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Old 09-18-2005   #61
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
Can a turnover be created if a fumble is not recovered??? Common sense, think here. You can force 100000 fumbles and if you dont recover a single one it dont mean ****.
too funny
you have to create the opportunity (i.e force the fumble) before you can have the turnover.

Lots of times the turnover is right place right time.
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Old 09-18-2005   #62
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Originally Posted by stevo3883
or we could have no depth at LB and have teams just run all over us.

Which is worse?

exactly on my other post.. they go hand in hand
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Old 09-18-2005   #63
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too funny
you have to create the opportunity (i.e force the fumble) before you can have the turnover.

Lots of times the turnover is right place right time.
Don't have to force anything. A player can just have the ball clear slip out of their hands.
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Old 09-18-2005   #64
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Originally Posted by Huge
Okay, let's include DT's as well as NT's and then include ALL LBs postions...

20 DT's and NT's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

7 ILB and OLB's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you'd like to include guys like Demarcus Ware (college DE's that projected as OLBs), then your case would look a little better.

But it's still a slam dunk against your argument. You can continue to debate it if you'd like. But you're going to lose and lose bad.
of course you consider guys like Ware, he was drafted to play LINEBACKER!

does Matt Jones count as a QB drafted in the 1st round? thats how stupid your assumption is.


now tell me, Is a guy like Lavar Arrington or Julian Peterson less valuable than pat williams?

surely they must be the product of a good DT, if one wasnt there they couldnt make plays!
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Old 09-18-2005   #65
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Originally Posted by Huge
Dude, you should really quit.
I'll break this down for ya. In case it slipped your mind or something.

Fumbles do NOT have to be FORCED to be lost. The ball wiggles free, a player sees a ghost and drops it, whatever. Fumbles DO have to be recovered to be TURNOVERS.

Got it?
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Old 09-18-2005   #66
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
Don't have to force anything. A player can just have the ball clear slip out of their hands.
Dude, really...it's getting bad.

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Originally Posted by stevo3883
of course you consider guys like Ware, he was drafted to play LINEBACKER!

does Matt Jones count as a QB drafted in the 1st round? thats how stupid your assumption is.


now tell me, Is a guy like Lavar Arrington or Julian Peterson less valuable than pat williams?

surely they must be the product of a good DT, if one wasnt there they couldnt make plays!
My assumption was stupid? I will venture to guess that you are assuming LBs are more valuable than DT's simply based on this statement...

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Originally Posted by stevo3883
And why is it do you think that not many DT's get taken early on? Because they arent as valuable as a playmaker at a position like CB or LB
Would you agree?

And now that I've shown that statement to be completely false, do you still believe LBs have more value than DT's (again, simply based on your very own statement)?

If you disagree, then admit your initial comment was off base.
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Old 09-18-2005   #67
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Dude, really...it's getting bad.

It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.
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Old 09-18-2005   #68
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
I'll break this down for ya. In case it slipped your mind or something.

Fumbles do NOT have to be FORCED to be lost. The ball wiggles free, a player sees a ghost and drops it, whatever. Fumbles DO have to be recovered to be TURNOVERS.

Got it?
I see now.

The Texans should invest in players that are around when balls mysteriously pop out of the offensive players hands.

What the hell was I thinking?

Seriously, you should take my previous advice.
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Old 09-18-2005   #69
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.
I'm not sure how you're proving him wrong. He was simply pointing out a specific example of a DLineman forcing a fumble that DJ recovered. Without the DLineman DJ doesn't get THAT fumble, and without DJ it isn't a turnover.
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Old 09-18-2005   #70
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Yeah I am about to say good night to this thread lol. These two are not getting it...
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Old 09-18-2005   #71
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Originally Posted by Huge
I see now.

The Texans should invest in players that are around when balls mysteriously pop out of the offensive players hands.

What the hell was I thinking?

Seriously, you should take my previous advice.
No, ok you are right. They should take players whos sole purpose on the team is to take on blocks(even though we had a player doing this...). Who needs tackles, fumble recoveries, INTs, Sacks when you have a guy who can take on blocks! My frame of mind is clearly a skew.
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Old 09-18-2005   #72
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Originally Posted by Huge
Okay, let's include DT's as well as NT's and then include ALL LBs postions...

20 DT's and NT's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

7 ILB and OLB's taken in the first round over the last 5 years.

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you'd like to include guys like Demarcus Ware (college DE's that projected as OLBs), then your case would look a little better.

But it's still a slam dunk against your argument. You can continue to debate it if you'd like. But you're going to lose and lose bad.
just this past year, we had Demarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, David Pollack, Derrick Johnson all being drafted in the top 17.

Then at DT we have Travis Johnson at 16, castillo at 28 and patterson at 31.

the year before we had 3 DT's taken in the middle 1st(tommy harris, vince wilfork, marcus tubbs), with 2 olb's taken in the mid-late 1st(d.j. williams, our own pride and joy babin) with 5 more olbs going in the second round comapred to 2 dt's.



Are you really so inept as to think a big NT like Seth Payne is as valuable as a great OLB? He occupys 1 blocker maybe 2 sometimes, but our lbs dont make plays.

We could have him occupy 1 maybe 2 sometimes, and have DJ make plays.

one was a need, one was for depth. We arent good enough to draft for depth yet, we need quality starters first.
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Old 09-18-2005   #73
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Originally Posted by texasguy346
I'm not sure how you're proving him wrong. He was simply pointing out a specific example of a DLineman forcing a fumble that DJ recovered. Without the DLineman DJ doesn't get THAT fumble, and without DJ it isn't a turnover.
No doubt. The debate then became fumble recoveries over forced fumbles. I honestly can't see anyone who has an OUNCE of football knowledge will take Forced Fumbles over Fumble recoveries. Thats like taking pass deflections over interceptions.
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Old 09-18-2005   #74
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No one said they would take FF over recovered fumbles, we were just stating that without FF, you don't get a fumble recovery.
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Old 09-18-2005   #75
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Originally Posted by texan279
Yeah I am about to say good night to this thread lol. These two are not getting it...

See thats the thing, why is it us not getting it?

I played football, infact, i was a LB that got stuck at NT and my job was to get past the slow fat center and sack the qb.

Thats not even a 3-4 guys job, his job is just to BE ther and take up space. The quality of play between the best at NT and the medium guys like Payne isnt a big gap.

But look at the gap between a guy like Peek, and a guy like Takeo Spikes.



but yet, I just dont get it do I?
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Old 09-18-2005   #76
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
It's getting bad because I'm proving you wrong?? Come on bro, some humility, please.
Okay, I can see you're a bit too stubborn to listen.

Get your textbook out, kid...

First you tried to validate DJ's greatness with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
However, TURNOVERS WIN GAMES. WINNING GAMES WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. AN OLB WHO HAS ALREADY PROVEN(yes I did just say DJ is proven...sack, FF in game 1 and now a FR in half of game two) THAT HE HAS HAD AN IMPACT IN THIS LEAGUE IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN A GUY WHO "battles in the trenches".
Now, your point about balls mysteriously popping out of the carrier's hands (for reasons such as ghosts and what not), would hold water (can't believe I just said that) if that happened in this case.

Clearly it did not as the fumble was caused by a defensive linemen.

You then followed that up with this gem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
Oh, my mistake. I forgot that the person causing the fumble is far more important than the one recovering it. Since you know, as soon as the ball is fumbled, the defense automatically gets it, right?
Now read slowly:

If there's not somebody that causes the fumblem then there is nobody to recover it (Hint: Because there is no fumble to recover).

So you tell me, which one is more important:

A. The guy that causes the fumble
B. The guy that recovers the fumble

Another hint: "A" can exist without "B". "B" cannot exist without "A".

Is this getting clearer? I'll slow down if need be...
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Old 09-18-2005   #77
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Originally Posted by texan279
No one said the would take FF over recovered fumbles, we were just stating that without FF, you don't get a fumble recovery.

So which defensive player forces the fumble when a RB clearly drops the ball with no defender within 5 yards of him? You know, like Jordan already did in the Raiders game?
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Old 09-18-2005   #78
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I played football, infact, i was a LB that got stuck at NT and my job was to get past the slow fat center and sack the qb.

Thats not even a 3-4 guys job, his job is just to BE ther and take up space. The quality of play between the best at NT and the medium guys like Payne isnt a big gap.

But look at the gap between a guy like Peek, and a guy like Takeo Spikes.



but yet, I just dont get it do I?
If you were a LB who got switched to NT you must be talking about Pee Wee of junior high football, and I do not mean to offend when saying that. I played football too from age 5 to age 22, so yeah I know a little something about it too...
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Old 09-18-2005   #79
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So which defensive player forces the fumble when a RB clearly drops the ball with no defender within 5 yards of him? You know, like Jordan already did in the Raiders game?
Honestly, how often does that happen? Most NFL RB's do not have a habit of just dropping because if they did the would be playing Canadian Arena football...
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Old 09-18-2005   #80
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Honestly, how often does that happen?
I don't know, but I got Tiki Barber circa 2000-2003. on the phone and he says quite often.
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