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Old 08-11-2005   #41
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BTW.. keep in mind that our coaches have a very odd way of doing things in preseason matchups.

Remember last year against the Steelers where their defense just ran all over us. We couldnt get a yard rushing.

It looked REALLY bad.. but it turns out.. we just had a set plan on what we were going to do.. and the steelers were doing something that tore that plan to peices. Instead of changing our plans, we just kept doing what we came to do.. and so it looked REALLY bad.. but it came out fine once the real games came along.

Last edited by Grid; 08-11-2005 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 08-11-2005   #42
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Originally Posted by Runner
I don't know what is so remarkable about that - contrary to popular belief, the main problem last year was pressure up the middle. I paid close attention to the line play last year since it was a big issue, and that's my observation.

First of all the worst lineman isn't the left tackle, it's the center. If McKinney wasn't a popular local product we might see more activity there. The press seem to love him. Second, Weigert was hurt a lot so was playing at less than 100% and our back-up guards don't cut it. Was Weigert or someone else playing last night?

Wand "gave up" more sacks last year, but at least 4 of those came from Carr scrambling from pressure up the middle. When Carr would go past the end that Wand had engaged and under control the end would slide off and make the tackle. Wand couldn't see Carr coming on those plays because Carr was coming from behind him. Easy sack for the end caused by pressure up the middle.

That is what is frustrating to me. It looks like Wand is being scapegoated (at least by a lot of posters here if not the coaches) for all the problems with the line. From people who have watched the practices, Riley isn't as good as Wand so maybe this is just a ploy to fire Wand up. I don't know if that is effective with him; with a young player having him play with the first team and learn might be more effective then tearing down his confidence. Especially when he is better than the guy in front of him.

Also, if you look at other teams (like the Patriots) sometimes they'd have the center take on a defensive tackle and let the left guard and left tackle double team the defensive end - like Freeney at Indy. Our center doesn't allow us to use that scheme.

Deep breath - I feel better now.
Good post and astute observations...it's in line with much of what I posted here last year.
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Old 08-12-2005   #43
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Originally Posted by Runner
I don't know what is so remarkable about that - contrary to popular belief, the main problem last year was pressure up the middle. I paid close attention to the line play last year since it was a big issue, and that's my observation.

First of all the worst lineman isn't the left tackle, it's the center. If McKinney wasn't a popular local product we might see more activity there. The press seem to love him. Second, Weigert was hurt a lot so was playing at less than 100% and our back-up guards don't cut it. Was Weigert or someone else playing last night?

Wand "gave up" more sacks last year, but at least 4 of those came from Carr scrambling from pressure up the middle. When Carr would go past the end that Wand had engaged and under control the end would slide off and make the tackle. Wand couldn't see Carr coming on those plays because Carr was coming from behind him. Easy sack for the end caused by pressure up the middle.

That is what is frustrating to me. It looks like Wand is being scapegoated (at least by a lot of posters here if not the coaches) for all the problems with the line. From people who have watched the practices, Riley isn't as good as Wand so maybe this is just a ploy to fire Wand up. I don't know if that is effective with him; with a young player having him play with the first team and learn might be more effective then tearing down his confidence. Especially when he is better than the guy in front of him.

Also, if you look at other teams (like the Patriots) sometimes they'd have the center take on a defensive tackle and let the left guard and left tackle double team the defensive end - like Freeney at Indy. Our center doesn't allow us to use that scheme.

Deep breath - I feel better now.

Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).
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Old 08-12-2005   #44
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Originally Posted by wags
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).
He doesn't have to because the front office follows these boards daily

for whatever the reason the Texans have been demolished by nagging injurys on both lines. lets wait and see one more year when they are actually healthy. if Riley works out he will be an absolute steal. Wade played hurt, while all three Pitts, McKinney & Weigert had issues that negated their strengths. same can be said for Payne & Walker.

this will be the make or break year, make no mistake about it
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Old 08-12-2005   #45
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He doesn't have to because the front office follows these boards daily
You mean they read all my *****ic crap!!!
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Old 08-12-2005   #46
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Originally Posted by wags
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).
Excellent rebuttal. Very well thought out.

A few questions:

Do you only post the company line?

Do you truly believe replacing Wand will fix all the OL problems?

Has an NFL front office/coaching staff ever made a mistake?

If we're so desparate, why haven't we picked up Verba?

Feel free to use more than two sentences to answer these questions.

Last edited by Runner; 08-12-2005 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 08-12-2005   #47
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Originally Posted by wags
Maybe you should forward this post to the Front Office, since all they did this off-season was try to get Left Tackles to come in. Obviously the Front Office thinks differently from you (and others).
Remind me again of all the FA centers (that would have been significant upgrades) who were available that the Texans' made no moves on this off-season?
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Old 08-12-2005   #48
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Remind me again of all the FA centers (that would have been significant upgrades) who were available that the Texans' made no moves on this off-season?
I don't know if there were any. My point is that Wand is being unfairly blamed for problems that aren't his.

I personnaly think we should give last year's line a chance this year with the new offense and some seasoning.

I understand that building the team is a zero sum game - if we spend a bunch on one area that limits the rest. That is why I didn't like the Pace trade - 10s of millions of dollars and 2 first rounders for 4-6 fewer sacks? I don't think so.

Here's how I'd rate the Texan off-season:

Defensive Line - Improved long and short term.
Linebackers - Improved (but that remains to be proven)
Defensive Backs - same or a little better now but definitely improved over the long term

Offensive Line - Same
QB - same but with an improved Ragone
Running Backs - more depth
TE - Same
Wide Receivers - improved and lots of depth

Special Teams - better returners

So I think as a team we've improved and not regressed in any area. Yes it would have been nice to fix the OL and TE too, but then we'd be complaining about other areas. For instance I don't think we'd be happy with the D-line without the Travis Johnson addition.

So I think the front office has done pretty well with the resources available. If they can improve just two areas next off-season we'll have a pretty well built team.
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Old 08-12-2005   #49
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Originally Posted by Runner
I don't know if there were any. My point is that Wand is being unfairly blamed for problems that aren't his.
I happen to agree with you. Wags however was postulating that since we didn't hear about them trying to get a C that the Texans disagree with us. I was therefore asking Wags to remind me of the prominent centers who were available as FA's that the Texans wilfully passed on thus proving his point.
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Old 08-12-2005   #50
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
I happen to agree with you. Wags however was postulating that since we didn't hear about them trying to get a C that the Texans disagree with us. I was therefore asking Wags to remind me of the prominent centers who were available as FA's that the Texans wilfully passed on thus proving his point.
Oh.

Let me get another cup of coffee and I'll be a little more alert.
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Old 08-12-2005   #51
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The starting center for the Ravens was available as was Mike Wahl from the Packers for a good gaurd. Both were highly rated. IMO, we should have made a run at them to shore up the middle of the line which I believe to be the real problem. However, I doubt we could have secured both without damaging our cap. Of course we could have dumped McKinny and Wiegert to save money. The issue then is continuty and ability to work well together this year, but I think it would have paid offbig time next year. JMO.
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Old 08-12-2005   #52
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Casey Rabach is no better than McKinney. He is stuggling in Washington and looked terrible against the Ravens in their scrimmage. The only reason he started for the Ravens was because Mike Flynn, the Ravens real starting center, was injured in preseason.
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Old 08-12-2005   #53
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You guys obviously pay closer attention to your line than I do but it stands to reason that the middle of your line is a little soft in pass protection. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Texans use a zone blocking scheme, similar to what the Broncos use. The OL is full of players that are more athlete than beast. Athleticsm is more important b/c they have to do two things. Get around a defender and block down hill and then get to the 2nd level and pick up a LB or DB. You've been having success in the running game from a grand total production standpoint. You struggle in short yardage situations with the running game though, which is another by-product of the smaller O-line. I guess what I'm trying to say is you will continue to have problems with both pass protection and short yardage running. That is why Shanny has become known as the mastermind. His innovative passing game allows us to utilize the smaller more athletic lineman and still remain productive and secure. By secure I mean offsetting the pressure. I believe Plummer was sacked 17 times last year. Two teams I believe had less sacks. If we were to ask Plummer to sit in a pocket every passing play I'd venture to say that # would be up in the 40s easily! To sum this up, you have to be a little more inovative with your plays. If Palmer were to install a few more bootlegs that alone would slow the pass rush. Carr has the ability to move outside the hashes and typically it's easier for a QB to make a decision out there b/c he can throw it away without penalty b/c he's outside the OT. Anyhow, I'm rambling on and on. Just wanted you guys to know that you do have a good OL they're just not being utilized properly in the passing game and don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.


I'm not saying this is for the sure the reason of you struggles as I'm not real sure what your C and OG's size is but I'm guessing they're probably real close to be 300 lbs at best. Hope it works out for you all!

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Old 08-12-2005   #54
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Originally Posted by edo783
Of course we could have dumped McKinny and Wiegert to save money. The issue then is continuty and ability to work well together this year, but I think it would have paid offbig time next year. JMO.
I think Wiegert, when healthy, is one of our better linemen. I really like where we are at both our guard spots. Pitts looks pretty solid at LG, and he should be there for years to come. Wiegert does a very good job at RG when he's healthy, and he and Wade are very good run blockers. I wouldn't mind seeing better quality depth, or perhaps even picking up a talented young G next year from the draft as opposed to picking up an aging overpriced veteran FA guard. McKinney definately needs to be replaced, but I doubt the rookie Hodgdon will be ready to seriously compete for a starting spot this season. Hopefully a year in the Texans training program will be enough to get him ready to compete for the spot next year.
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Old 08-12-2005   #55
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I think Wiegert is 31 or 32 years old and while he is good, he is broken most of the time. Wahle I think is only 26 or 27 and no history of injury. Just seems like a better, longer term option to me.
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Old 08-12-2005   #56
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Guess that's where we differ. I feel that Wiegert can still be a good player for us at RG for a few more seasons and provide us time to find a young guy in the draft to replace him at a cheaper price. I believe Pitts is still under his rookie contract (somewhere over 2.6 million dollars total for the 4 year deal), and he's been an excellent value for the money. I imagine the Texans will be redoing his deal sometime soon, and if they pay him well they might be looking for a good value at the other guard spot. JMO of course.
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Old 08-12-2005   #57
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Wiegert turns 33 on Tuesday. He's still good but by next season they need to start preparing for the future. In fact, they need to start now. I haven't been all that impressed with #79 Chad Beasley who is running second team behind Wiegert and has been filling in for him on first team since Wiegert's been hurt. Wiegert has played in 28 out of a possible 32 games for the Texans so it's not like he's been an injury liability.

Chester Pitts is on pace to be eligible for UFA after this season.

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Old 08-12-2005   #58
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Originally Posted by BroncoMan13
You guys obviously pay closer attention to your line than I do but it stands to reason that the middle of your line is a little soft in pass protection. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Texans use a zone blocking scheme, similar to what the Broncos use. The OL is full of players that are more athlete than beast. Athleticsm is more important b/c they have to do two things. Get around a defender and block down hill and then get to the 2nd level and pick up a LB or DB. You've been having success in the running game from a grand total production standpoint. You struggle in short yardage situations with the running game though, which is another by-product of the smaller O-line. I guess what I'm trying to say is you will continue to have problems with both pass protection and short yardage running. That is why Shanny has become known as the mastermind. His innovative passing game allows us to utilize the smaller more athletic lineman and still remain productive and secure. By secure I mean offsetting the pressure. I believe Plummer was sacked 17 times last year. Two teams I believe had less sacks. If we were to ask Plummer to sit in a pocket every passing play I'd venture to say that # would be up in the 40s easily! To sum this up, you have to be a little more inovative with your plays. If Palmer were to install a few more bootlegs that alone would slow the pass rush. Carr has the ability to move outside the hashes and typically it's easier for a QB to make a decision out there b/c he can throw it away without penalty b/c he's outside the OT. Anyhow, I'm rambling on and on. Just wanted you guys to know that you do have a good OL they're just not being utilized properly in the passing game and don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.


I'm not saying this is for the sure the reason of you struggles as I'm not real sure what your C and OG's size is but I'm guessing they're probably real close to be 300 lbs at best. Hope it works out for you all!
Interesting stuff. Thanks for joining in.
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Old 08-12-2005   #59
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don't expect to have any of your RB's be really solid in 3rd and short situations.
Domanick Davis had a 5.7 avg. (15 carries for 85 yards) last season on 3rd down and 2 or less.

Take away the one that went for 23 yards and his average would have still been 4.4.
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Old 08-12-2005   #60
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Another reason why Plummer is sacked less is that he is a great scrambler. While Carr is good at running, he doesn't have that pocket awarness that Plummer has either.
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