what I mean (in other posts) when I state the line isn't communicating like it should and Riley at times isn't executing the proper play for a given line scheme. This is one reason I state that Wand, who plays well with Pitts, should be playing.

I fully expect to be flamed for this post, and you can use my own words against me - "Let's talk about "grading tape", which nobody really does here. Most of us look at our Tivo replays and make judgements that usually fit our opinions. The problem is, football is a complex game and we don't know much of what is going on".

However, I know there are many thoughtful people on this board who may consider this, and keep it in mind when reading fan analyses, or performing their own.

Football is a team game, with many complex interactions beyond most of what we fans see.

Last edited by Runner; 09-21-2005 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 09-21-2005   #29
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Originally Posted by touttail
Dom Capers here, could you please spell O Line, so I can writh it in my little notepad.


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Old 09-21-2005   #30
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Carr isn't stepping up in the pocket when he needs to. It's almost like he's got an anxiety disorder in the pocket or maybe claustrophobia. I know he's not getting as much time as some QBs, but he's got to make better judgements in the pocket. He's a 4th year QB, he can't be making stupid plays like running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage. Something is up with DC, I don't know what it is, but he's not all there right now. I know it's not all on him, but he's not being the leader he needs to be.
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Old 09-21-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I'll admit that Carr LOOKS like he's not staying in the pocket but in reality his recievers are not getting open and his oline is not buying time for them to get open.
Open has a funny way of having different definitions. Look at the coverage Carr threw into in the MN game last year or the Titans game or heck a bunch of great, accurate throws made every weekend in the NFL where the DB has text book position, but the QB makes a throw into the one spot the DB has the least chance to make a play on it and then tell me our WR's aren't that open. I am far from a Carr hater and devoutly hope he can live up to the potential he has previously been building towards, but sitting in the stadium and watching on TV there have been numerous times where WR's were wide open and Carr doesn't get the ball to them. Sorry, but our WR's are not league worst can't get open against anyone WR's. Carr bears some (not all) responsibility for not seeing or not judging them open and making the throw.
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Old 09-21-2005   #32
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Carr does bare SOME of this, absolutely, but he does not bare all of it, and far from it I contend. Do you define "open" as a reciever with no players around him like that one play where Carr scrambled to his left and Armstrong was clearly open....but on the other side of the field? Carr would have had to slam on the brakes, turn his body and fling a dart to the middle of the field all the while his momentum is taking him to the sidelines to avoid pursuit. Do you define "open" when he repeated throws a ball right into the hands of recievers and the drop it? Bradford and AJ both missed easy catches last Sunday. They were drive killers. Do you define "open" as a reciever has beat his man but the line has been pushed back blocking his sight to the target and closed his passing lane?

I don't know, but there are just way too many things to be blaming the QB for all of this.

In addition, I consider the "Oline" to include the TE and RB when are in protection, so yes our O-line is not doing its job of pass protecting, much less run protection.
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Old 09-21-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Carr does bare SOME of this, absolutely, but he does not bare all of it, and far from it I contend. Do you define "open" as a reciever with no players around him like that one play where Carr scrambled to his left and Armstrong was clearly open....but on the other side of the field? Carr would have had to slam on the brakes, turn his body and fling a dart to the middle of the field all the while his momentum is taking him to the sidelines to avoid pursuit. Do you define "open" when he repeated throws a ball right into the hands of recievers and the drop it? Bradford and AJ both missed easy catches last Sunday. They were drive killers. Do you define "open" as a reciever has beat his man but the line has been pushed back blocking his sight to the target and closed his passing lane?

I don't know, but there are just way too many things to be blaming the QB for all of this.

In addition, I consider the "Oline" to include the TE and RB when are in protection, so yes our O-line is not doing its job of pass protecting, much less run protection.
We're both middle grounders to a degree on this it seems to me. Lack of consistant execution, not just by one player, but across the board starts looking like a coaching problem to me. Throwing away players who go on to pro-bowl seasons elsewhere is a coaching problem to me, reported quotes from opposing offensive coaches that the guy they are most scared of is a non-starter sounds like a coaching problem to me. I have no problem in the world with a ball control, verticle passing, 3-4 defense, but none of it seems to be working and it can so hmmmm, what are the coaches doing.
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Old 09-21-2005   #34
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I would say that is starts with Casserly. Is it Capers job or Casserly's job to keep and get rid of players? Does Capers make the decisions and Casserly does the paperwork? Fact is our players are not that great, that is a direct reflection of the GM job, just as our woes in our pass game are a direct reflection of the offensive coordinator.
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Old 09-21-2005   #35
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Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I would say that is starts with Casserly. Is it Capers job or Casserly's job to keep and get rid of players? Does Capers make the decisions and Casserly does the paperwork? Fact is our players are not that great, that is a direct reflection of the GM job, just as our woes in our pass game are a direct reflection of the offensive coordinator.
I tend to agree with this, but I'm not real happy with Capers right now either. For instance, I think Bradford ought to be on the bench and I'm sure it's Capers who keeps putting him back out there. I also see young players who aren't as good now as they were a year or 2 ago and I think that falls on Capers too. Where is the motivation? Why are we just now sitting players down for underperforming?
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Old 09-21-2005   #36
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Originally Posted by HJam72
I tend to agree with this, but I'm not real happy with Capers right now either. For instance, I think Bradford ought to be on the bench and I'm sure it's Capers who keeps putting him back out there. I also see young players who aren't as good now as they were a year or 2 ago and I think that falls on Capers too. Where is the motivation? Why are we just now sitting players down for underperforming?
Bradford should have been benched after dropping that pass that hit him right in the numbers. I believe that was a 3rd down play in the 1st quarter. It stopped an early drive that could have resulted in something other than a punt. We all know what happened after that.
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Old 09-29-2005   #37
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Originally Posted by Runner
Let's talk about "grading tape", which nobody really does here. Most of us look at our Tivo replays and make judgements that usually fit our opinions. The problem is, football is a complex game and we don't know much of what is going on. I usually don't comment on these, because it's a losing argument. People know what they saw.

Here is an example - I've read several different analyses of the the Bills game, and I'm going to highlight one play in particular. It was the 3rd offensive play of the game, the Bills ran a stunt with their right tackle and end. Pitts and Riley ended up double teaming the tackle who ended up as the outside rusher, the end came up the middle and sacked Carr.

Most of the posts I read have placed the blame on Pitts for not making a block on the end as he swung to the middle; some placed it on McKinney for not coming over and picking up the end as he came through cleanly.

As simply as I can state it, this is what happened. The O-line was in a "slide left" scheme, where they, well, slide left to pick up the rushers. It is Riley's responsibility to stop sliding left at some point to let Pitts know that there are no other rushers in that direction, and he should pick up the man closest to in front of him. This would have been the end coming up the middle. Riley would then continue blocking the tackle on the outside. Riley, however, never stopped sliding left so Pitts continued in that direction, double teaming the tackle.

The sack was mostly Riley's fault, with some smaller responsibility on Pitts for not figuring it out on the fly. Most fans don't see that, because Riley very effectively blocked the tackle and looked like he was doing his job. He was doing part of his job well, but not the whole job.

This is an example of what I mean (in other posts) when I state the line isn't communicating like it should and Riley at times isn't executing the proper play for a given line scheme. This is one reason I state that Wand, who plays well with Pitts, should be playing.

I fully expect to be flamed for this post, and you can use my own words against me - "Let's talk about "grading tape", which nobody really does here. Most of us look at our Tivo replays and make judgements that usually fit our opinions. The problem is, football is a complex game and we don't know much of what is going on".

However, I know there are many thoughtful people on this board who may consider this, and keep it in mind when reading fan analyses, or performing their own.

Football is a team game, with many complex interactions beyond most of what we fans see.
Your problem is that the Texans are looking for a quick fix, and the fans are getting tired of hearing "give him a chance and he will get better." This is Houston. If you play well in Houston, the fans idolize you. If you play anything else, they hate you. People feel that giving a kid one year is all that is deserved. If Carr or Davis of half the other players were given the same chance, independent of their draft position, they would not be playing either. :brickwall
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