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Old 09-05-2005   #21
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Originally Posted by powda
i dont agree with the assertion this is a west coast offense. our running game sets up our passing game...not vice versa. (as evidenced by the choice of linemen we draft and pursue.) we have mostly better then average run blockers and average to poor pass blockers (with the exclusion of mckinney who is a sad run and pass blocker).
exactly! but that is the direction given the assests the Texans have that fit the personel best. if Palmer can't pull it out then we need to find someone who can. in my opinion its the coaches who have to adjust or adapt to the players not vice versa. and if your worried about the defense don't, Cappers is a very good defensive coach and he will shut down oppposing defenses despite what we saw in the pre-season. the offense is what has bothered most of us, and I am not one to blame Carr, to me the chemistry is not there between the players & the playbook, I think they have a better idea what to run, as a matter of fact why not let Carr make the calls if he needs help then he could call up for suggestions. the Texans need a OC on the same page as the real OC the QB, a west coast style could be effective, but no as yet they do not run it :brickwall
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Old 09-05-2005   #22
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Originally Posted by powda
im starting to like the idea more and more of an early bye-week. it gives us a bit more time to get our act together.

I have said a couple of times that I think the early bye will be to our bennifit this year. Get us on track after what I suspect will be two losses to start the season. I still think we will wind up 9-7 and just miss the playoffs.
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Old 09-05-2005   #23
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I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball. He throws on a flat line and doesn't get much air under the ball. A good deep ball has a good arc and lets the WR run under the ball and adjust while in the air. Carr throws a flat lazer type throw that has little margin for error. I think Palmer lets Carr do as much as he is capable. If he was capable of more he would be able to do more.
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Old 09-05-2005   #24
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Originally Posted by Vinny
I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball.
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.
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Old 09-05-2005   #25
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Originally Posted by Lucky
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.

But is he taking into account passes that get to the receiver 10 yards downfield and then the receiver runs the extra 10-20-30 etc? That's far different than a ball traveling 30 yards in the air and landing in the receivers hands.
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Old 09-05-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by ledzeppelin269
But is he taking into account passes that get to the receiver 10 yards downfield and then the receiver runs the extra 10-20-30 etc? That's far different than a ball traveling 30 yards in the air and landing in the receivers hands.
Yes, it is passes traveling over 20 yards in the air. Peyton Manning is 2nd at 45.7%.
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Old 09-05-2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Yes, it is passes traveling over 20 yards in the air. Peyton Manning is 2nd at 45.7%.
Works for me.
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Old 09-05-2005   #28
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Originally Posted by Lucky
According to K.C. Joyner, Carr was tops in completion % (46.8) of deep passes (20+ yards). It may not look pretty to you, but it gets there.
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.

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The second problem for Carr is taht he wasn't able to pass deep very often. Carr only passed deep 13.7% of the time, ranking him tied for the 22nd lowest percentage in this metric.

long developing deep routes
Corner 1 1 28 0
Post 8 1 25 0
DMGo 6 1 69 0
Totals 15 3 122
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Old 09-06-2005   #29
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he was not like that at all in college, he threw deep many times.
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Old 09-06-2005   #30
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.

Deep corner routes take too long to develop. He was probably on his back anytime he attempted to make that pass. The KC Joyner book actually makes the point that he had almost no success on double-move routes such as that one... One can certainly infer that it was a result of pass protection. I think Trent Green was the best on those routes last year.

Also Carr went deep over 40 times. 15 is the "long developing routes"... He was, I believe, 16 of 28 on Fly routes, Fades, Posts, etc...
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Old 09-06-2005   #31
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I seem to remember an article in the Chronicle from months ago that talked about a meeting that Carr had with Dom and McNair. In the meeting he basically said that if he takes another pounding this season he is gone.

I don't blame the guy.

That is why they changed the offense. They rewrote the whole thing. Sure hope it works. :brickwall
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Old 09-06-2005   #32
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Yeah but you fail to tell us that Carr didn't go deep very often (15 times is less than one per game) so that stat would likely not hold up if he went deep like most NFL QB's do. Heck, Carr only threw ONE deep corner route all year. Carr just doesn't do well if it isn't a hitch, curl, or slant. He doesn't challenge the middle of the field much or find that guy much either.
Actually, Carr threw 62 "deep" passes last season, which was 22nd in the league. Carr only threw one deep corner route, but how many were called? Would you call more?

You're right in that Carr was accurate with the short pass last season, 5th in the league at 74.4%. It's ironic that this is where Carr's problems have been this postseason. My observation is that Carr wouldn't have thrown many of these passes last season because the coverage was too tight. And by hanging on to the ball, more sacks would have occured.

I can understand why the Texans thought the short passing game was the way to go (74.4% and fewer sacks). It's just not working out because defenses are sitting on the short stuff. Until the line can allow Carr and the WRs to work downfield, this passing offense will remain mediocre.
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Old 09-06-2005   #33
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Vinny is just pointing out the numbers reflecting the Texans offensive strengths & weaknesses with Carr @ QB. even though Palmer is not a west coast kind of guy he knows he must address these trends by modifying and adjusting the offensive scheme. getting the TE, RB 2nd /3rd WR's involved will eventually open up lanes for Andre Johnson, because as it stands he has become the main focus of teams defensive game planning, every game I see there are at least two if not three or four DB's around AJ. I think we all can agree the TE has been under utilized in the offense, it will be critical for Murphy to step up as they actually run an offense that involves the TE. Domanick will get his throws if not more, hopefully Morency can catch the ball out of the backfield as well but I don't know because as of yet I haven't seen it. out of the receivers Gaffney, Bradford, Armstrong & Mathis someone needs to step up and become #2 (should be Gaffney) Mathis & Bradford should stretch the D & solidify the #3
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Old 09-06-2005   #34
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Originally Posted by Vinny
I can't believe everyone thinks Carr has a great deep ball. He throws on a flat line and doesn't get much air under the ball. A good deep ball has a good arc and lets the WR run under the ball and adjust while in the air. Carr throws a flat lazer type throw that has little margin for error. I think Palmer lets Carr do as much as he is capable. If he was capable of more he would be able to do more.
I concur. We must be watching the same games from the same angle in the stands.
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Old 09-06-2005   #35
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Originally Posted by Lucky
Actually, Carr threw 62 "deep" passes last season, which was 22nd in the league. Carr only threw one deep corner route, but how many were called? Would you call more?
I don't think Carr challenges the mid to deep field enough. He will throw to the sidelines most of the time because he isn't comfortable throwing into coverage.

And yes, I agree protection is to blame for some of it...but not all of it like most here feel.
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Originally Posted by Lucky
You're right in that Carr was accurate with the short pass last season, 5th in the league at 74.4%. It's ironic that this is where Carr's problems have been this postseason.
I hope he is accurate on his short pass...the bulk of the throws all go to Dom Davis in the flat - uncovered. He has tried to throw to his WR2's and TE's instead of the RB in this preseason...that's where he has gotten into trouble, and that's where I'm worried most about his game. Just watch the exibition games and see if he looks anyone off. He stares guys down and lets the S or the CB get a jump on the ball in most of his picks. Defenses know he doesn't look off defenders....I do, so I know they do.
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Old 09-06-2005   #36
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Originally Posted by Vinny
And yes, I agree protection is to blame for some of it...
Well, the Texans redesigned the passing game because of the lack of protection. That's all I really need to know about what they thought of it.

Here are some of the short passing game numbers from '04:

DD - 68 rec. of 84 targets - 81%
AJ - 54 rec. of 69 targets - 78%
Gaff - 26 rec. of 36 targets - 72%
Corey - 16 rec. of 27 targets - 59%

If I could give one bit of advice to Carr & Palmer, it's this: Stop throwing short to Bradford!
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Old 09-06-2005   #37
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Originally Posted by Lucky
If I could give one bit of advice to Carr & Palmer, it's this: Stop throwing short to Bradford!
amen to that
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Old 09-06-2005   #38
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One thing I can say with certainty .... The Texans offense cant play any worse than they have the past two pre-season games :brickwall
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Old 09-07-2005   #39
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One thing I can say with certainty .... The Texans offense cant play any worse than they have the past two pre-season games :brickwall
Be careful you might get what you think is the impossible. I keep saying our offense is going to be predicated on special team's play. I think we will look no differently than last year and perhaps even more conservative than last year. Look for many 3 and outs utilizing the run with the attempt to make something happen off of special team's play. I think that will be our offensive style this year. My lingering hope is that a wide receiver like Mathis will come to the fore and ease the pressure on AJ and then we might see some passing offense. Short of that I look for a very dull and uninspired offense with many courses of boo's coming from the stands.
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Old 09-07-2005   #40
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Be careful you might get what you think is the impossible. I keep saying our offense is going to be predicated on special team's play. I think we will look no differently than last year and perhaps even more conservative than last year. Look for many 3 and outs utilizing the run with the attempt to make something happen off of special team's play. I think that will be our offensive style this year. My lingering hope is that a wide receiver like Mathis will come to the fore and ease the pressure on AJ and then we might see some passing offense. Short of that I look for a very dull and uninspired offense with many courses of boo's coming from the stands.

Lets hope that Mathis can become that #2 reciever the Texans have been lacking ... Bradford has had 3 years to show he's that guy and has failed miserably ..... If not ..... I believe you are absolutely correct . Special teams may be their best source of points ....
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