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Old 07-16-2004   #61
powda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I have 3 good resources that say the Texans were persuing him, you have none that say they haven't..



(your sources)
-The Texans, Redskins, Packers, Ravens and Browns are believed to be interested in Gildon.June 2, 2004 9:28 PM
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...04-310500.html

-"I've gotten a lot of calls -- Green Bay, Baltimore, Houston, Cleveland," Peter Schaffer said yesterday. Wednesday, June 02, 2004
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04154/325780.stm

-and ofcourse peter king (whom i cant seem to find a link to)




you have sources wich say the texans are believed to be after gildon and one that says they made a phone call sometime before june 2nd.

-firstly, all of your sources are dated early after the june 1st cuts (june 2nd) so the information is speculative to some degree and perhaps a bit outdated
the sources i gave you were dated at various times since june 1st.

-secondly, i would be upset if the texans hadnt at least made a phone call to the best 3-4 linebacker on the free agent market (one by the way who dom capers has personal experience with). do i need to rehash my point about the texans recieving calls from all but 4-5 teams with the henson soap opera?

-and finally, not one of your sources makes a refrence to the texans inviting gildon to houston to see the facilities or negotiate a contract. there are numerous sources throughout the net that say the bengals, bears, bills, and another team or so have done just that. those teams are actively seeking to sign gildon. houston (as have at least a dozen other teams) made a simple inquiry. thats part of the buisness.

i call it speculation - you call it fact

i call it an inquiry - you call it an active hunt to sign gildon

until you can provide me with a source that claims the texans invited gildon to houston or they've attempted to negotiate a contract with him, i'm not buying it.

this portion of our conversation is a stalemate.


so i'll move on to other bits of our debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Gildon is a strong-side linebacker, same as Kailee Wong. Both had the same about of total tackles, yet Houston was on the field more. Gildon had 6 sacks yet Wong only had 3. So if you want to compare apples to apples, Gildon still comes out on top. .
i didnt compare apples to apples because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
One of several scenarios would have Gildon start at LOLB, Babins at ROLB, Wong at BLB and Sharper at MLB. .
your not seeking to take wong out of a starting role. what your suggesting instead is to dismiss foreman who i will agree isnt our best starting linebacker. however, one of the reasons i was so willing to contrast the diffrence in their tackles (135 vs 61) was to illustrate hes not as bad as it would seem you've implied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
No you want to compare Gildon to Sharper, that's is a little more tougher .

yes, i did compare gildon to sharper because...


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Gildon is better than Wong, Foreman, Babins, and possibly Sharper.
a. it was used to illustrate an extreme with refrence to the additional 6 quarters our defense got to gain their stats. 103 additonal tackles is a lot...and i think this displays how misguided your notion of an extra 6 quarters is.

b. you compared gildon to sharper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
As far as your comment about players like antonio bryant who attack their coach because they're determined to get more playing time. I'm not sure what your point is.

i mentioned it because players arent always so eager to sit the bench and "learn" for a few years behind a vetran player as you suggested.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Gildon only decline is from is great season of 13.5 sacks
that was a very nice season and a lot to live up to ,but his sack numbers have declined. as for his tackles? he's never been a player to put up great numbers in that category to begin with...but his tackles have decreased.

i'm not sold on this rebound effect you keep reffering to. he is 32 or 33 ,but he does have 11 years in the nfl...thats a LOT of mileage.

and i'm not sure i follow what you think the texans would do if we signed gildon. move wong inside to replace foreman as you suggested in your scenerio or compare "apples to apples" and have gildon ( a strong side linebacker ) replace babin ( a strong side linebacker )?

i do think its in their long term plans to move wong inside so i'm not in total disagreement with you on that topic ,but it would pose some serious question marks among our linebacking core we wouldnt have without gildon's addition...

a. sharper's fine no consideration here
b. babin a rookie (?)- already a question until we see how he plays
c. wong (?)- now hes not just flipped sides on the field but suddenly hes moved inside where hes never played before
d. gildon (?)-you suggested he move from strong side to weak side on a team hes never played with before

all of a sudden the linebacking core is in complete disarray specifically because of the addition of gildon

if you'd perfer the texans bench babin in favor of gildon, thats in direct contrast to what the texans have done in their brief history...

carr v banks
davis v mack
pitts v a veteran
johnson v a veteran
wand v a veteran
robinson v coleman
(i'm sure i've missed a few)

and now the texans have named babin a starter over any other veteran at that position. no doubt some of those decission were based on being an expansion team, but it also shows a reoccuring philosophy the texans have...until the texans are a contender for at least the playoffs they want to give their younger players every oppurtunity to learn on the field.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
The Steelers clearly cut Gildon because of his high salary, they'v done that many times to their stars in the past.
1.The Steelers will count about $1.3 million against their 2004 cap for Gildon

2.Gildon knew his 10-year Steelers career was effectively over when they signed his former backup, Clark Haggans, to a $10.2 million, four-year contract on March 6. Haggans will slide into Gildon's starting position

(source)
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1814557


i couldnt find the specifics of haggans' contract ,but looking at the numbers i'm not convinced gildon was cut only for financial reasons. it would seem haggans signed as heavy a contract (for this year anyway) as gildon had.

the bottom line is, do you think gildon can help the texans succeed? i don't. we have enough young talent on our roster who need an oppurtunity to develop while we're not contenders. whats the purpose in signing a starting linebacker who will only be productive for another year or so (if that) ,and causes a major shift in our linebacking core?

you see the 13.5 sacks he had in 2000

i see another charlie clemons
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Old 07-16-2004   #62
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I think you're both wrong!!! My guess is that he'll sign with the bills for a one-year deal worth around $1.25 million.......

........some time later........

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...ohn&id=1841489


Ha I knew I was right
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Old 07-16-2004   #63
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i never said he wouldnt sign with the bills...i implied he wouldnt be with the texans because we werent activley trying to sign him. ha!

does this mean that last nail has been hammered into the coffin on this post?

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Old 07-17-2004   #64
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The 31-year-old Gildon will compete with Jeff Posey for the strongside linebacking job.
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Old 07-17-2004   #65
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I figured the Bills would not be totally happy with Posey. JP is a one-trick pony.
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Old 07-17-2004   #66
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Gildon is no where near as good as sharper, sharper has to be the most underrated linebacker in the league
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Old 07-18-2004   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
i never said he wouldnt sign with the bills...i implied he wouldnt be with the texans because we werent activley trying to sign him. ha!

does this mean that last nail has been hammered into the coffin on this post?

It will be as soon as you admit that I r teh winnar.

On another note:

I read in another post that mngmnt has shifted from the 5 year plan to a winNOW philosophy, and I think this is a good piece of evidence that winNOW is not the case. Would signing gildon have made us a better football team in 2004? YES. There is not a doubt in my mind that IN 2004 gildon would have been a better LOLB then babin will be. I'll go further and say that I believe that in 2004 I believe that marcus coleman would have made for a better CB than Robinson will make. And one more time...I think that in 2004 Pitts would have been a better LT then Wand will be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic about 2004, and I don't disagree with any of the aforementioned moves, but I think that come 2005 we'll be looking at the beginning of a winning franchise--not just a 'team that made the playoffs once.'
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Old 07-18-2004   #68
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Default Gildon signs with Bills.

With Trotter going back to the eagles and Gildon going to the Bills each with 1 year deals. The best players left on the open market are gone.
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Old 07-19-2004   #69
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I think it's easy to see why the Bills got Gildon. Or that the Bengals, Bills and Texans had some interest in him....They all had coaches that were the Steelers, Gildons former team.
Quote:
firstly, all of your sources are dated early after the june 1st cuts (june 2nd) so the information is speculative
I've seen it being reported that as far back as April Draft that Gildon was going to be cut June 1st, there were no talks with the Steelers and the date was just a formality. I doubt seriously that all the phone calls came in to his agent on June 1.
Quote:
-secondly, i would be upset if the texans hadnt at least made a phone call to the best 3-4 linebacker on the free agent market (one by the way who dom capers has personal experience with). do i need to rehash my point about the texans recieving calls from all but 4-5 teams with the henson soap opera?
That seems to be an apple and oranges kind of take. Henson was a rookie and there was really not a lot of information about him and his status for some time. He was a rookie and people were curious about his skill level. You say the all of the teams in the league except for 4-5 had some sort of interest in him by phone. But did you know that 20 teams actually showed up for his workout? That's well over half the league that actually came out and saw him workout in addition to the casual inquiries by phone.

I never said that the Texans were on a die hard mission to get this guy, all I said was that they were interested in him. I'm sure the Texans were interested him and wanted to know his asking price. You don't need to work out a player and bring him to Texas for that.
Quote:
i mentioned it because players arent always so eager to sit the bench and "learn" for a few years behind a vetran player as you suggested.
Well in this case I guess he is, because his is reporting back to the team. And here is a little snippet from Billy Miller with the signing of old-man Bruener, "I think it's great that they brought Bruener in," Miller said. "Mark has taught me some things that have helped me become a better tight end."

Quote:
his tackles have decreased.
No, you are wrong. Last year he had 42 combined tackles. He had the same amount in 2001 and 1999 and better than 1997 and 1998. That is a fact. source=nfl.com

Quote:
a. sharper's fine no consideration here
b. babin a rookie (?)- already a question until we see how he plays
c. wong (?)- now hes not just flipped sides on the field but suddenly hes moved inside where hes never played before
d. gildon (?)-you suggested he move from strong side to weak side on a team hes never played with before

all of a sudden the linebacking core is in complete disarray specifically because of the addition of gildon
I agree on Sharper and Babin. Wong used to be a middle linebacker with the Vikes. So its not that great of a switch as you suggest. I suggest gildon play on the strong side where he's always played. I don't think I've ever mentioned Gildon on the week side. But if the Texans feels Wong can do it, no reason to think Gildon couln't.
Quote:
if you'd perfer the texans bench babin in favor of gildon, thats in direct contrast to what the texans have done in their brief history...
Absolutely, I disagree with most of "trial by fire" insertions that the Texans coaches have done. I'm a rebel that way. I've always liked a QB to sit for some time on the bench and learn a bit. Most teams have done it that way. Aside from HB and CB I think a rookie should be brought along slower at other positions. So yes I do disagree with that. How much did Carr learn while on his back? Ask Aikman if he thinks he should have sat early in his career.

You see Babin as a 10 sack guy his rookie year learning a new position in the nfl. I saw Gildon as just someone to help him along as most of the Steelers great LB's have done in the past. Rookies LB's just don't produce like vets do in the 3-4, this is a fact.
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Old 07-19-2004   #70
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lmao. wow. somehow now i feel complete...i've something to argue again.
tommorow...

and thank you.

still arguing the issue after its dead...stubborn. i like that.
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Last edited by powda; 07-19-2004 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 07-19-2004   #71
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What better way to kill the time before training camp!
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Old 07-20-2004   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I think it's easy to see why the Bills got Gildon. Or that the Bengals, Bills and Texans had some interest in him....They all had coaches that were the Steelers, Gildons former team.

your claiming the texans were after gildon because we have a coach that used to be with the steelers? how many teams have former steelers coaches on their staff that didnt pursue gildon? i'll wager its more. and either way does it really have any relevance to wether or not the texans were indeed after gildon? i think not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I've seen it being reported that as far back as April Draft that Gildon was going to be cut June 1st, there were no talks with the Steelers and the date was just a formality. I doubt seriously that all the phone calls came in to his agent on June 1.

so all of my sources are worth doubting ,but yours should be etched in stone?
you have one source that says the texans made a phone call and even in the context of the quote it says they called him the previous day (june 1st). thats great and no surprise considering the texans are one of the few 3-4 teams. to some schmoe in b.f.e. it probably would make sense that the texans might be a contender for gildon so why not spotlight the texans as opposed to another 15 teams? but the bottom line is TEAMS CALL. why do you think pro teams send scouts to places like alcorn st? they dont want to miss out on a prospect because their not informed. once again, you do not have a source that says the texans ever attempted to negotiate a contract or even invited gildon to houston. i've provided you with numerous sources that say other teams did just that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I never said that the Texans were on a die hard mission to get this guy, all I said was that they were interested in him.

vaguley, im reminded of a former president who so boldly asked, "what is is?"

will you at least agree with me theres a distinct diffrence between an inquiry (basic contract guidelines, and player intrest) versus an active attempt to sign a player (come visist buffalo, tour our facilities, meet the players and coaching staff, we'll give you an idea of how we invision you in our defense, and bring your agent because we're ready to talk about how much we want to pay you, and we want to put it on paper as a contract).

and henson may be an extreme example ,but it is still a look into how the buisness works...so no, i wouldnt call it apples to oranges.


(antonio bryant must be willing to sit the bench)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Well in this case I guess he is, because his is reporting back to the team.
he's eager to sit the bench because he hasnt retired or held out in demand of a trade? thats in direct contrast to attacking your coach. actions do speak louder then words.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Absolutely, I disagree with most of "trial by fire" insertions that the Texans coaches have done. I'm a rebel that way.
and i havent agreed with the texans drafting injured player after injured player ,but my opinion will have no effect on what the team does. they've dislayed a tendency in their short history to do the opposite of what you'd like to see them do. i think its unrealistic to expect them to change that now especially when it means they have to bench a first round pick in favor of a 2 year stop gap like gildon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
his tackles have decreased
Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
No, you are wrong.

year. team. gm. (total tackles) tackles sacks
2002 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 67 45.0 9
2003 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 61 42.0 6
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3501

wow that same source shows just the opposite of what you claim. i see a decrease in tackles (as well as sacks). can we agree its deffinitley not an increase in tackles?

do i think gildon could probably help the team this year? yes. do i think he's a short term solution to a long term problem? yes. do i think gildon ripping away playing time from babin would hurt babin's development more then it would help him? uhhhhhhh, yes!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
You see Babin as a 10 sack guy his rookie year learning a new position in the nfl.
i never suggested babin would put up any numbers in particular. what i did suggest was overall babin has a higher celing then gildon at this point in his career. gildon might very well put up much better numbers then babin this year ,but after that i think its no contest. gildon is comming into his 11th year! hes not a kicker or a punter or a quarterback or a mascot. hes a linebacker. i'll give him points for longevity ,but i dont see him performing at a productive level for much longer. can you say that about babin?
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