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Old 09-10-2005   #21
Corrosion
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I think Capers is Un-Willing to vary from his system if its working or not ....He's gonna run the ball up the gut on offense and he's gonna play the 3-4 defense period .... accept in nickle situations.

The ability to make adjustments is totally lost on Capers and his staff ....

The good coaches make adjustments on the fly , take for example the Raiders Vs. Patriots game Thrusday night . The Patriots couldnt stop the run in their base 3-4 and Bill Belichick went to a 4-3 to stop it . That change slowed down the Raiders running game , left them in obvious passing downs and effectively won the game for the Patriots . Those kind of adjustments are why Belichick coached teams win football games . His players dont just buy into his system they buy into everything the man says .....
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Old 09-10-2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
Interesting, because Belechik coaches for this year and winning this
year and puts a defense/offense on the field thats suited for the players
he has right now as oppose to players he may have next year or the
year after or 8-12 yrs down the road

Bill Belichik has had a superbowl contending team for a long time. Capers has yet to have a playoff team here in Houston. You can't just expect to go out and win it all your first few years. Ask Capers, he was in the NFC championship game his second year with Carolina. what happened after that. It's all been answered in previous posts. Cass and Capers are building this team to be a consistent winner instead of a one hit wonder like the Panthers were. Don't let the 8-12 year thing fool you. I don't think that was accurate. Most Texans fans can accept the the first few years as our expansion years. Now is the time to see what we're made of, I can't wait.
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Old 09-10-2005   #23
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Let me clear up the 8-12 year thing. I am not saying we are going to be an expansion team for 8-12 years. I am saying that the Texans will see SOME lingering affects(may be real small stuff) of being an expansion team for that long.

First few years lots of holes.
Next few years decent first team but minimal depth.
Eventally the depth fills in.

In my opinion the Expansion Excuse is good for this year and that is it.
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Old 09-10-2005   #24
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I think the key point in LBCs theory was "Winning Consistantly" ie. the Pats, Eagles, Stealers etc. In that context that sort of time table makes sense. Depth is a MAJOR reason they all win year in and year out. Good drafting creats depth and starters are then home grown and you don't have to jump at every big name FA that come available as some are want to do.
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Old 09-10-2005   #25
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Originally Posted by edo783
I think the key point in LBCs theory was "Winning Consistantly" ie. the Pats, Eagles, Stealers etc. In that context that sort of time table makes sense. Depth is a MAJOR reason they all win year in and year out. Good drafting creats depth and starters are then home grown and you don't have to jump at every big name FA that come available as some are want to do.
did you know the pats have over 20 free agents?
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Old 09-10-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by tsip
did you know the pats have over 20 free agents?
But who is the last guy they signed for a big money contract? Obviously they had Correy Dillon last year in free-agency, but he wasn't paid a ridiculous amount of money.
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Old 09-10-2005   #27
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Originally Posted by run-david-run
But who is the last guy they signed for a big money contract? Obviously they had Correy Dillon last year in free-agency, but he wasn't paid a ridiculous amount of money.
a free agent is a free agent is a free agent --next excuse will be their hair is
the wrong color---wow, if excuses would only translate into wins
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Old 09-10-2005   #28
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Originally Posted by tsip
did you know the pats have over 20 free agents?

provide a link.

if a free agent is a free agent is a free agent then should we be counting people like lewis sanders and even undrafted free agents?

i just went through the texans roster and counted at least 25 guys who werent drafted in the expansion or the collegiate draft...does that count?

and i dont get you...your arrguing capers should get the axe because he dosent do things exactly like belicheck? lets get things back on track.
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Last edited by powda; 09-10-2005 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 09-10-2005   #29
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In 2002, 2003 and 2004 we did not have the personnel to "properly" run either the 3-4 or the 4-3 defense so don't get too wound up over Capers statement. From the very start we were closest to having the players to run the 3-4 and that was by design. In the expansion draft they took Payne and Walker who were 2/3 of the defensive line we needed for example.

Don't get all excited when he says they have the people to run it now. A lot of that remains to be seen. The secondary will have it's ups and downs but overall they're going to be pretty good. Will the linebacker moves pay off? Will the defensive line be able to pull it's share of the weight this year? Those are the questions that keep me up late. If the answer is "yes" then ok, we have the personnel to run the 3-4 now. If Greenwood stinks it up or Robaire Smith keeps playing soft like most of last season then we're not going to be very good and they'll keep tinkering with it.

But we were always much farther away from having 4-3 personnel than 3-4.
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Old 09-10-2005   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
provide a link.

if a free agent is a free agent is a free agent then should we be counting people like lewis sanders and even undrafted free agents?

i just went through the texans roster and counted at least 25 guys who werent drafted in the expansion or the collegiate draft...does that count?

and i dont get you...your arrguing capers should get the axe because he dosent do things exactly like belicheck? lets get things back on track.
where did I say axe Capers? I'm just comparing some things the winning
SB coach does and-just once in a while-the could ask their
fellow buddies to back up their post, adds to credibility
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Old 09-10-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
provide a link.

if a free agent is a free agent is a free agent then should we be counting people like lewis sanders and even undrafted free agents?

i just went through the texans roster and counted at least 25 guys who werent drafted in the expansion or the collegiate draft...does that count?

and i dont get you...your arrguing capers should get the axe because he dosent do things exactly like belicheck? lets get things back on track.
http://www.patriots.com/team/index.c...ters&Print=yes

many posters keep making the pont that to win, you have to go through
the draft w/few free agents--and, no, it doesn't matter what type of
free agent...actually, Patriots list 22 free agents on their roster

So, if the Texans have 25 free agents (please provide proof/list) what is
the big point that it's going to take longer to win because we are doing
it differently?
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Old 09-10-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
where did I say axe Capers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
Too, no coach in the modern era of expansion has lasted 8-12 yrs,which means everything starts over with the new head coach--sorry,but I'm of the opinion sooner than later
so what should i infer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
and i dont get you...your arrguing capers should get the axe because he dosent do things exactly like belicheck?
you might read that again and notice this time it was a question...(hence the sentence followed by a question mark)
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Old 09-10-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powda
so what should i infer?



you might read that again and notice this time it was a question...(hence the sentence followed by a question mark)
Another poster mentioned the 8-12 yrs w/o ever backing that point up.
I mentioned the only recent expansion teams as a reference that it has
not taken other teams that long--in fact these other teams won and fired
their 1st head coaches within 8 yrs, let alone 12. So, where's the proof/
link for that post?

Too, I choose to compare Capers to the best Coach in football because
their styles/philosophies are so different and Belechik is a consistent
winning coach and Capers is not.

Now, I've answered your questions, please answer mine...
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Old 09-10-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
I mentioned the only recent expansion teams as a reference that it has not taken other teams that long--in fact these other teams won and fired their 1st head coaches within 8 yrs, let alone 12.
a)your comparing teams who had diffrent bennifits when they started.

b)those teams fired their head coach for a reason...instant success followed by a gutter run...why? because of poor cap managment. your own quote only makes your arrgument look worse........if they had been doing something right wouldnt those head coaches still be there?

the formulas in the making of those teams was flawed. in hindsight that should be pretty obvious. i credit casserly for taking the slower unbeaten path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
Too, I choose to compare Capers to the best Coach in football because their styles/philosophies are so different and Belechik is a consistent
winning coach and Capers is not.

belechik was not a consistent winner with the browns. and their philosophies arent all that diffrent...both conservative, disciplinarian, 3-4 pundits. if anything you could arrgue capers is closer to being belechik then the majority of the other coaches in the nfl. and yet you choose to be critical. surprise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
Now, I've answered your questions, please answer mine...
i'll let you do your own math...but i was kind enough to provide ample lists...


(expansion draft) http://football.about.com/library/we...nsiondraft.htm

1 Tony Boselli OT Jaguars $6.89 million
2 Ryan Young OT Jets $563,000
3 Aaron Glenn CB Jets $8.01 million
4 Gary Walker DT Jaguars $5.25 million
5 Jamie Sharper LB Ravens $2.88 million
6 Jermaine Lewis WR Ravens $4.29 million
7 Marcus Coleman CB Jets $5.48 million
8 Seth Payne DT Jaguars $2.78 million
9 Matt Campbell OG Redskins $875,000
10 Matt Stevens S Patriots $565,000
11 Jeremy McKinney OG Browns $405,760
12 Ryan Schau OT Eagles $563,000
13 Charlie Rogers RB Seahawks $563,000
14 Sean McDermott TE Buccaneers $300,000
15 Jabari Issa DE Cardinals $397,000
16 Avion Black WR Bills $460,000
17 Danny Wuerffel QB Bears $556,000
18 Brian Allen LB Rams $452,000
19 Johnny Huggins TE Cowboys $300,000

2002 draft http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...teams/hou.html

1 1 David Carr QB Fresno St.
2 33 Jabar Gaffney WR Florida
2 50 Chester Pitts OG San Diego St.
3 66 Fred Weary C Tennessee
3 83 Charles Hill DT Maryland
4 99 Jonathan Wells HB Ohio St.
5 136 Jarrod Baxter FB New Mexico
5 153 Ramone Walker S Pittsburgh
6 173 Howard Faggins CB Kansas St.
6 190 Howard Green DT LSU
7 229 Greg White DE Minnesota
7 261 Ahmad Miller DT UNLV

2003 draft http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ms/texans.html

1 3(3) Andre Johnson* WR Miami (FL)
2 9(41) Bennie Joppru TE Michigan
3 3(67) Antwan Peek OLB Cincinnati
3 11(75) Seth Wand OT NW Missouri St.
3 24(88) Dave Ragone QB Louisville
4 4(101) Domanick Davis HB LSU
6 19(192) Drew Henson* QB Michigan
6 41(214) Keith Wright DE Missouri
7 3(217) Curry Burns S Louisville
7 19(233) Chance Pearce C Texas A&M

2004 draft http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ms/texans.html

1 10(10) Dunta Robinson CB South Carolina
1 27(27) Jason Babin DE W. Michigan
4 26(122) Glenn Earl S Notre Dame
6 5(170) Vontez Duff CB Notre Dame
6 10(175) Jammal Lord RB Nebraska
6 35(200) Charlie Anderson DE Ole Miss
7 9(210) Raheem Orr DE Rutgers
7 10(211) Sloan Thomas WR Texas
7 47(248) B.J. Symons QB Texas Tech

2005 draft http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ms/texans.html

1 16(16) Travis Johnson DT Florida St.
3 9(73) Vernand Morency HB Oklahoma St.
4 13(114) Jerome Mathis WR Hampton
5 15(151) Drew Hodgdon C Arizona St.
6 14(188) C.C. Brown S La. Lafayette
7 13(227) Kenneth Pettway OLB Grambling

And lest we forget the supp drafts

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/HOU/5753006

(milford brown)

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/6452668

(tony hollings)

To be compared against something a bit more current:

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster.php

And despite all my effort in providing that for you I think its a bit counter productive to be critical of the team if they draft well and spend less on free agents...what you should be gathering from that statement is affordable-productive-youth is worth more then overpaid-retread players schooled in someone else’s pro offense or defense. of course talent is talent and good players become available from time to time in the free agent market ,but at what price? you don’t stretch the budget to have a competitive team----NOT IN THE BUILDING PROCESS. you keep the team cap manageable until they’re ready for a real run at the playoffs and then seek that extra 2-3 players on the free agent market.
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Old 09-10-2005   #35
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I'm out of time but here are a couple points I'll catch up on later-

(1) draft well---we don't know that yet
(2) Belechik and Capers alike???--have some good stuff for this one
(3) for example--Jags were in the playoffs for something like 3 or 4
of Coughlin's 6years and had a winning record when he left

...back later
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Old 09-10-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
I'm out of time but here are a couple points I'll catch up on later-

(1) draft well---we don't know that yet
(2) Belechik and Capers alike???--have some good stuff for this one
(3) for example--Jags were in the playoffs for something like 3 or 4
of Coughlin's 6years and had a winning record when he left


...back later
Even though they had a winning team for 3-4 years they built it all wrong. You don't build your winning team if it is going to fall apart(Because of Poor Cap Mngt) and lead to 1/2 a decade of losing seasons.
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Old 09-10-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
(1) draft well---we don't know that yet
no we dont. the basis for my comments were that was our building philosophy contrary to both the jags and the panthers. as such, the building process of the texans should be held in diffrent regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
(3) for example--Jags were in the playoffs for something like 3 or 4 of Coughlin's 6years and had a winning record when he left

the jags havent had a sniff of the playoffs since 1999. their playoff run yeilded an astonishing .500 record. they were fortunate not only to begin with more beniffits then the texans had but also to start at the begining of the free agency era when teams had yet to learn how to hold onto their players. their cap was handled so horrifically infact that in the 2002 expansion draft they still had to look to a division rival to help them alleviate their troubles. (thank you for walker and payne).

10 years

2 head coachs

no superbowl rings

do you think they made all the right decisions?

you can bash the texans as often as you like about a lack of free agency signings...but all you have to do is look at the redskins to know success is more then ink on paper.
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Old 09-10-2005   #38
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"Even though they had a winning team for 3-4 years they built it all wrong. You don't build your winning team if it is going to fall apart(Because of Poor Cap Mngt) and lead to 1/2 a decade of losing seasons"

How many teams have won for 10 years straight?
How many teams have won, then lost, then retooled in the past decade?

...include a few more decades...and how many teams had to get use to the
cap issue?
...finally, I'm so glad that--according to you--once we start winning
(whenever that will be), we will continue to win forever and ever!
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Old 09-11-2005   #39
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Hey if you have the blueprint to bring an expansion team in the Superbowl with the 1st few year let us all know. And please do go mortgaging your future like most teams have done.
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Old 09-11-2005   #40
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10 years

2 head coachs

no superbowl rings
I'm afraid that may be us in about 6 yrs.
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