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Old 09-03-2005   #1
jmlockett
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Default Is Carr Worth The Hype

It Is Really Sad When The Third String Quarterback Can Get Things Done When Our Multi Million Dollar Qbs Can't Find Their Own Butt With Both Hands Placed On It For Them. I Love Our Team But Come On Guys Why Get Paid All This Money And Not Even Produce A Decent Game. At This Point I Say To Let Ragone Start And Carr Back-up And Banks 3rd.
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Old 09-03-2005   #2
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It is really sad when people try to act like the preseason has any relevance whatsoever.
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Old 09-03-2005   #3
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"any relevance whatsoever"


...so why even bother?...let's go straight to the 'real' stuff
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Old 09-03-2005   #4
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No he is not. Great arm strength, suspect accuracy (please keep the stats to yourself as I am tired of his second look always being to Davis) and horrible decision making.

Right now there is not much separation between he and Ragone other than a fat contract.

This is his make or break year as far as I am concerned. If he does not show improvemtn then he and at Palmer need to go.

After four years this team is still searching for an identity, which is usually defined through a leader. I hope someone on the defense steps up, because it ain't gonna happen on the offensive side.
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Old 09-03-2005   #5
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You're tired of his second look being to Davis? Then tell the Texans to get an offensive line so he has time to go through his progressions.

Quarterbacks don't even begin to peak until their fifth or sixth seasons. They usually aren't even decent until their third season. He had an 83.5 rating last year, good enough to be in the top half of the league, all while playing with arguably the worst offensive line in the game, no legitimate secondary receiver and a tight end (usually) with no receiving skills.

Carr's improved every season he's been in the league. He improved substantially from '03 to '04. He's ahead of most reasonable expectations of him. If you think Ragone could come in and be one of the top half of NFL starting quarterbacks with this OL and the receivers after Andre, you're beyond delusional.

Carr's fine, and he's only getting better.
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Old 09-03-2005   #6
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I respect your knowledge of the game and do agree that on the average, QB's find their groove in year 5. However, this debate is a little more granualar when it comes to Carr as we spent a #1 pick on him. Our front office or anyone else's front office who takes a QB at #1 expects immediate return on investment. This has not happened, are there factors that have not helped him prgress accordingly? Yes, we have spoke about them ad nauseum. However, I do not see the level of improvement that you would expect from a #1.

I like Carr from a character standpoint, I just do not like the return we have gotten from him to date on the field. I am still bitter about the 2002 draft as my fellow PSL owner and I were watching it, I wanted Peppers and Portis. We passed on both. Oh well. I love the Texans my man, just think we can do better with the amount of dollars we are spending.
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Old 09-03-2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DomDavis
It is really sad when people try to act like the preseason has any relevance whatsoever.
you are right--new passing attack depends on coordination between the
qb and receiver--don't need the preseason to get that timing down when we have a 16 game regular season to do it--plus, by the time we get to the
5th year of the 5yr plan and were still tinkering, heck, we'll just add a few
more years to the process---kinda like the t-shirt that says 'how can I
be out of money when I've still got blank checks?'...We won't be out of time,
we'll still have excuses!!!!!!!
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Old 09-03-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
I respect your knowledge of the game and do agree that on the average, QB's find their groove in year 5. However, this debate is a little more granualar when it comes to Carr as we spent a #1 pick on him. Our front office or anyone else's front office who takes a QB at #1 expects immediate return on investment. This has not happened, are there factors that have not helped him prgress accordingly? Yes, we have spoke about them ad nauseum. However, I do not see the level of improvement that you would expect from a #1.

I like Carr from a character standpoint, I just do not like the return we have gotten from him to date on the field. I am still bitter about the 2002 draft as my fellow PSL owner and I were watching it, I wanted Peppers and Portis. We passed on both. Oh well. I love the Texans my man, just think we can do better with the amount of dollars we are spending.
You don't build an expansion team around a defensive end. Not to mention, why would you want Portis? He was taken #51. He was projected as a 3rd rounder. Are you suggesting at the time that the Texans take a guy as a projected 3rd rounder with the #1 overall pick? I know these are only your "wants" but it sorta seems that your "wants" are based on performance since the draft, not projections before the draft.

This then goes to the Joey and Carr debates as there was no other player you could realistically build around from that draft. Had Joey been sacked as many times as Carr has been in his career, he probably would have cried and retired to persue his piano career.
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Old 09-03-2005   #9
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No my wants are not based on de facto performance. It is on record (not published of course) that I wanted Peppers and Portis before the draft, you can come see me at any home game and ask my buddy who has seats next to me. I could care less about projections, look waht happened with Carr and Harrington- the book is still out.

I do not think it was a reach to pick Peppers at the #1 (rumoured character issues aside) when your Head coach is known as a defensive whiz. The last four Super Bowl Champions are know for defense, so I am not quite clear why you it would be a reach to build your team around a DE.
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Old 09-03-2005   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
You don't build an expansion team around a defensive end.
You build great teams around great players. Peppers is a great player. I would have had zero problem starting the franchise with Peppers, but there wasn't a veteran QB the team was comfortable with, so we pulled the trigger on a big armed QB. If Carr never becomes a great player the first pick was a mistake. If he does, it won't be....but 4 years in it looks like Peppers is the stronger stock of the two investments.
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Old 09-03-2005   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
You build great teams around great players. Peppers is a great player. I would have had zero problem starting the franchise with Peppers, but there wasn't a veteran QB the team was comfortable with, so we pulled the trigger on a big armed QB. If Carr never becomes a great player the first pick was a mistake. If he does, it won't be....but 4 years in it looks like Peppers is the stronger stock of the two investments.
No doubt you build around great players, but the "money" thing to do when you are an expansion franchise and two of the top 5 projected picks are QBs is to take one. QB is certainly a more "face" position than DE. It's far tougher to get butts in seats saying, "Come watch Julius sack the QB!" than it is saying, "Come watch David throw the deep bomb!(if the offense would allow him to....buttttt thats another story).No expansion team comes in the league expecting to win the Super Bowl, so taking the QB who would take his bumps for a few years is way better from a marketing and overall team strategy standpoint.

I seriously wouldnt know Bertrand Berry from Brent Berry if Bertrand Berry introduced himself to me wearing a shirt saying, "Hi, I'm Bertrand Berry" but he was 2nd in the league in sacks last year for Arizona.However, I could tell you the top 10 QBs in the league in touchdowns in order and i'm willing to bet that most people could too.
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Old 09-03-2005   #12
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I understand your point and that's all fine if he plays up to his pick and his contract status. We are still waiting for that, while Peppers is arguably the best lineman in the NFL on a team most think will challenge for the Super Bowl. Hind sight is 20/20 but I don't like picking via formulas (ie take a qb because of some scripted formula tells you to take a qb).
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Old 09-03-2005   #13
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Default leadership in question?

I HAVE FOLLOWED THIS TEAM FROM DAY ONE AND PROBABLY AS YOU CAN TELL I AM PRETTY DISSAPOINTED FROM THE WAY THINGS LOOK. IN READING YOUR POSTS ALL OF YOU MAKE GOOD SENSE. HOWEVER THE STANDPOINT I AM COMING FROM IS THAT IS CARR A LEADER OR A FOLLOWER IN LEADERS SHOES. IN WATCHING BANKS PLAY HIS GAME SEEMED OFF BUT THE TEAM RESPONDED BETTER TO HIM AS A WHOLE, THINGS CLICKED BETTER. RAGONE CAME IN WITH A CONFINDENCE BUILDING EURO FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP WIN. THE TEAM NOT ONLY CLICKED BUT THEY PLAYED WITH CONFINDENCE. i HAVE MET CARR A COUPLE OF TIMES AND I AGREE HE IS GREAT MAN, HIS VALUES AND HIS BELIEFS AND HIS DESIRE TO WIN. I QUESTION HIS ABILITY TO INSTILL THESE THINGS INTO HIS LEADERSHIP.
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Old 09-03-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I understand your point and that's all fine if he plays up to his pick and his contract status. We are still waiting for that, while Peppers is arguably the best lineman in the NFL on a team most think will challenge for the Super Bowl. Hind site is 20/20 but I don't like picking via formulas (ie take a qb because of some scripted formula tells you to take a qb).
I love Peppers just as much as the next guy. In fact despite Carr being my favorite player in that draft, I still liked Peppers and THOUGHT he would be the better player.However, there is no doubt in my mind that he also benefitted from being inserted into an established team who even though they were bad, the year before Peppers they spend their top two picks on defensive players, Dan Morgan and Kris Jenkins. Guys who play the heart of the entire defense in MLB and the heart of the DLine in DT. You are then putting Peppers on a line with two high 2nd round picks(Jenkins and Rucker), you are gonna have greatness.
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Old 09-03-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBlackBear32
I love Peppers just as much as the next guy. In fact despite Carr being my favorite player in that draft, I still liked Peppers and THOUGHT he would be the better player.However, there is no doubt in my mind that he also benefitted from being inserted into an established team who even though they were bad, the year before Peppers they spend their top two picks on defensive players, Dan Morgan and Kris Jenkins. Guys who play the heart of the entire defense in MLB and the heart of the DLine in DT. You are then putting Peppers on a line with two high 2nd round picks(Jenkins and Rucker), you are gonna have greatness.
The intangbile fact is that Carr has not made anyone around him better, as in Carr is such a great talent or a great leader that everyone's game is elevated. Peppers reeks of this type of residual value.
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Old 09-03-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsip
you are right--new passing attack depends on coordination between the
qb and receiver--don't need the preseason to get that timing down when we have a 16 game regular season to do it--plus, by the time we get to the
5th year of the 5yr plan and were still tinkering, heck, we'll just add a few
more years to the process---kinda like the t-shirt that says 'how can I
be out of money when I've still got blank checks?'...We won't be out of time,
we'll still have excuses!!!!!!!
That's what practice is for. I'd rather Carr try to get his timing down in practice than to go all-out in preseason games and give defensive coordinators in the first month even more to prepare for.

There are excuses, and there is common sense. Carr had a very good season last year. He's done nothing to justify any concern. The Steelers were 15-1 last year, but Ben Roethlisberger had a QB rating of 32 in the preseason... do you really think they're worried? Answer: no.

few other points - not improving enough to justify a #1 pick? Umm, with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receivers and no pass-catching tight end all in only his third season, what rating did you expect him to put up? Give me a number... not something vague.

As far as Peppers being better right now - well duh. Everyone in the world, including the Texans, knew and expected Peppers to be better than Carr in the first three years. One's a DE and the other a QB. That's common sense. The investment was made for seasons four, five, six and so on, not the first three seasons with an expansion team.

And the leadership argument? hahaha. this thread has reached a new low. How do you know why certain players improve or decline? Maybe they did it with their own work ethic in the offseason. Maybe they improve or decline based on the offensive and defensive lines. Unless you're in the lockerroom, it's beyond foolish to make claims that "so and so has not made anyone better."

Now we're talking about Ragone? you guys are beyond hysterical. Aside from the fact that the game has zero meaning, Carr was going up against the best pass defense in the NFL last year... Ragone was going up against a bunch of third and fourth string scrubs. That might have just a bit to do with "how the players responded"...
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Old 09-03-2005   #17
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the question is really did Carr deserve to be the 1st player selected in the 2002 inaugural draft of the Texans?

simple answear, yes he did

what I have noticed however is that a change needs to be considered and its not completly Carr's fault. he will excell in the NFL just as he did in College within the right system. Palmers ideas & game planning do not seem to compliment the strengths of his players. in order to be fair to Carr if things don't jell this season it will be time to find a new offensive coordinator.

I don't like complainers unless they have answears so this is mine- fire Palmer & woo Bob Hill from Fresno State to be the new offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans

Here is his bio- http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/...ill_pat00.html
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Old 09-03-2005   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover
the question is really did Carr deserve to be the 1st player selected in the 2002 inaugural draft of the Texans?

simple answear, yes he did

what I have noticed however is that a change needs to be considered and its not completly Carr's fault. he will excell in the NFL just as he did in College within the right system. Palmers ideas & game planning do not seem to compliment the strengths of his players. in order to be fair to Carr if things don't jell this season it will be time to find a new offensive coordinator.

I don't like complainers unless they have answears so this is mine- fire Palmer & woo Bob Hill from Fresno State to be the new offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans

Here is his bio- http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/...ill_pat00.html
Never he said he it did not deserve it, just has warranted it in hind sight. A solution is to cut Carr loose after this year if he does not show improvement as well let Palmer go and possibly Capers. I woudl not mind seeing Jerry Gray in here as HC.

I am sure Bob Hill is good man and sound coach.
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Old 09-03-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DomDavis
That's what practice is for. I'd rather Carr try to get his timing down in practice than to go all-out in preseason games and give defensive coordinators in the first month even more to prepare for.

There are excuses, and there is common sense. Carr had a very good season last year. He's done nothing to justify any concern. The Steelers were 15-1 last year, but Ben Roethlisberger had a QB rating of 32 in the preseason... do you really think they're worried? Answer: no.

few other points - not improving enough to justify a #1 pick? Umm, with a horrible offensive line, no secondary receivers and no pass-catching tight end all in only his third season, what rating did you expect him to put up? Give me a number... not something vague.

As far as Peppers being better right now - well duh. Everyone in the world, including the Texans, knew and expected Peppers to be better than Carr in the first three years. One's a DE and the other a QB. That's common sense. The investment was made for seasons four, five, six and so on, not the first three seasons with an expansion team.

And the leadership argument? hahaha. this thread has reached a new low. How do you know why certain players improve or decline? Maybe they did it with their own work ethic in the offseason. Maybe they improve or decline based on the offensive and defensive lines. Unless you're in the lockerroom, it's beyond foolish to make claims that "so and so has not made anyone better."

Now we're talking about Ragone? you guys are beyond hysterical. Aside from the fact that the game has zero meaning, Carr was going up against the best pass defense in the NFL last year... Ragone was going up against a bunch of third and fourth string scrubs. That might have just a bit to do with "how the players responded"...
excellent post.
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Old 09-03-2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
The intangbile fact is that Carr has not made anyone around him better, as in Carr is such a great talent or a great leader that everyone's game is elevated. Peppers reeks of this type of residual value.
Huh??? Are you serious or joking? He hasnt made anyone better? He made AJ a pro bowl WR. He made DD an 1800 all-purpose yard back and one of the best two tool runningbacks in the NFL, when most people didnt think he would even become a starter. There is no physical way that David can make his Oline better. He can't give them vision to read blitzes. He can't give them strength to overpower everyone. He can't give them better feet to move with. He's making everyone better that his offensive scheme ALLOWS him to make better.
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