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Old 09-10-2005   #1
run-david-run
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Recently Dom Capers said this year should yield the most fruit from a defensive standpoint becasue we finnally have the right personel to run a 3-4 defense.

Now this beges the question as to why in God's name did we run this defense without the correct personel to sustain it? I can undesrstand implementing it in so the players gain familirity with it, such as in third and long or other passing situation, but having the 4-3 as our base? :brickwall

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the 3-4 and think it should work well now that we have the right personel. But if the coach himself admits he can't run it effectivley the first two years, then why not at least experimnet with the 4-3 to see if it can be effective? This seems like another example of a coach trying to force a team to adapt to his system, instead of a a coach adapting to the talent he has.....

For possible results of this occurence see 2003 Lakers and Phil Jackson's triangle offense...
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Old 09-10-2005   #2
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Perhaps because from a coach standpoint the first thing you want your players to do is to buy into your system. Usually if you don't do that, you don't have success. If he goes and installs another defense, it is telling the rest of your team that even you as the coach and designer of this defense, don't believe your system can work.
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Old 09-10-2005   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by run-david-run
Recently Dom Capers said this year should yield the most fruit from a defensive standpoint becasue we finnally have the right personel to run a 3-4 defense.

Now this beges the question as to why in God's name did we run this defense without the correct personel to sustain it? I can undesrstand implementing it in so the players gain familirity with it, such as in third and long or other passing situation, but having the 4-3 as our base? :brickwall

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the 3-4 and think it should work well now that we have the right personel. But if the coach himself admits he can't run it effectivley the first two years, then why not at least experimnet with the 4-3 to see if it can be effective? This seems like another example of a coach trying to force a team to adapt to his system, instead of a a coach adapting to the talent he has.....

For possible results of this occurence see 2003 Lakers and Phil Jackson's triangle offense...
LOL if you think we had the personel to run a 4-3 you are crazy. It takes time to build talent and depth. You only get so much money and so many draft picks.

Be realistic. WE HAVE BEEN A FREAKING EXPANSION TEAM!!!!!!!!!
I think too many of our fans lose track of that.

Being an expansion team will affect you for about 1 career cycle. Roughly 8-12 years. After that, no excuses, because you should be stocked with your past draft picks and chosen talent.


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Old 09-10-2005   #4
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Default No Way

"Being an expansion team will affect you for about 1 career cycle. Roughly 8-12 years. After that, no excuses, because you should be stocked with your past draft picks and chosen talent"

...don't tell this to any NFL Owner!!!...you're kidding, right?...I know,
related/friend of Capers, huh?
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Old 09-10-2005   #5
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Dont know about the 8-12 yr thing, but being an expansion team as an explanation is right on. I doubt the Texans had the debth in personel to run any defense at a playoff level their 1st three yrs. Funny how if a coach says things are better now than ever that a fan would say "why was it bad before". especially an expansion teams fan.
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Old 09-10-2005   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
LOL if you think we had the personel to run a 4-3 you are crazy. It takes time to build talent and depth. You only get so much money and so many draft picks.

Be realistic. WE HAVE BEEN A FREAKING EXPANSION TEAM!!!!!!!!!
I think too many of our fans lose track of that.

Being an expansion team will affect you for about 1 career cycle. Roughly 8-12 years. After that, no excuses, because you should be stocked with your past draft picks and chosen talent.


Seeing as almoast every college and pro team runs a 4-3, players that sit into that scheme would be way easier to find. I am not saying we have the personel for a 4-3, but if we planned on using it we obviously would have had a wide range of players to go after that would fot our system.
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Old 09-10-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by run-david-run
Seeing as almoast every college and pro team runs a 4-3, players that sit into that scheme would be way easier to find.
Not really, some college DE's are like 250 pounds. They would get pushed around in the NFL. Peek is an example. He is a tweener. When he came out, he was too small to play DE every down. The 3-4 puts him on the outside and allows him to become a every down player. A lot of teams are making the transition to the 3-4 because it is easier to find players for it.
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Old 09-10-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
"Being an expansion team will affect you for about 1 career cycle. Roughly 8-12 years. After that, no excuses, because you should be stocked with your past draft picks and chosen talent"

...don't tell this to any NFL Owner!!!...you're kidding, right?...I know,
related/friend of Capers, huh?
My friends call be Justin Capers but that is beside the point. LOL

I am not saying we shouldn't be good but the reality is that the effect of being an expansion team and starting from scratch usually last about 8-12 years (obviously in the later years the effect is much much much less). You probably don't want to hear this.
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Old 09-10-2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
My friends call be Justin Capers but that is beside the point. LOL

I am not saying we shouldn't be good but the reality is that the effect of being an expansion team and starting from scratch usually last about 8-12 years (obviously in the later years the effect is much much much less). You probably don't want to hear this.
...please humor me, what are you basing this on?...Browns are the
only modern era expansion team that is not doing that great and even
they won and went to the playoffs in their 4th year
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Old 09-10-2005   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
...please humor me, what are you basing this on?...Browns are the
only modern era expansion team that is not doing that great and even
they won and went to the playoffs in their 4th year
Substained success. No expansion team has ever achieved it.

Key factors:
-Players don't want to play for expansion teams as much as the want to play for historic franchises ie Greenbay, Pittsburgh. No history, smaller fan base, less press coverage etc.

-Drafting and developing talent is one of the cheapest ways to win. As an expansion team your "tree" does not begin to show "fruit" for several years. So the only way to get good players is to buy them. Ala the Panters and Jags. Then you get killed by the salary cap and enjoy a half decade of losing like the Jags did. A balance of Free Agents and lots of in-house developed talent is required for your team to be successful.

PS the Jags and Panthers are past the Expansion cycle. Browns managment was indecisive and didn't stick to their plan so they have started over a several occasions.

I had lunch with Charley Casserly in 2001 and he was explaining all of this in great detail. (No, I am not a big shot. I was one of several people at this lunch. I don't know him personally) It was actually kind of funny, He said in the first year your are going to say.."Wow this stadium is nice.".....In the second year you are going to say..."Boy am I a glad we have a team again.".....In the third year you are going to say..."Wow look at those cheerleader and boy this stadium is awesome.".......the fourth year you are going to say..."lets play some FOOTBALL!!!" (Keep in mind this was back in 2001)
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Old 09-10-2005   #11
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"PS the Jags and Panthers are past the Expansion cycle. Browns managment was indecisive and didn't stick to their plan so they have started over a several occasions."

Your post makes no sense since the Jags and Panthers were winners
early in your cycle and still are, though Panthers lost last year despite
being in the SB yr before and are projected to win in'05

Last edited by tsip; 09-10-2005 at 02:20 PM. Reason: change
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Old 09-10-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
Being an expansion team will affect you for about 1 career cycle. Roughly 8-12 years. After that, no excuses, because you should be stocked with your past draft picks and chosen talent.

Here we go. 8-12 years now. Preparing the excuses early this year.
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Old 09-10-2005   #13
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Too, no coach in the modern era of expansion has lasted 8-12 yrs,
which means everything starts over with the new head coach--sorry,
but I'm of the opinion sooner than later
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Old 09-10-2005   #14
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Quote:
no coach in the modern era of expansion has lasted 8-12 yrs
Coach Cowers of the Steelers, to name one off the top of my head, might not agree with you, tsip.

Quote:
the fourth year you are going to say..."lets play some FOOTBALL!!!"
that I can agree with. Not sure where the 8-12 years analogy fits in with that idea though. I would say 4-6 to get your talent level and backup players in place to at least be a contender on the field with any other football team.

that is where the Texans are today, IMHO, legit contenders with the talent level equal to most other teams in the NFL, overall. It is also where the plan has been from the beginning to build the Texans to. Including building them to be a 3-4 Defense. In retrospect, that might have been a decision that was ahead of it's time, since in 2002 there were only about 3 teams that used the 3-4 Defense. And recently there have been a few more teams that have converted over to it, most recently the Cowboys this year.

It still takes time to draft and develop the team, no matter what D you play. since the Cowboys are converting to a 3-4 this year, lets look at them and see how well that works out, or how many years it takes to actually get the players and personnel to do it.

I personally am glad we decided to go with a 3-4, and we decided that in 2002. I think this year our D will be a top D in the league and we finally have all the pieces in place.
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Old 09-10-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
Too, no coach in the modern era of expansion has lasted 8-12 yrs...
If you are talking about a coach not lasting for 8-12 seasons with an expansion team, that is true. But in this era, it has happened: Mike Shanahan and, as thegr8fan said, Bill Cowher.
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Old 09-10-2005   #16
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and Jeff Fisher don't forget
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Old 09-10-2005   #17
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I believe it was better to run the 3-4 even though we didn't have the personel to run it as effectively as we could the first 3 years. This is how i see it. Who do we have on our team that started out in the 3-4? Payne, Walker, Wong, and Coleman. The first 3 I mentioned are better off now after playing 3 years in the 3-4 , than if they would have been if we played the 4-3 for the first 3 years. We'd be starting a new defense this year with everybody learning new positions. IMO it's better to let them learn the first few years in the 3-4 than to change the defensive scheme after 2-3 years.
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Old 09-10-2005   #18
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"Coach Cowers of the Steelers"

Sorry, we were talking about expansion teams so Cowher,Fisher, and
Shanahan don't qualify
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Old 09-10-2005   #19
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Originally Posted by atxcoolguy
I believe it was better to run the 3-4 even though we didn't have the personel to run it as effectively as we could the first 3 years. This is how i see it. Who do we have on our team that started out in the 3-4? Payne, Walker, Wong, and Coleman. The first 3 I mentioned are better off now after playing 3 years in the 3-4 , than if they would have been if we played the 4-3 for the first 3 years. We'd be starting a new defense this year with everybody learning new positions. IMO it's better to let them learn the first few years in the 3-4 than to change the defensive scheme after 2-3 years.
Interesting, because Belechik coaches for this year and winning this
year and puts a defense/offense on the field thats suited for the players
he has right now as oppose to players he may have next year or the
year after or 8-12 yrs down the road
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Old 09-10-2005   #20
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Lbc brings up good points though i dont agree with his timetable...i'd immagine we wont see the last lingering effects of being an expansion team till year 7 or so...

we've focused on upgrading starters ,but as evidenced by the preseason every year our 2nd teamers arent on par with the rest of the league. sure at particular positions we do ok ,but as a whole our depth is not there.

- we have had a need to develop our own talent via the draft for 2 reasons :

a) as Lbc mentioned we have no history and there is a natural stigma about playing for an expansion team. good players in the free agent market want a ring...we cant promise that when we cant even produce a .500 season.

b) free agent impact on the cap. every year a standard contract escalates much like the nfl draft slotting. what was reasonable money last year is no longer sufficient. we didnt have the luxury of haveing key players signed at various times of their contracts. for the most part we had to start from square 1 (excluding expansion draft players who were actually overpaid anyway). starting into year 4 this is finally starting to balance out a little ,but it was a serious consideration early on. you dont have to look much farther then the panthers and the jags to see what im getting at. i think casserly has managed this aspect well.

i do think the decision to go with a 3-4 defense was ahead of its time. not only was it something unique (well almost unique) for the team at the time ,but more importantly it gave us an avenue to aquire late round talent on defense. only a couple years ago 3-4 types (tweeners and the linemen) routinely slipped a bit in the draft. considering we focused on offense mostly in our 1st drafts we still had a chance to get that late round jewel because of the skill sets we required on defense.

im also a firm believer that a personel mistake hurts far more as an expansion team. when this team was being made the ol was allegedly the strength of our team...bosseli, mckinney, young...for various reasons none of them have ever panned out...year 4...guess what we're still lacking...
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