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Old 09-13-2005   #41
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Originally Posted by texans coach
What game were you watching? the other receivers were open, he didnt look their way. He was too busy, trying to give 80 the ball, Bradford was 1 on 1 backside, every play. But he didnt look his way.
The long ball to Bradford should tell you plenty, the Bills ran a cover 2, so whoever was going deep was going to be doubled.
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Old 09-13-2005   #42
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Originally Posted by texans coach
That was the pre-season, against the 3rd and 4th string. Did you even watch him during training camp, he couldnt even throw a 15yd out.
Excellent response! Especially the part where you said the same thing I said in my first line.

That was the pre-season, against the 3rd and 4th string. = I do know Ragone wasn't playing against first teamers (or with first teamers).

I pointed out Ragone had great pocket presence in the last pre-season game. That is all. Do you disagree with that?

Nice 3rd post though, coach.
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Old 09-13-2005   #43
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That wasnt a drop! Even Troy Vincent said he looked at him(Bradford) the whole play and when the ball was there, vincent was there also. How is that a drop, when the safety beats the ball? I can tell u never played the game.
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Old 09-13-2005   #44
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Carr is going to have a hard day, that was expected by me considering we are facing a top 5 defense, Hell, Manning had a subpar day on his standards. You'd expect Carr to throw at least 1 int in this game, maybe 2. But when your HB fumbles, your pocket is collapsing and your recievers are not getting open, then it's not all on the QB. Sorry, no way no how. You can rerun and look all you want at the replays, hunting for ammo to prove your point, but you still are missing whole picture. Carr was under deep pressure both from the sides and the front. If you say we don't know that it wasn't Gaffney's fault then you should be saying you don't know it's Carrs fault because you don't know what each OL's blocking assignment was? Was Norris supposed to pick up the LB or was our RT supposed to slide out to protect the end? You can ask these questions on every play. Capers himself said that people missed assignments and a couple of the OL said that the blocking scheme was not working. Does Carr block???

Carr gets credit for nine completions. As far as the immense pressure is concerned, after Carr watches the tape he needs to exercise the demons that plague him, because he is creating the pressure by not stepping into the pocket.
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What game were u watching? The other receivers were open, he was just locked on 80 all the time. If 80 wasnt open, he just thought that all the other receivers were covered.
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Old 09-13-2005   #45
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Excellent response! Especially the part where you said the same thing I said in my first line.

That was the pre-season, against the 3rd and 4th string. = I do know Ragone wasn't playing against first teamers (or with first teamers).

I pointed out Ragone had great pocket presence in the last pre-season game. That is all. Do you disagree with that?

Nice 3rd post though, coach.
Youre right! I agree.
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Old 09-13-2005   #46
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That's it. Fire the whole staff and start over. Put the 2nd stringers in for the WHOLE offense. We've got a year to figure out who to draft and trade for. Shut off the servers, redo the website, make everybody start a new membership, and let's everybody take some form of anti-depressant.

This board needs an online Psychologist, lol. I'll go first.

At least the Steelers fans can come here and get a good laugh.
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Old 09-13-2005   #47
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Originally Posted by texans coach
That wasnt a drop! Even Troy Vincent said he looked at him(Bradford) the whole play and when the ball was there, vincent was there also. How is that a drop, when the safety beats the ball? I can tell u never played the game.
well the golden rule, coach (sorry to ironic to pass up), is that if it hits your hands, catch the ball. despite my Hervoyel quote below, which i am using simply because it cracks me up, i think bradford is on the team because he earned his spot. i think he is very capable of producing in the NFL and i have no gripes about him on the roster. that being said, it was his fault he didn't catch the ball that was thrown to him on a crucial 3rd and long. in double coverage, you can't ask for a better ball (it hit him on both of his hands while he was falling with his back to the ground) to 'drop' in for you. he didn't make the play, simple as that. not that he always won't, and not that most do, but he did not this time (and a little piece of my soul died )

well i just got back from watching game tape up to the beginning of the second quarter and i'd like to point out some things that may not have been brought to light. i'm actually impressed with a few things, while being surprised/disappointed with others (but that's a gimme):

the good:

1. cc brown's (from now on referred to as CCB) amazing closing speed. he is also getting closer and closer to the label "sure tackler" IMO. an amazing 6th round choice, not upset one bit he is starting (and i'm a huge earl supporter from last year).

2. PBuc's physicality. he is more physically imposing than DRob, although we all know who the more physically dominating of the two is. still, i'm impressed with his ability to move his size that fast/quick. i think his two negated TFLs are also a great sign of things to come.

3. TJ! on the first goaline stand at the end of the 1st QTR, Mr. T split a double team on the goaline! and if i saw it correctly, we where in some sort of dime hybrid with only two DL in the formation. his disruption led to an assist with CCB (who stayed home and spied the run quite well) and more importantly a stop on third and goal.

4. babin's spin move looked much quicker and leads me to hope it will be more effective this year. he seems to be progressing nicely in all area's of his game as well.

the bad:

1. as good as the DL looked at points, their collective fatigue jumped out at me during one of the longer series. it's almost night and day from the beginning of the series till the end. maybe more rotation to keep the player's fresh? and while i think they are doing an adequate job of tying up lineman, i'd love to see more (or some, didn't notice any) slants/stunts to work towards creating the gaping holes caused by OL miscues. just a simple loop or crash stunt on either side might do wonders...

2. peek's trial by fire has begun. although i think he played about on par with babin (the OLBs played better the ILBs, but they all played solid), i saw somethings that i tend to think are keeping his play from being game changing/momentum swinging. of course the dropped freebie, but things like his angles and a noticeable amount of fatigue as well. his speed definitely helps him compensate for his hiccups, but once he becomes more efficient in his movements he will be far more than the average player he is right now.

3. the offensive blocking aside from the OL. gaffney, DD/wells, and murphy need to realize that if given a blocking assignment, that their block can make or break a plays success. not that they don't already, but we were one block away from 3-5 more yards per carry at least 3 times! and if a back is kept in for protection, then protect david! not that he didn't have enough time to make his reads (more often than not he does), but it shouldn't be your guy who gets him.

that being said, even though it's being discussed in length just about everywhere on the board, carr's confidence in his receivers/pocket presence was really, REALLY not there. if you watch lossman go through his reads, the time it takes him to get rid of the ball and the shape of his OL when he throws there is only one glaring difference between him and carr that i see. when lossman would make a throw, carr's happy feet would take over. i would say on average carr and lossman both had on average 3-3.5 seconds to make reads and throw the ball. the reason lossman looks like he has more time than carr (the majority of the time) is not because there's no incoming pressure, but because the ball is in the air before the blocking breaks down. hope i am contributing to an accurate evaluation of our team, just my


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Old 09-13-2005   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr0ck
well the golden rule, coach (sorry to ironic to pass up), is that if it hits your hands, catch the ball. despite my Hervoyel quote below, which i am using simply because it cracks me up, i think bradford is on the team because he earned his spot. i think he is very capable of producing in the NFL and i have no gripes about him on the roster. that being said, it was his fault he didn't catch the ball that was thrown to him on a crucial 3rd and long. in double coverage, you can't ask for a better ball (it hit him on both of his hands while he was falling with his back to the ground) to 'drop' in for you. he didn't make the play, simple as that. not that he always won't, and not that most do, but he did not this time (and a little piece of my soul died )

well i just got back from watching game tape up to the beginning of the second quarter and i'd like to point out some things that may not have been brought to light. i'm actually impressed with a few things, while being surprised/disappointed with others (but that's a gimme):

the good:

1. cc brown's (from now on referred to as CCB) amazing closing speed. he is also getting closer and closer to the label "sure tackler" IMO. an amazing 6th round choice, not upset one bit he is starting (and i'm a huge earl supporter from last year).

2. PBuc's physicality. he is more physically imposing than DRob, although we all know who the more physically dominating of the two is. still, i'm impressed with his ability to move his size that fast/quick. i think his two negated TFLs are also a great sign of things to come.

3. TJ! on the first goaline stand at the end of the 1st QTR, Mr. T split a double team on the goaline! and if i saw it correctly, we where in some sort of dime hybrid with only two DL in the formation. his disruption led to an assist with CCB (who stayed home and spied the run quite well) and more importantly a stop on third and goal.

4. babin's spin move looked much quicker and leads me to hope it will be more effective this year. he seems to be progressing nicely in all area's of his game as well.

the bad:

1. as good as the DL looked at points, their collective fatigue jumped out at me during one of the longer series. it's almost night and day from the beginning of the series till the end. maybe more rotation to keep the player's fresh? and while i think they are doing an adequate job of tying up lineman, i'd love to see more (or some, didn't notice any) slants/stunts to work towards creating the gaping holes caused by OL miscues. just a simple loop or crash stunt on either side might do wonders...

2. peek's trial by fire has begun. although i think he played about on par with babin (the OLBs played better the ILBs, but they all played solid), i saw somethings that i tend to think are keeping his play from being game changing/momentum swinging. of course the dropped freebie, but things like his angles and a noticeable amount of fatigue as well. his speed definitely helps him compensate for his hiccups, but once he becomes more efficient in his movements he will be far more than the average player he is right now.

3. the offensive blocking aside from the OL. gaffney, DD/wells, and murphy need to realize that if given a blocking assignment, that their block can make or break a plays success. not that they don't already, but we were one block away from 3-5 more yards per carry at least 3 times! and if a back is kept in for protection, then protect david! not that he didn't have enough time to make his reads (more often than not he does), but it shouldn't be your guy who gets him.

that being said, even though it's being discussed in length just about everywhere on the board, carr's confidence in his receivers/pocket presence was really, REALLY not there. if you watch lossman go through his reads, the time it takes him to get rid of the ball and the shape of his OL when he throws there is only one glaring difference between him and carr that i see. when lossman would make a throw, carr's happy feet would take over. i would say on average carr and lossman both had on average 3-3.5 seconds to make reads and throw the ball. the reason lossman looks like he has more time than carr (the majority of the time) is not because there's no incoming pressure, but because the ball is in the air before the blocking breaks down. hope i am contributing to an accurate evaluation of our team, just my


Great break down of the game. Its only proper to reply after youve done your research. Youve set the standard for the message board. U need to apply for the head coach position!!!!!
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Old 09-13-2005   #49
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Great thread, and observations. I'm glad you guys somehow held your noses, and rewatched this puppy, because I would rather be stripped naked, tied to a tree over a giant fire ant mound, and have honey poured over me, then watch that train wreck again. But, hey that's just me.
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Old 09-13-2005   #50
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I watched the game again today on my dvr also. You're right. With the emotions stripped away I was able to see things different too.

The offensive line wasn't as bad as I thought. One sack came on a stunt between Wade and Wiegert but the rest were on the outside. Greer got one on the inside of Wade but that was because Wade was locked up with someone else. Actually he was back with Carr because his man was so fast around the edge. Other than that it was the backs that couldn't block that led to sacks.

The defensive line did play a good game other than penalties. GFunk could be back. Maybe TJ being here is a motivating factor.

I didn't see the ILB's much because I was paying more attention to the DL so I won't comment on them. I don't want to rewatch the game again to see their play

OLB's did pretty good from what I could tell and did get some pressure on Losman but he proved to be pretty elusive and also got rid of the ball to avoid sacks.

DRob is awesome. Nuff said. PBuc played soft in the first half but did a little better in the 2nd half. Tackled better than advertised.

CCBrown was good against the run and around the ball alot. I didn't see him good enough in coverage to comment.

M Robinson is no worry. We know what we have there.

Carr wasn't as bad as I thought either so I dis agree with you on this one. Some of the balls were on the money. Bradford had one perfectly thrown to him that he should have caught even with the coverage. It would have moved us at least in field goal range and given us a first down. Same with Gaffney not turning around. We are desperately hurting for someone to emerge as an legit #2 receiver. The ball to AJ in triple coverage was not very smart but at that point the Texans were beginning to get desperate to make something happen and Carr tried to force it in to AJ. I'm not ready to see Carr benched yet.

Game changing plays.

Peek not intercepting and taking it to the house along with Bradford not catching the pass to him in the 3rd quarter. These 2 plays would have made the score either 19-17 or 21-19 and put us right in the thick of things.

Penalties that gave the Bills first downs and extended their drives especially the roughing the passer call on Simmons.

The ball that was stripped from Carr before his arm went forward. It was the result of another effortless block.

I won't comment on the coaching staff because most alredy know how I feel about Capers/Palmer/Fangio and it hasn't changed. I don't think anyone will lose their job this year unless wehave 7 wins or less with the exception of Palmer. If we look bad against Pittsburgh and don't have much production from our offense he could be gone during the bye week and replaced with Pendry.
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Old 09-13-2005   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bckey
I watched the game again today on my dvr also. You're right. With the emotions stripped away I was able to see things different too.

The offensive line wasn't as bad as I thought. One sack came on a stunt between Wade and Wiegert but the rest were on the outside. Greer got one on the inside of Wade but that was because Wade was locked up with someone else. Actually he was back with Carr because his man was so fast around the edge. Other than that it was the backs that couldn't block that led to sacks.

The defensive line did play a good game other than penalties. GFunk could be back. Maybe TJ being here is a motivating factor.

I didn't see the ILB's much because I was paying more attention to the DL so I won't comment on them. I don't want to rewatch the game again to see their play

OLB's did pretty good from what I could tell and did get some pressure on Losman but he proved to be pretty elusive and also got rid of the ball to avoid sacks.

DRob is awesome. Nuff said. PBuc played soft in the first half but did a little better in the 2nd half. Tackled better than advertised.

CCBrown was good against the run and around the ball alot. I didn't see him good enough in coverage to comment.

M Robinson is no worry. We know what we have there.

Carr wasn't as bad as I thought either so I dis agree with you on this one. Some of the balls were on the money. Bradford had one perfectly thrown to him that he should have caught even with the coverage. It would have moved us at least in field goal range and given us a first down. Same with Gaffney not turning around. We are desperately hurting for someone to emerge as an legit #2 receiver. The ball to AJ in triple coverage was not very smart but at that point the Texans were beginning to get desperate to make something happen and Carr tried to force it in to AJ. I'm not ready to see Carr benched yet.

Game changing plays.

Peek not intercepting and taking it to the house along with Bradford not catching the pass to him in the 3rd quarter. These 2 plays would have made the score either 19-17 or 21-19 and put us right in the thick of things.

Penalties that gave the Bills first downs and extended their drives especially the roughing the passer call on Simmons.

The ball that was stripped from Carr before his arm went forward. It was the result of another effortless block.

I won't comment on the coaching staff because most alredy know how I feel about Capers/Palmer/Fangio and it hasn't changed. I don't think anyone will lose their job this year unless wehave 7 wins or less with the exception of Palmer. If we look bad against Pittsburgh and don't have much production from our offense he could be gone during the bye week and replaced with Pendry.
And you forgot about another crucial 3rd down, when DC threw 80 on a slant and he dropped it. No one is superman. They all had dropped balls that hit their hands at the same time with being smashed. Now u tell me the difference!!!! If there is any.
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Old 09-13-2005   #52
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That wasnt a drop! Even Troy Vincent said he looked at him(Bradford) the whole play and when the ball was there, vincent was there also. How is that a drop, when the safety beats the ball? I can tell u never played the game.
Wrong play there Capers. On Vincent 1st interception he said he had is eye keyed on Andre to make sure he didn't break up field, Carr's options at that point were limited because he was outside the pocket. On Bradfords, it was clear as day that Bradford had it in his hands and really did nothing to help himself get the ball.
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Old 09-13-2005   #53
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i wish i had as big a tv as some of you guys, cause on my tv i dont get to see the wr's running their routes that often. i would like to be able to see the wr's because i think that is the key to how well car is doing. we already know carr doesnt have a long time to get rid of the ball so the next question is, does he have anyone to throw it to? if the answer is yes then we need to start pointing the finger at carr. if the answer is no then we need to leave him alone an address the other positions(you cant expect a quarterback to do much with no time and one open)
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Old 09-13-2005   #54
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i wish i had as big a tv as some of you guys, cause on my tv i dont get to see the wr's running their routes that often. i would like to be able to see the wr's because i think that is the key to how well car is doing. we already know carr doesnt have a long time to get rid of the ball so the next question is, does he have anyone to throw it to? if the answer is yes then we need to start pointing the finger at carr. if the answer is no then we need to leave him alone an address the other positions(you cant expect a quarterback to do much with no time and one open)
Trust me, it's a team effort, Carr is bearing more than his share of the blame however.
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Old 09-13-2005   #55
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Plain and simple Carr must shoulder much of the blame on offense. Missed reads, not looking off defenders, a 3 step drop and still holding the ball too long...
The other part of the collapse on offense - COACHING. How many times do we have to see a rolling pocket work only to abandon it. Hey if the O line is not going to protect or support a pocket passer then we must adjust to Carr's strengths...operating on the run.
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Old 09-13-2005   #56
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Default another ouch from Troy Vincent

This against a Buffalo defensive game plan that wasn't very complicated. "We showed a lot of things that we ran in the preseason," said Bills free safety Troy Vincent, who intercepted Carr twice. "We didn't have a bunch of guys jumping around out there and we didn't disguise a lot of our coverages. We basically played a pretty vanilla defense."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...arr/index.html
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Old 09-13-2005   #57
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Of course Vincent is going to talk trash, he got 2 picks. And right after that in the same column:

The most glaring problem isn't Carr. It's what's going on around him. There still isn't a legitimate second receiver on the roster to complement Johnson, who certainly will face double coverage all season. There also isn't a tight end that could be considered a reliable receiver. So when you talk about the weapons Carr has at his disposal, it basically amounts to two people -- Johnson and running back Domanick Davis. That isn't going to get it done. Moreover, Carr still isn't getting enough pass protection. After all the talk about using more three- and five-step drops and timing routes to help keep Carr upright -- he had been sacked 140 times in his first three NFL seasons -- Houston still had no answers for Buffalo's pass rush.



Nice try Toro.
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Old 09-13-2005   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Of course Vincent is going to talk trash, he got 2 picks. And right after that in the same column:

The most glaring problem isn't Carr. It's what's going on around him. There still isn't a legitimate second receiver on the roster to complement Johnson, who certainly will face double coverage all season. There also isn't a tight end that could be considered a reliable receiver. So when you talk about the weapons Carr has at his disposal, it basically amounts to two people -- Johnson and running back Domanick Davis. That isn't going to get it done. Moreover, Carr still isn't getting enough pass protection. After all the talk about using more three- and five-step drops and timing routes to help keep Carr upright -- he had been sacked 140 times in his first three NFL seasons -- Houston still had no answers for Buffalo's pass rush.



Nice try Toro.
No, not a nice try. There is a difference between someone giving their observation that actually played in the game, Vincent, and a reporter who does not cover the Texans on a regular basis.

Large difference.
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Old 09-13-2005   #59
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And Vincent can say that for every game they play this year, they are not the Patriots where they hide much of the packages. They just have a great defense with great players.
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Old 09-13-2005   #60
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now the coaching staff is posting
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