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Old 09-01-2005   #41
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
First of all, this has nothing to do with KC Joyner. Second, I'm comparing Carr's third season with each of these other QBs third seasons. Of Course Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are better Qbs now, but I'm arguing that Carr is on a similar developmental path as the NFL's elite QBs took.
You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr is a good Qb and starting quality. Is there a chance that he could become an elite? Of course. A great chance? I don't think so. Elite Qbs are able to put a flawed team on thier back and win anyway. Has Carr shown me the ability to that regularly? No. Do I hope that I am wrong and he turns out to be a Top 5 Qb? Yes. I am Texans fan.
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Old 09-01-2005   #42
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Look at Drew Brees season before last. He stunk!!!!!!!!
Last season, he had a great year thanks to Gates. A good tight end would make some difference. Ours either drop the ball or stay injured, ie Joppru.

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Old 09-01-2005   #43
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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan
You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck. Carr is a good Qb and starting quality. Is there a chance that he could become an elite? Of course. A great chance? I don't think so. Elite Qbs are able to put a flawed team on thier back and win anyway. Has Carr shown me the ability to that regularly? No. Do I hope that I am wrong and he turns out to be a Top 5 Qb? Yes. I am Texans fan.

First, the two stats I'm looking at best incapsulate what QBs do:
1. Yards per attempt- this indicates accuracy, but unlike comp%, also factors in deep balls and intermediate routes. What stat is better at communicating a Qb's efficiency then showing what the average gain is every time he throws a pass.

2. Int. per attempt- Obviously, everyone but Mike Martz wants someone who takes care of the ball. So, a numerical description of how often the Qb throws an interception is a great indicator as well.

If the measurement of a great Qb is his ability to carry a flawed team on their back then Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana must not be great QBs... because they've not done that either.

Nobody is arguing that Carr is the next Elway. Once again my point is that he is progressing in his learning curve similarly to the other great modern quarterbacks. So, criticisms about his lack of development are unwarranted.
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Old 09-01-2005   #44
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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan
You are picking and choosing what stats you want to look at. His entire statistical overview does not say that. His stats (entire body) have as much if not in common with guys like Brooks and Hasselbeck.

Well, I think Hasselbeck is a very good Qb. As far as ABrooks, his interception to attempt ratio is quite a bit higher than Carr's third season. Also, both qbs average less Y/attempt.
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Old 09-01-2005   #45
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
First, the two stats I'm looking at best incapsulate what QBs do:
1. Yards per attempt- this indicates accuracy, but unlike comp%, also factors in deep balls and intermediate routes. What stat is better at communicating a Qb's efficiency then showing what the average gain is every time he throws a pass.

2. Int. per attempt- Obviously, everyone but Mike Martz wants someone who takes care of the ball. So, a numerical description of how often the Qb throws an interception is a great indicator as well.

If the measurement of a great Qb is his ability to carry a flawed team on their back then Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana must not be great QBs... because they've not done that either.

Nobody is arguing that Carr is the next Elway. Once again my point is that he is progressing in his learning curve similarly to the other great modern quarterbacks. So, criticisms about his lack of development are unwarranted.
We are going in circles and nothing new is being gained. Pretty much you defending two sets of stats as the most important and I am just watching him play. Both are subjective acts. I would like to tract this comparison going forward this year, but I have a question or two. What do these elite guys do in the fourth year in these categories? Is it another leap forward or do they maintain the level of performance?
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Old 09-01-2005   #46
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Originally Posted by corrosion
Joey Harrington took a beating aganist the Rams , Their O-line had a HORRIBLE game . Its real hard to look good as a QB when you spend that much time picking yourself up off the turf or running for your life . We should all know that from watching Carr the past three seasons .
As for Carr .... He will be fine as long as he gets time to throw . Only one int was the result of a poor decision the other should be chalked up to the reciever . (Matt Murphy)
the sad thing is, david carr did have time to throw the ball. the line did a decent job. there was too much miscommunication on routes and poorly thrown balls by david carr. i was pleased with the running game against dallas. the blocking was superb. we all gotta remember that the texans arent running the same style of offense as last year. this year we are running a more timing-based passing attack that will show more quick slants and quick screens. the key is that the recievers run their routes precisely so that the QB can be able to hit his target at a precise moment. this is supposed to cut sacks down, however i think this offense is not utilizing the potential of our recievers well. we need to take advantage of andres and jerome's speed and use a more vertical passing game, but the protection may not allow that to happen.
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Old 09-01-2005   #47
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
If QB rating is an accurate measuring stick then Neil Lomax, Brad Johnson, Randal Cunningham, Mark Brunell, Jake Delhomme are all better QBs than Troy Aikman. QB rating places too much emphasis on TD passes. TD passes have more to do with the system you play in than with the success/ability of the QB...

Oh Yeah, and Jeff Garcia would be a top 5 all-time QB.
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB. I think not, because this a team game and defense has a lot to do with it don't ya think? The QB passer Rating is still a very good measuring stick on a QB no matter how you try to spin it. Go look at last years QB ratings and tell me what QB that has better QB rating than is not better than him. I would not consider Aikman in the class of hall of famers that have rings...Montana, Young, Elway etc, but more in the class of Bradshaw and Theisman, average QB's with great defenses.

Let's test out your guage on QB's:

What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Yards per attempt?
What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Int. per attempt?

I'd like to see these lists.





Aikman had a better QB rating throughout his career than Cunningham, so you missed on that one.
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Old 09-01-2005   #48
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Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB. I think not, because this a team game and defense has a lot to do with it don't ya think? The QB passer Rating is still a very good measuring stick on a QB no matter how you try to spin it. Go look at last years QB ratings and tell me what QB that has better QB rating than is not better than him. I would not consider Aikman in the class of hall of famers that have rings...Montana, Young, Elway etc, but more in the class of Bradshaw and Theisman, average QB's with great defenses.

Let's test out your guage on QB's:

What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Yards per attempt?
What QB's rank ahead of Carr in Int. per attempt?

I'd like to see these lists.





Aikman had a better QB rating throughout his career than Cunningham, so you missed on that one.
... according to my source, Cunningham was about .2% higher.


Most agree that Aikman was a great QB because most saw him play. He was deadly accurate and executed flawlessly in his prime. I compare Carr to him because they are asked to do similar things in their offenses. Carr, like Aikman, likely will never have an opportunity to throw 30tds. Either of them could accomplish that on the St. Louis Rams. However, what they will be asked to do is to make plays during the game, collect critical first downs and command the respect of the opposing defense. Players like Marino, Montana, KWarner, PManning have made the most of an opportunity to be great that most QBs never have.

QBs like Carr and Aikman are/were not in systems that would allow that level of success from the QB spot. Criticizing Aikman's TD/Int ratio is amateurish. Would you have more respect for him if he audibled out of runs to Emmitt Smith on first and goal in order to play-action pass to Novacek in order to pad his stats? In Dallas, TDs went to the running game- not because of Aikman's inabilities but because that wast the nature of the offense and Emmitt was likely the greatest short yardage back of all-time.
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Old 09-01-2005   #49
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well of these QBs in their third years:

PManning
Brady
McNair
McNabb
Vick
TGreen
CPennington
BFavre
Culpepper


only Manning had a higher Y/att... Manning 7.7, Carr 7.6
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Old 09-01-2005   #50
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Originally Posted by TexanFanInCC
the sad thing is, david carr did have time to throw the ball. the line did a decent job. there was too much miscommunication on routes and poorly thrown balls by david carr. i was pleased with the running game against dallas. the blocking was superb. we all gotta remember that the texans arent running the same style of offense as last year. this year we are running a more timing-based passing attack that will show more quick slants and quick screens. the key is that the recievers run their routes precisely so that the QB can be able to hit his target at a precise moment. this is supposed to cut sacks down, however i think this offense is not utilizing the potential of our recievers well. we need to take advantage of andres and jerome's speed and use a more vertical passing game, but the protection may not allow that to happen.
Agree'd . The O-line did a much better job VS. Dallas .... Im quite pleasantly surprised by this . The running game was very good ..... Yet the offense was not firing on all cylinders to say the least . Several dropped balls , some mis-communication , a few busted route's and poorly thrown balls .
As you stated they have changed their offense quite dramaticly .... There will be a transition period ..... How long will it take . Who knows , but i expect by mid-season they will shut us up .... pending the continued good play from the O-line. Could be sooner , could be later but it will happen .

As for taking advantage of the strengths of the recievers .... they have to keep Carr on his feet to do so . The solid running game should help tremendously . Making play action much more effective , which in turn should open up the middle of the field .
As for Mathis , I dont see him being on the field a whole lot this season barring injury (other than special teams). Although he will probably be in on 4 wide sets . A lot of people are of the opinion that he is the savior of the passing game .... I just dont think he's ready , speed isnt everything .
The 1991 Hiesman winner Desmond Howard was fast too .... what did he ever do in the NFL ?
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Old 09-01-2005   #51
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Originally Posted by SESupergenius
Why do you think that Aikman is a good measuring stick. In his career he had 165 TD's and 141 Int's, far from a great QB. Just because Aikman has some superbowl rings makes him the best QB??? He's not better than Marino or Manning, yet he has the rings. So you are basically saying that you need the rings to be considered a great QB.
On a little side note here--greatness can be defined in different ways. Like AT says, he looks at it and sees it rather than relies on the stats as much. One thing which was obvious about Aikman was his game massively elevated once he was in the post-season. When opposing D's were greater, when O's were sticking up points, Aikman would perform virtually flawlessly. He had some otherworldly streak of quarters of post-season play without an INT at one point. Playing your greatest when it counts the most is a measuring stick of greatness IMO.

On the flip side, although this is overstated to a degree, look at Manning. I don't give two flips if you have 150 TD's in the regular season if you can't figure out a way to win playoff games except against Denver.
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Old 09-01-2005   #52
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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan
We are going in circles and nothing new is being gained. Pretty much you defending two sets of stats as the most important and I am just watching him play. Both are subjective acts. I would like to tract this comparison going forward this year, but I have a question or two. What do these elite guys do in the fourth year in these categories? Is it another leap forward or do they maintain the level of performance?
expect another significant leap forward... at least that is my contention and it is what history dictates should happen.
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Old 09-01-2005   #53
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Let's Not Forget The Bottom Line As Well Carr Only Had One Break Out Season At Fresno, Face It Most Of Us Never Even Heard About Carr Until He Was Drafted. I Guess Only Time Will Tell, With Him I Hope He Is Truely A Diamond In The Ruff, And Leads Our Team To The Playoff's In The Near Future.
Most QBs only have one break out year in college, no one heard of Carlson Palmer either until the year he got drafted. I think they are product of the system that they played in that hyped them up to be a top pick.
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Old 09-01-2005   #54
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
well of these QBs in their third years:

PManning
Brady
McNair
McNabb
Vick
TGreen
CPennington
BFavre
Culpepper


only Manning had a higher Y/att... Manning 7.7, Carr 7.6
So David Carr is better than all of those QB's? Wow. I can just say...wow.
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Old 09-01-2005   #55
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expect another significant leap forward... at least that is my contention and it is what history dictates should happen.
Okay, makes sense...here's hoping you're correct.
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Old 09-01-2005   #56
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
... according to my source, Cunningham was about .2% higher.
Stats.com has Cunningham at 81.6, Aikman at 81.5.
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Old 09-01-2005   #57
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Troy Aikman was a great QB.

His first few years were futile but once the team got built he was great.

Hey it's all about winning Super Bowl's. Troy was in 3 and won all three.

He was the most accurate post season QB ever I think.

As a Cowboy fan I wouldn't have traded Troy for anybody the years he played.
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Old 09-01-2005   #58
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Originally Posted by WWJD
Troy Aikman was a great QB.

His first few years were futile but once the team got built he was great.

Hey it's all about winning Super Bowl's. Troy was in 3 and won all three.

He was the most accurate post season QB ever I think.

As a Cowboy fan I wouldn't have traded Troy for anybody the years he played.
Carr picked off again already...ouch
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Old 09-01-2005   #59
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I see alot of harrington bashing in this thread.

91.9 is his QB rating for the past 3 games

I think Carr is about 13 for 4 of them

The both have the same amount of attempts.
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Old 09-01-2005   #60
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I cant and wont defend his play tonight .... it was HORRIBLE
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