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Old 09-03-2005   #21
DomDavis
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Never he said he it did not deserve it, just has warranted it in hind sight. A solution is to cut Carr loose after this year if he does not show improvement as well let Palmer go and possibly Capers. I woudl not mind seeing Jerry Gray in here as HC.

I am sure Bob Hill is good man and sound coach.
There were only 15 quarterbacks in the entire league better than Carr last year, and that was in only his third season. So if you cut Carr lose, you're almost assuredly going to bring in someone worse than him. So, in order for the new QB to have a net gain for the offense, he'd have to improve from his previous seasons... while going to a team with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receiver and no pass-catching tight end. Mind explaining how that one's going to work?

Logic and common sense should tell you that it is very likely Carr will improve. But if he simply remains at the level he was at last year for the remainder of his career, he's still a very solid quarterback and it would be absurd to cut him loose.
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Old 09-03-2005   #22
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Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
Huh??? Are you serious or joking? He hasnt made anyone better? He made AJ a pro bowl WR. He made DD an 1800 all-purpose yard back and one of the best two tool runningbacks in the NFL, when most people didnt think he would even become a starter. There is no physical way that David can make his Oline better. He can't give them vision to read blitzes. He can't give them strength to overpower everyone. He can't give them better feet to move with. He's making everyone better that his offensive scheme ALLOWS him to make better.
No I am not joking. AJ is a freak and many on this board will tell you that watch the games that the Texans best two passing plays are to just throw it up in the air to AJ and he will go up and get it, which he does quite often. Thee other is throw it to AJ on the line and let him work the CB one on one in open space. It does not take a #1 pick at QB to do this.

I like DD as well, but what makes his statistics so appealing is that Carr looks for him on the dump off continuously and many times it is in when the defense is playing prevent defense. Carr has nothing to do with DD's ground game, in fact I would argue that we had a better QB, DD would get more yards.

But lets go to Carr. Hey David how much film have you watched on cover 2 this past year? Have you had a discussion with your OC on what plays you think that will benefit your personnel against the cover 2? Maybe he has and just cannot execute. Mmaybe this is the year David will have sack up and audible because he is fed up with the Palmer's play calling.

My point is, is that Carr is the face of this organization and is paid handsomely for it. If you are true fan who puts their money where their mouth is then you expect more. I am a PSL Owner since day one, make the trek from Austin to every home game and I bought the Sunday ticket because I do not want to miss one Texans away game sice JAX cannot sell out a game.

Once again the sky is not falling, we will go 8-8 this year and would like to see some more value out of our first pick.
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Old 09-03-2005   #23
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Originally Posted by DomDavis
There were only 15 quarterbacks in the entire league better than Carr last year, and that was in only his third season. So if you cut Carr lose, you're almost assuredly going to bring in someone worse than him. So, in order for the new QB to have a net gain for the offense, he'd have to improve from his previous seasons... while going to a team with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receiver and no pass-catching tight end. Mind explaining how that one's going to work?

Logic and common sense should tell you that it is very likely Carr will improve. But if he simply remains at the level he was at last year for the remainder of his career, he's still a very solid quarterback and it would be absurd to cut him loose.
Admittedly I do not know what the fiscal implications are of we cut him loose after 2005. Once again this is a value proposition. Not sure how you measure the QB's, hard for me to comment on that, but under the result of your measurement it is not so reassuring as that says we spent a #1 for a QB who is no better than the middle of the pack amongst his peers.

This secondary receiever talk is a little stale as he has one, it is just unfortunate that it is DD.

I want to see him get better as well, but he is not a HS QB so lets stop coddling him. He is a professional and understands the demands. I am a fan and expect return on investment, as in execution. I would have no problme if he started calling people out. But you know what, he may be scared of the back lash or he is not the leader that everyone makes him out to be.
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Old 09-03-2005   #24
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He has to dump it off because the offensive line is so damn terrible. Seriously, watch the OLine. Watch them.

Carr passed for 3500 yards with a recieving core of AJ...and then??? Gaffney isnt a strong #2. Armstrong could be good, but he is unproven. TEs are hardly ever used in the offense. Not to mention Carr had more rushing attempts and yards for any QB not named Vick or Culpepper. Imagine if he stayed in his year 1 and year 2 form, the sack numbers would have been EVEN HIGHER than his league leading sack number last year.

You can't blame Carr for having no time and bad options to throw to. Fact, most of the GREAT QBs in the league have a good TE to throw to. Manning's TEs combined for 700 yards and 11 TDs. Wiggins in Minnesota??? Another 700 yard guy. Graham in NE??? 7 TDs(not to mention another 2 from Fauria). Hell, even look at Crumpler in ATL, he makes even bad throwing QBs look great.Which brings us to Houston's TE situation last year...200 yards and 1 TD. Perhaps I'm the only one seeing this though...
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Old 09-03-2005   #25
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Not sure how you measure the QB's, hard for me to comment on that, but under the result of your measurement it is not so reassuring as that says we spent a #1 for a QB who is no better than the middle of the pack amongst his peers.
I measure my quarterbacks by the history of the NFL.

It's very reassuring to me if Carr is in the middle of the pack in just his third season, especially given the circumstances here. If he's still there in seasons four, five and six, maybe we can call him an underachiever. At this point, if anything, he's an overachiever.

There is a very different learning and development curve for quarterbacks compared to other players. Learn it.
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Old 09-03-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by DomDavis
I measure my quarterbacks by the history of the NFL.

It's very reassuring to me if Carr is in the middle of the pack in just his third season, especially given the circumstances here. If he's still there in seasons four, five and six, maybe we can call him an underachiever. At this point, if anything, he's an overachiever.

There is a very different learning and development curve for quarterbacks compared to other players. Learn it.
Just so we are on the same page. You said earlier that Carr was the 15th best QB in the league last year. I asked by waht measurement. Your answer was by the history of the NFL. I have not heard of this measurement and am willing to learn as you instructed me. Please do tell.

The only thinig I can think that your are talking about is maybe you saw this on Madden or something, because I cannot follow the logic

Thanks for asking, I am familiar with the learning curve at the QB position. I was not upset when Cass took Ragone in the draft. Cass to understands the balance between the learning curve and competition.
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Old 09-03-2005   #27
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Just so we are on the same page. You said earlier that Carr was the 15th best QB in the league last year. I asked by waht measurement. Your answer was by the history of the NFL. I have not heard of this measurement and am willing to learn as you instructed me. Please do tell.

The only thinig I can think that your are talking about is maybe you saw this on Madden or something, because I cannot follow the logic

Thanks for asking, I am familiar with the learning curve at the QB position. I was not upset when Cass took Ragone in the draft. Cass to understands the balance between the learning curve and competition.
Sorry, I didn't think that's what you meant. I didn't say he was 15th best. I said he was in the top half. I figured it would be obvious I was speaking of passer rating, since it's by far the most accurate statistical method of analyzing a quarterback. Carr was ranked 16th last year, and there are 32 teams with starting quarterbacks... do the math.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2004/regular
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Old 09-03-2005   #28
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Originally Posted by DomDavis
Sorry, I didn't think that's what you meant. I didn't say he was 15th best. I said he was in the top half. I figured it would be obvious I was speaking of passer rating, since it's by far the most accurate statistical method of analyzing a quarterback. Carr was ranked 16th last year, and there are 32 teams with starting quarterbacks... do the math.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2004/regular
Thanks for letting me know that is how you are measuring as people have different measurements and I do not like to assume.

How many of those QB's in front him were 1st rounders? I am guessing 5 out of 15? Also disconcerting to see that David was the secnd best QB from his own college.

Take it easy DD got to run to a FF draft, appreciate the dialogue and go Texans.
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Old 09-03-2005   #29
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Is he worth what hype? He's not hyped anywhere in the country aside from Houston and the Valley. He's viewed as a below average QB by a majority of NFL fandom.

I can't give away my Carr rookie cards on eBay these days.
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Old 09-03-2005   #30
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Is he worth what hype? He's not hyped anywhere in the country aside from Houston and the Valley. He's viewed as a below average QB by a majority of NFL fandom.
Really? I must have missed that survey.
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Old 09-03-2005   #31
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I have an idea! Why don't we put Wonger in as QB, fire Carr and Capers, start Hollings as RB, let Dunta play LT, I will buy the franchise and ragone can take over as the new head coach.

The new cheerleaders:

Captain- Seth Wand

2006 squad- Garry Walker, Chester Pitts, Zack Weigart (also known as Miss Feb. in the Texans new calendar), Chris Palmer and former owner Bob Mcnair
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Old 09-03-2005   #32
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I think we as fans expect perfection sometimes from our teams and of course that in unattainable. So when they fail or falter it's a big fall.

I just try to remember that David is competitive, he'll do what he needs to do to prepare for the game and correct mistakes. If he doesn't he can lose his job just as any other athlete can. And I'm positive he feels badly about his performance.

The burden on his shoulders is a big one. He'll get his game right.
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Old 09-03-2005   #33
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WildBlackbear32:

We have had above average TEs. Maybe not superstars, but they are Ok enough to deserve the ball.

Carr doesn't throw them the ball. So, it really doesn't matter who we bring into camp each year as a TE....Carr can't get his eyes off of two players: AJ and DD.

I can't even bear to watch one of our TEs come into the huddle for the next play because it's like, "Oh, I guess this is the part where the TE run blocks or sprints un-defended up the field waving his arms wildly to get Carr's attention."

So, the ball is snapped...Carr drops back, scrambles (usually) and tried to lob it to AJ and then looks for DD as the safety valve if AJ is covered. Usually what happens next is Carr is near the sideline and either runs it out of bounds (slamming the ball into the turf out of frustration, usually) or he slings it away for an incompletion--He's gotten better at throwing it away when he's ot of options, i've got to give him credit for that at least.

If the Texans really do have a new offensive passing scheme...I say they tear it down and revert back to the old way. I'm not impressed thus far. The zone blocking is working great for the running game, but the passing game is just abismal at best.

So is he worth the hype? So far he has, but a LOT of people on this board, as well as a lot of national radio personalities (ESPN) say this is very much a make or break season for him.

(This is the part where I duck and try to dodge the stones that will come raining down from up above).

Carr either gets over the hump this year, or it's the beginning of the end for him. Does it take six, seven, or eight years for him to be the QB we had all hoped he can be?

I like the guy, but the clock is ticking. It's a business. Ask Sharper and Glenn.
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Old 09-03-2005   #34
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Mark Bruener isn't close to an above average TE. He's a TE with hands of stone.

Here's what really happens. Carr either has pressure from the defensive line or scrambles for his life and doesn't have time to go through his progressions. He looks for his best receiver (Andre) to make a play, and when one simply isn't possible, he often goes to the safety valve because he doesn't have the time to go through the other options.

Is it a big season for Carr? Absolutely. He's got to continue to play well and he should slightly improve also. But let's wait to criticize him and talk about his failure until he gives us a reason to (no, the preseason is not a reason).
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Old 09-03-2005   #35
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I can't give away my Carr rookie cards on eBay these days.
So you ARE a fan!!

uhm.. were...
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Old 09-03-2005   #36
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So Murphy snagging the ball for our only TD in one of the preseason games is not good enough? That ball was on target over the defender's shoulder, and he was clutch--By the way, that ball was thrown by Banks and not Carr. The bobbled ball against Dallas was just (1) not well thrown by Carr to begin with and (2) it was a great play by the defenders who converged and knocked it loose. Breuner is worthy of a roster spot and he can catch the ball, ask the Steelers fans who came here and congratualted us for getting him on our team. Miller was a casualty of Carr not throwing the ball to our TEs. When the second teamers were out there (Banks and Murphy, etc.) the TEs were getting balls thrown to them more regularly and thus it made Miller look bad. We just gave him a big bonus/contract or something last year. "Way to go, Billy. The Texans are proud of you...oh, that was last year...sorry, you have been cut." Nice.

Carr just doesn't think about them until it's too late. If you want me to start a list of these occurences, I will. I notice it all the time. Very discouraging when it happens so consistently.

Do we have to get Gonzales or Gates before he looks to them? Nope. He does that with AJ by lobbing up prayers when there's no way out. AJ has been bailing Carr out on miracle throws, and those kind of plays can't go on forever.

Now that I think of it, maybe Gaffney was such a key player that Carr has been lost without him. Something to ponder. I just know that Gaffney has been out until recently and Carr doesn't look the same. I dunno. But I do know that Carr does NOT go to the TE enough, and if our TE has made our roster, it shouldn't matter how "elite" the TE is....Carr is not very "elite" right now and he's getting all kinds of defense from people on this board right now.

Last edited by GP; 09-03-2005 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 09-03-2005   #37
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So Murphy snagging the ball for our only TD in one of the preseason games is not good enough? That ball was difficult to ctahc, and he was clutch. The bobbled bal against Dallas was just a great play by the defenders who converged and knocked it loose. Breuner is worthy of a roster spot and he can catch the ball, ask the Stellers fans who came here and congratualted us for getting him on our team. Miller was a casualty of Carr not throwing the ball to our TEs.

Carr just doesn't think about them until it's too late. If you want me to start a list of these occurences, I will. I notice it all the time. Very discouraging when it happens so consistently.

Do we have to get Gonzales or Gates before he looks to them? Nope. He does that with AJ by lobbing up prayers when there's no way out.

Now that I think of it, maybe Gaffney was such a key player that Carr has been lost without him. Something to ponder. I just know that Gaffney has been out until recently and Carr doesn't just the same. I dunno. But I do know that Carr does NOT go to the TE enough, and if our TE has made our roster, it shouldn't matter how "elite" the TE is....Carr is not very "elite" right now and he's getting all kinds of defense from people on this board right now.
Dude ur just turning into a carr basher now and its gettin really disgusting. maybe if you went to the root of the problem, now im not saying its not carrs fault cause he has played poorly but the line hasnt given him all the time in the world to look from AJ to Bradford to Gaffney then to our TE's whom which we havent had very good pass cathing TE's since miller and he wasnt a starter. so look at all the details of why somethin isnt working right rather than puttin all the blame on one person. if i remember correctly you play as a team you win as a team and you loose as a team.
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Old 09-03-2005   #38
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Actually, Steelers fans told us Bruener was an excellent blocking tight end with questionable hands. Try again on that one.

You're exactly right, though. It doesn't matter if we have Antonio Gates. Doesn't matter if we have Torry Holt to pair with Andre. It all comes back to the offensive line. You have to have time to go through progressions and to look for secondary targets, and Carr rarely has it. If you'd like me to make a list of these occurences, I'd be willing to as well.

Regarding the two examples you cited, two problems. One, it's the preseason, so it's all essentially meaningless. Second, both of those instances were after the opposition had begun putting in it's second-string players, giving Carr & Banks more time to throw and thus go through progressions.
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Old 09-03-2005   #39
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So you ARE a fan!!

uhm.. were...
I've always been a fan.

Look people... get it thru your heads... just because you don't agree with everything the organization or it's players do, it does not make you less of a fan.
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Old 09-03-2005   #40
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Carr, right now, deserves a bashing. Sorry if it's that way.

Right now, as I type this, I look up on top of my computer stand where I see two McFarlane sports figurines: David Carr and Yao Ming. I am big Carr fan, Ming fan, Rockets fan, Texans fan, and Astros fan. All the Houston pro teams and I'm not even FROM Houston.

I hate having to say what I say about Carr. But three-plus years of this stuff is getting me bummed out. You can't deny what I say...you just comment that I'm saying it. And because I'm saying it, I'm some sort of freak or something?

Gosh. Be open to the fact that just because his name is David Carr does not mean that he ain't stinking up the joint right now. And in the past, yes he has come back and turned the light switch on and made a few good games after bad games. I just want to see him have more consistency and have more good games than bad games.

The o line is not perfect, but neither is Carr. And this board just SMASHES the o line and begs everybody off of Carr's case. All the time. It's wearing me out, and I've had enough. And that's why I am so loud right now. Sorry if it's abrasive to you or to others. Again: I hate doing it, but it's the doggone truth right now.
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