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Old 08-11-2005   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Haywood was cut in 1995. He retired after playing in just 9 games as a Saint. He pretty much played his entire career here as Givins did. Here is a piece on Givins by hpf...

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/team/wr3.html

i dont know for a fact but i always got the impression that those guys did not do anything after the run n shoot was finished because they were products of the system. after we changed offenses we learned they were not able to get open on their own. they went to other teams and quit or were cut soon after. i believe they were not as good as the stats lead us to believe.

givins was my favorite reciever of all time i just dont think he would have made it in a conventional offense.
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Old 08-11-2005   #22
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In my opinion Haywood is/was overrated (then and now still), and Givins could play well just about anywhere like Drew Hill (another smallish WR). Givins was simply electric. Givins was done when he left here, he had nothing left much like Earl had nothing left. Nine years of pounding took the toll on his little body in a league of big people.
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Old 08-11-2005   #23
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The system is not what made those guys great.(it helped)

Every good reciever is somewhat a product of the system. You either embrace it or you don't make it in the NFL. How often do you see a player (any position) do well on one team and then move to another team and stink. It happens.

Yes the system helped.
A good QB helped.
A good running back helped.
A good offensive line helped.


But most importantly those guys all pretty much PEAKED at the exact same time.
(That is very very rare in this league.) When you have 4 great recievers the defense can't roll coverage to the strong side, when both sides are strong.

All those guys spent the prime of their careers in Houston. 7-8 a years with 5-6 very productive years is a good NFL career. Yes some of them were cut as they reached the twilight of their careers. That is how it works in this league. Eventually everyone retires or gets cut.

To me Haywood Jeffries was a poor man's Michael Irving, but I love the guy. The smurfs (givins and hill). LOL the Electric Slide thing. That was classic. I loved those days.

What ever they did, for several years it worked. They put up a winning record every year from 1987-1993. No they didn't win a championship. But of those 7 years we lost by a touch down or less 5 times in the playoffs.
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Old 08-11-2005   #24
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Poor mans Micael Irving? More like a kicked up Cory Bradford. Haywood and Duncan were average receivers on the outside. Givins and Hill were the mojo of that offense.
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Old 08-11-2005   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
The system is not what made those guys great.(it helped)

Every good reciever is somewhat a product of the system. You either embrace it or you don't make it in the NFL. How often do you see a player (any position) do well on one team and then move to another team and stink. It happens.

Yes the system helped.
A good QB helped.
A good running back helped.
A good offensive line helped.


But most importantly those guys all pretty much PEAKED at the exact same time.
(That is very very rare in this league.) When you have 4 great recievers the defense can't roll coverage to the strong side, when both sides are strong.

All those guys spent the prime of their careers in Houston. 7-8 a years with 5-6 very productive years is a good NFL career. Yes some of them were cut as they reached the twilight of their careers. That is how it works in this league. Eventually everyone retires or gets cut.

To me Haywood Jeffries was a poor man's Michael Irving, but I love the guy. The smurfs (givins and hill). LOL the Electric Slide thing. That was classic. I loved those days.

What ever they did, for several years it worked. They put up a winning record every year from 1987-1993. No they didn't win a championship. But of those 7 years we lost by a touch down or less 5 times in the playoffs.
dont get me wrong i lived and died with that team(mostly died). but the run and shoot has made a lot of players look really good. david klinger and andre ware were a couple.
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Old 08-11-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by markbeth
dont get me wrong i lived and died with that team(mostly died). but the run and shoot has made a lot of players look really good. david klinger and andre ware were a couple.
You are talking college though. What did the run and shoot do for Bob Gaglinano up in Detroit? Nobody rememers their Run and Shoot. Heck, they had Ware there too. You still needed talent to push the numbers at the NFL level. Moon, our line, Hill and Givins were the talent behind the Run and shoot here.
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Old 08-11-2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC7
Givins did good before we went to the Run N Shoot, he was drafted in 1986. If my memory serves me correct we ran a conventional offense(may have added a form of it in 87-88, I want to say the Red Gun) from 1986-1990 before Pardee took over and went to the RNS full time.

Givins was my favorite receiver also.

im pretty sure we ran a 4 wide reciever set most of the time when glanville was coach. he was right before pardee. they were mostly run n shoot style but tried to run a conventional offense in certain situations.
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Old 08-11-2005   #28
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No, we used tight ends and tried to run the ball with Glanville. We had a multifaceted attack that included 4 wides though.
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Old 08-11-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
You are talking college though. What did the run and shoot do for Bob Gaglinano up in Detroit? Nobody rememers their Run and Shoot. Heck, they had Ware there too. You still needed talent to push the numbers at the NFL level. Moon, our line, Hill and Givins were the talent behind the Run and shoot here.

i agree with you about moon and the o-line. we even had good running backs. not sure about all the recievers though. really the only one we might disagree on is givins. he just seems like more of a jj moses type player
that was lucky to play in a system designed specifically for him.
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Old 08-11-2005   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
No, we used tight ends and tried to run the ball with Glanville. We had a multifaceted attack that included 4 wides though.
i was thinking we used 4 wides more than 50% of the time.
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Old 08-11-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Poor mans Micael Irving? More like a kicked up Cory Bradford. Haywood and Duncan were average receivers on the outside. Givins and Hill were the mojo of that offense.
If being a three time pro bowler is average then the Texans need to pick up a few AVERAGE recievers.

Duncan was decent to average. I am biased because I just remember him making some clutch third down / 2 minute drill catches.

But yeah I know what you mean...
5foot9 170lb Givins going over the middle, getting hammered, but holding on to the ball for the first down was the heart and soul of what made those Oiler teams so great. Drew Hill has some slick moves and knew how to get open.
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Old 08-11-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
If being a three time pro bowler is average then the Texans need to pick up a few AVERAGE recievers.
That's why I said he was overrated. In my eyes he was truely a product of the system, and he got in the pro bowl because of pure numbers. Tons of 8 yard curls and outs. I hated that offense too. I think if we ran a conventional offense we would have at least one Super Bowl appearance.
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Old 08-11-2005   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbeth
i was thinking we used 4 wides more than 50% of the time.
One of the problems with Glanvilles "red gun" offense was the fact that we came out with TE's in first and second down and went to different personel on 3rd down or long second downs. We didn't have a system that could run or pass equally from one formation or package.
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Old 08-11-2005   #34
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EG was the man.....
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Old 08-11-2005   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
That's why I said he was overrated. In my eyes he was truely a product of the system, and he got in the pro bowl because of pure numbers. Tons of 8 yard curls and outs. I hated that offense too. I think if we ran a conventional offense we would have at least one Super Bowl appearance.

unlike you i loved the offense. although i dont think it would work again it sure did work pretty well then. 38 points in a cold playoff game in buffalo. should be enough to win even if you cant run the clock out. also i remember 2 other playoff games we lost when we had a lead after halftime. denver, where haywood droped a first down pass giving elway his chance at a miracle. and kc where we had a ton of injuries that helped kill that year(that and the greastest qb ever).

eventually teams caught up with that offense and learned to defend it.

from what i hear the texans wide outs use a form of the run n shoot. maybe thats why they cant seem to get it going against the cover two. the cover two tries to eleminate the deep patterns and the run n shoot tries to go where the defense is not. so that eleminates a lot of the field.

i dont know a lot of the x's and o's so i may be way off on that last part.
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Old 08-11-2005   #36
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Palmer still uses the multi-read and react RnS patterns (take what they give you instead of dictate the action) and most of this off-season hoopla is about switching to more timing routes. We will still run the RnS style routes but they will not be the main part of our offense from what I gather.

The RnS was a failure in the NFL. It really didn't work here although it looked good on paper. If you liked stats it was the offense for you (lots of baseball fans loved it). It was rotten outside the 20's and nobody could make it work outside Moon and the Oilers. Personally I think it wasn't physical enough. There is a physical dynamic that is impossible to discount when the field shrinks in the red zone. Speed no longer dictates, and the more physical team wins in the red zone. You can't be more physical than the other team with 4 midget WR's and no TE and no FB. Also, there is a clock to deal with. The RnS just couldn't manage the clock with so many incomplete passes that were inevitable. It was a disaster up in Detroit where the Father of the RnS Mouse Davis tried to make it work and couldn't.
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Old 08-11-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Palmer still uses the multi-read and react RnS patterns (take what they give you instead of dictate the action) and most of this off-season hoopla is about switching to more timing routes. We will still run the RnS style routes but they will not be the main part of our offense from what I gather.

The RnS was a failure in the NFL. It really didn't work here although it looked good on paper. If you liked stats it was the offense for you (lots of baseball fans loved it). It was rotten outside the 20's and nobody could make it work outside Moon and the Oilers. Personally I think it wasn't physical enough. There is a physical dynamic that is impossible to discount when the field shrinks in the red zone. Speed no longer dictates, and the more physical team wins in the red zone. You can't be more physical than the other team with 4 midget WR's and no TE and no FB. Also, there is a clock to deal with. The RnS just couldn't manage the clock with so many incomplete passes that were inevitable. It was a disaster up in Detroit where the Father of the RnS Mouse Davis tried to make it work and couldn't.

here are some stats. points scored 1990 thru 1993 under pardee by nfl rank. they were number 2 in 90, 4 in 91, 6 in 92 and 4 in 93. thats points not yardage. they were also ranked 3rd in the afc in scoring inside the redzone in 90 or 91. i couldnt find anymore of the redzone stats but it was not near as bad as the perception.

that team could have easily won a super bowl with that offense. things just didnt fall the right way. to many bonehead players and a coach who didnt have control of his team was the main reasons they didnt win.
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Old 08-11-2005   #38
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Like I said...looks great on paper but there is a clock you have to manage and a defensive unit on the field all game. Stats extrapolate great in baseball and you can paint clear pictures with them and define who is good, but stats don't give the full picture in football, never have. If it was such a wonderful offense why didn't it work (ie win someone a super bowl...or win in the playoffs)? I think I know why....but those are just my thoughts. Nobody runs it as a stand-alone offense at the NFL level for a reason.
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Old 08-11-2005   #39
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Like I said...looks great on paper but there is a clock you have to manage and a defensive unit on the field all game. Stats extrapolate great in baseball and you can paint clear pictures with them and define who is good, but stats don't give the full picture in football, never have. If it was such a wonderful offense why didn't it work (ie win someone a super bowl...or win in the playoffs)? I think I know why....but those are just my thoughts. Nobody runs it as a stand-alone offense at the NFL level for a reason.
alright here is why they lost the 3 most meaningfull games they had.

against denver haywood droped a first down pass with a little over two minutes remaining. in buffalo the defense gave up 35 points in the second half. and against kc by the end of the game there were 10 starters not in the game due to injury. 3 of them were on the offensive line.

in my opinion these were things that the offense could not control.

i dont think people realize who fragile winning is. a droped ball here or a missed block there. could be the difference. i believe if those games were each played 10 times the "titians" win the majority of those games. and people would have a totally diff opinion of that offense.

history is writen by the victors.

at least you changed my opinion a little about givins.
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Old 08-11-2005   #40
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Wouldn't an offense that could control the clock help minimize the amount of time the Bills had to score those 35 points? Wouldn't an offense that could control the clock also give their defense quite a bit more time to rest between drives? Seems like keeping the Bills offense of the field and having them face a rested defense the time they did get on the field might reduce some of that second half scoring.
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