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Inelligible receiver... Belicheat??

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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So Harbaugh is upset.

Based on the math alone, Ravens coach John Harbaugh knew something was sketchy.

The Patriots only had four linemen in the game. Six players where eligible. By rule, seven players had to be on the line, but it was impossible for the Ravens defense to figure out who they needed to cover.

Harbaugh came onto the field pleading with the officials as much as he was arguing with them.

It cost him a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, but if it meant clearing up the situation, he’d take it.

“We wanted an opportunity to be able to ID who the eligible players were,” Harbaugh said. “Because what they were doing was they would announce the eligible player and then Tom [Brady] would take them to the line right away and snap the ball before we even had a chance to figure out who was lined up where. That was the deception part of it. It was clearly deception.’’

He believes the Patriots were being dirty.

To understand why Harbaugh was angry, let's look at one of the Patriots' plays in question, from the third quarter. It looks like a regular empty-backfield shotgun formation, but tight end Michael Hoomanawanui's actually lined up at left tackle. (It's hard to see, but trust me.) Running back Shane Vereen is lined up on the right, and declared himself an ineligible receiver before the play.
iqudvj0ipvfpja8qh8xq.png


Now, after the ball's snapped:

zvmnmv0jvo1pcpjiy1d8.png

My question, is if Vareen is inelligible & counts as one of the seven guys on the LOS, how is that TE on his side able to run down field? Shouldn't that guy have to line up to the right of Vareen?
 
Within the rules...
Substitutions by the New England Patriots questioned by Baltimore Ravens coach John Harbaugh on Saturday were within the rule book.

Former NFL director of officials Mike Pereira said the moves were "perfectly legal" even if they caused confusion on the Ravens' sideline.

"There is a specific rule that says than an eligible numbered player can report as ineligible and line up anywhere on the line as long as he is covered by a wideout who is on the line," Pereira said. "Perfectly legal. ... The Ravens have a responsibility to react immediately."

Patriots running back Shane Vereen reported as an ineligible player and lined up in the slot for the Patriots.
 
They could have called time out. He should be wondering how his team gave up two 14 point leads.

They shouldn't have to waste a timeout. When a player comes and declares ineligible it should be announced the way it is when one declares eligible.
 
Perfectly legal.

The TE lined up at LT isn't covered up. Both WRs on his side are off the line of scrimmage. So he is eligible. Vereen is on the line of scrimmage and he is covered up by the WR outside of him, who is also on the line. This makes Vereen ineligible and as long as he declares himself as such and never crosses the line of scrimmage there is nothing wrong with this alignment.

If NE substituted then the refs have to give Baltimore time to do the same. But Baltimore wasn't trying to sub, they just didn't know how to line up against the formation.

NFL coaches probably don't see this often so they hesitated on how to defend it. That's on them. I see high schools try this all the time. It's not that difficult. I'd jam everybody off the line and rush two guys off the edge of the LG. He can't block both and the C can't get over there quick enough after snapping the ball. The only way NE could beat that is with a QB draw, which I would happily invite them to run.
 
If anything, the refs should take the time to announce it like they do a lineman coming in as an eligible receiver. But other than that, just a Harbaugh whining like a Harbaugh does.
 
Perfectly legal and of dubious sportsmanlike conduct. The defense didn't get time to react, because of the lateness of the declaration of ineligibility.

Just Belicheck doing Belicheck things.
 
smart, sly - very dubious. which is obvious because we're here talking about it. the crazy sub package is fine, as is putting players on the field with different tags. the trouble is he know that the way it would be handled would give him a decided advantage. he wasn't beating the ravens with those subs, he was beating the refs. they mishandled the situation by not clearly giving the defense notification of the substitution's designations, nor enough time to perform their own subs in response. legal, but dubious at best to use a tactic to beat the system instead of beating the opponent.
 
Dubious sportsmanship? If you say so, I don't see it

I think it's definitely "dubious" other wise you'd see teams doing it more often.

Still, it's the defenses job to defend & I don't see how naming Vareen inelligible (which was announced clearly before the play) presents such a problem. The two TEs are still eligible receivers. They weren't on the line & should have been defended.

If that was too complicated, someone should have called a time out.
 
I think it's definitely "dubious" other wise you'd see teams doing it more often.

Still, it's the defenses job to defend & I don't see how naming Vareen inelligible (which was announced clearly before the play) presents such a problem. The two TEs are still eligible receivers. They weren't on the line & should have been defended.

If that was too complicated, someone should have called a time out.

That's the way I see it. Maybe they need to take out the halfback pass too because the defense had trouble defending that as well.
:tiphat:
 
Pats didn't do anything wrong. They declared ineligible like they are supposed to. Blame the refs for screwing up the announcement or blame Harbaugh for not calling a timeout. It's not New England's job to get Baltimore lined up on defense.
 
"I don’t know what you’re talking about. That happens all the time,” Belichick said Monday on a conference call with the media. “You come in on the punt team, and eligible guys are reported as ineligible. They come in as guards and tackles on the punt team. The center — most of the (long snappers’) numbers in the NFL are eligible players that report as ineligible, then they cover punts.

“We see that on offense, we see it a lot in special tams and the punting game. Not so much on field goals because you have your linemen in there protecting. I’d say it happens in every game on the punt team. You’re allowed to do that. We did it. I don’t really understand what the question is. If it’s about the rules, you should talk to the NFL rules people. Let them tell you about it.”

Belichick said he saw an NFL team use a similar set, inspiring the Patriots to use their own.

“It’s a play that — it’s a situation that I saw another team use, kinda,” Belichick said. “We talked about it, thought about ways to put some pressure on the defense with that type of concept to defend more receivers on the field than were actually eligible — to make them ineligible instead of making the ineligible guys eligible, to go the other way around. We came up with a few ideas.

“The origin of that play was from the NFL. What they did wasn’t — it sparked some ideas. That’s what we did.”

Perhaps Belichick is referring to a set that the Jacksonville Jaguars used multiple times when they split out two offensive linemen. The Jaguars kept five offensive linemen on the field, however.

screen-shot-2015-01-12-at-2-19-55-pm.png


The Patriots used four offensive linemen and made running back Shane Vereen ineligible on two plays and tight end Michael Hoomanawanui on one. On those plays, Vereen and Hoomanawanui still could catch passes as long as quarterback Tom Brady’s throws went backward.

“Yeah. I think you see it every week,” Belichick said. I’d venture to say I couldn’t remember a time I haven’t seen an eligible receiver report as an eligible player in the National Football League — I’d say that happens every week.”
http://nesn.com/2015/01/bill-belichick-patriots-were-allowed-to-use-four-ol-so-we-did-it/
 
Within the rules

Communicated with 7 seconds left before snap

Lack of communication by coaches in the box to the coaches on the field

Should have called timeout.
 
was watching the pats colts and they kept saying that the eligible receiver is announced? they announce it on the big speaker??? players are supposed to know the names of the players? one side of the dline has to relay to the other side who is eligible all while trying to prevent the pats from their uptempo play calls??

nfl, please fix this stupid rule. bellicheck is making the nfl look stupid.
 
was watching the pats colts and they kept saying that the eligible receiver is announced? they announce it on the big speaker??? players are supposed to know the names of the players? one side of the dline has to relay to the other side who is eligible all while trying to prevent the pats from their uptempo play calls??

nfl, please fix this stupid rule. bellicheck is making the nfl look stupid.

This is the rule that allows Jj Watt to come in & score TDs.
 
And you also see the ineligible guy running the front of his shirt as he's reporting to the ref. signaling he's ineligible.
 
And coming soon to a NFLN and/or ESPN news cast near you...

The Patriots have a long and storied history of alleged cheating. Now there is speculation they’ve done it again.

Bob Kravitz of WTHR TV in Indianapolis, tweeted that a league source told him that the Patriots’ deflated footballs during New England’s rout of the Colts in the AFC Championship Game.

“The NFL is investigating the possibility,” Kravitz tweeted.
If the accusations are proven true, it would affect the outcome of the game, but the Patriots could lose draft picks, Kravitz was told.

LINK (and FWIW, I think that last quote left out one very important word that should have been between the words "would" and "affect")
 
Yeah Yahoo is also reporting that. Calling it Deflate-Gate

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/deflate-gate--report--patriots-being-investigated-for-deflated-footballs-062844133.html

Deflate-gate? Report: Patriots being investigated for using deflated footballs

The NFL will investigate the possibility that the New England Patriots deflated footballs during the AFC championship game, which they won 45-7 over the Indianapolis Colts, according to Bob Kravitz of WTHR.com.

It rained constantly on Sunday in Foxborough, Mass., which made gripping the ball challenging. Obviously, a less-inflated ball is easier to grip than a fully inflated one.

The league has guidelines on how much pressure the ball must have - between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch, weighing between 14 and 15 ounces.

Kravitz says the fine could be a stiff one if the Patriots are found guilty.

There was a delay before the third-quarter-opening kickoff that might have included game officials investigating the balls the Patriots were using.
 
Part of Belicheck's "genius" is that he's always looking for ways to push the limits of rules...These last few games with allegations of cheating are no exception....the guy just goes over the rule book with a fine tooth comb every offseason looking for advantages...
 
Part of Belicheck's "genius" is that he's always looking for ways to push the limits of rules...These last few games with allegations of cheating are no exception....the guy just goes over the rule book with a fine tooth comb every offseason looking for advantages...

Maybe if people would stop whining and crying about what BB does to find advantages, they should demand that their HC of their teams find those advantages as well. I'm impressed by the way that BB finds ways to outsmart teams like that.
 
Smart, but refs need to announce all ineligible receivers before they set the ball. They failed on that, and while I agree it's rather smart I do believe it does take something away from the game.

Much like college, where players line up and then the coaches start changing plays from the sideline, I really hope soon that they allow the players to play, instead of the coaches playing from the sideline.
 
Smart, but refs need to announce all ineligible receivers before they set the ball. They failed on that, and while I agree it's rather smart I do believe it does take something away from the game.

Much like college, where players line up and then the coaches start changing plays from the sideline, I really hope soon that they allow the players to play, instead of the coaches playing from the sideline.

Well look at all of the changes Manning used to make all of those years on the Colts. I used to sit there dumbfounded as to how the refs allowed him to move players around with this audible adjustments on the line. It was obviously legal, but the Colts used to take advantage all of the time.
 
I thought it was some cheap BS.

To me, this is the same as a no-huddle offense trying to sub players in and out, but without giving the defense time to sub as well. It was a cheap tactic to get an unfair advantage and had a rule created to stop it. See rule 5-2-10.

This ineligible receiver business is also a cheap tactic to get an unfair advantage and I can only imagine a rule will be put in place for this as well.

A 5'10" burner RB and a 6"5 TE are both in the game, you have to assign a defender to cover the one that is not going to declare as ineligible. Good luck with that.
 
I thought it was some cheap BS.


A 5'10" burner RB and a 6"5 TE are both in the game, you have to assign a defender to cover the one that is not going to declare as ineligible. Good luck with that.

You have to cover them both. Even though the one declares himself inelligible, he is still eligible to receive a backwards pass, or even a hand off on a reverse. He just can't run past the LOS before the ball is thrown (without blocking someone) & he can't receive a forward pass.
 
You have to cover them both. Even though the one declares himself inelligible, he is still eligible to receive a backwards pass, or even a hand off on a reverse. He just can't run past the LOS before the ball is thrown (without blocking someone) & he can't receive a forward pass.

I was under the impression that if an eligible number declares himself that he is ineligible then he cannot catch a pass period.
 
You have to cover them both. Even though the one declares himself inelligible, he is still eligible to receive a backwards pass, or even a hand off on a reverse. He just can't run past the LOS before the ball is thrown (without blocking someone) & he can't receive a forward pass.

The coverage is entirely different.
 
The coverage is entirely different.

True.

Some people think just because the guy declares himself ineligible that you don't have to cover him at all & that's not the case according to these guys:

Vereen runs backwards, because as a declared ineligible receiver, he cannot catch the ball unless it's a backward pass. The Ravens knew this before the play, but were so conditioned to seeing Vereen on screens or passes in the flat. (Vereen also keeps his hands up to sell it.) That's why linebacker C.J. Mosley gives him distance but still plays over him in zone.


& if he can catch a backwards pass, I'd imagine he could take a backwards pitch on a reverse.

Puts a lot of pressure on the defense.
 
Teams at all levels have been running this kind of stuff for years, in some cases over a decade. Mostly at the high school level because defenses get coached up better at each level and figure out ways to stop it.

The Patriots are just the first team in the NFL to do it as more than just a one time trick play.

You can always tell who is eligible based on the offensive alignment anyway. It's easy to see if you know the rules. The end man on the line of scrimmage is always eligible, and anybody in between the two ends is ineligible. Anybody lined up off the line of scrimmage is eligible.

It is up to the coaches to make sure the players know how to read the alignment and understand what it means, regardless of who is wearing what number. By the time they get to the NFL they should know this. It's not like the offensive players can just stand wherever they want. There is a strict number of players who have to be on the line, and thus ineligible.

I don't feel sorry for any team that fails to defend this and then cries about unfair. I don't hear people call a double pass or a flea flicker unfair, and I certainly don't remember anyone ever complaining about the fumblerooski, which is technically just a handoff to a lineman.

I'm a defensive guy, so I have a lot to complain about in regards to the rule changes the NFL has made recently. But it's not the job of the offense to make sure that the defense knows how to defend them.
 
You can always tell who is eligible based on the offensive alignment anyway. It's easy to see if you know the rules. The end man on the line of scrimmage is always eligible, and anybody in between the two ends is ineligible. Anybody lined up off the line of scrimmage is eligible.

It is up to the coaches to make sure the players know how to read the alignment and understand what it means, regardless of who is wearing what number. By the time they get to the NFL they should know this. It's not like the offensive players can just stand wherever they want. There is a strict number of players who have to be on the line, and thus ineligible.

I know you're not attempting to give us an all inclusive view of the rules, but based just on what you said, look at these pictures. Shane Vareen is ineligible, lined up in the slot on the bottom.

iqudvj0ipvfpja8qh8xq.png


That's what causes the confusion.. & like I said, he still needs to be covered.

zvmnmv0jvo1pcpjiy1d8.png
 
This is the Emory & Henry formation. It's been used by colleges and NFL teams since at least the 70s. It's completely legal and nobody has ever complained about it. The only difference is that it is very rarely seen, as opposed to what NE has been doing recently. The only reason people are complaining about NE's formation is because NE keeps running it. If they had just run a one time trick play nobody would care.

Screen_Shot_2014-10-10_at_12.27.29_AM.0.png


That LT at the bottom has the same rules as Vereen does in NE's formation. And as long as Vereen declares ineligible and lines up correctly there is no difference.
 
This is the Emory & Henry formation. It's been used by colleges and NFL teams since at least the 70s. It's completely legal and nobody has ever complained about it. The only difference is very rarely seen, as opposed to what NE has been doing recently.

[IMGwidthsize=250]https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/57yLk7glAC-pyERq0g8Wozgb4N4=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2342640/Screen_Shot_2014-10-10_at_12.27.29_AM.0.png[/IMG]

I think the fundamental difference here is that they are designating "eligible" numbers "ineligible" That's where the rub is & that's what's causing the confusion. If the RT & LT are still ineligble, they pose no threat out in the flats.

Declaring Shane Vareen ineligible & he's still eligible to catch a backwards pass or reverse is different than putting a big OT out on the wings.
 
I think the fundamental difference here is that they are designating "eligible" numbers "ineligible" That's where the rub is & that's what's causing the confusion. If the RT & LT are still ineligble, they pose no threat out in the flats.

Declaring Shane Vareen ineligible & he's still eligible to catch a backwards pass or reverse is different than putting a big OT out on the wings.

The LT could still run back and catch a backwards pass in that formation. Teams just aren't afraid of him doing so.

The only reason Vereen is being treated differently than that OT is because of his athleticism. It has nothing to do with what number he wears, because he declared ineligible so the defense already knows he can't go downfield.
 
The only reason Vereen is being treated differently than that OT is because of his athleticism. It has nothing to do with what number he wears, because he declared ineligible so the defense already knows he can't go downfield.

It does have to do with the number because one has to be announced and the other doesn't. That's Harbaugh's complaint, that the announcement wasn't done correctly.
 
It does have to do with the number because one has to be announced and the other doesn't. That's Harbaugh's complaint, that the announcement wasn't done correctly.

I understand why Harbaugh would be upset about the announcement, but my argument against that would be that you can clearly see that Vereen is lined up on the line and he's covered. The coaches can see that from the sideline and the players can see it on the field.

I've coached against formations like this multiple times and you just have to teach your players to understand the rules of eligibility. Probably the biggest difference is that most players in the NFL haven't seen something like this since they were in high school and hesitate to react to it, but that doesn't make it illegal.
 
The LT could still run back and catch a backwards pass in that formation. Teams just aren't afraid of him doing so.

Exactly.

The only reason Vereen is being treated differently than that OT is because of his athleticism. It has nothing to do with what number he wears, because he declared ineligible so the defense already knows he can't go downfield.

Correct. So he still needs to be covered.

I do agree the defense has to cover the eligible receivers as well. All we're saying is that this is confusing. Especially in the Patriots hurry up offense. Technically it's no different than the LB covering Vareen from the backfield & he trickles out into the flat. If they're playing man, Baltimore needed to bring a safety down to man up on the other TE.
 
I don't see the big deal here. A defense can overload one side of the line, or can have one man with his hand on the ground with everyone else standing, or have all 11 on the LOS, or nobody on the line, run twist and stunts, show jailbreak blitz and pull back, delay blitzes, drop LBs into coverage, drop DL into coverage, all kinds of things to try and confuse the offense. How is that any different? And the defense doesn't have to declare anybody.

Misleading, misdirecting, that's the name of the game.

It's just a big deal to people now because no one's seen much of what Belichick is doing. And it's Belichick, so they automatically assume he must be cheating.
 
Maybe Dungy is reading the rule book more than Belichick.

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

Dungy believes the officials missed a pair of penalties with this maneuver during the postseason.

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”

The officials also missed a penalty in the game against the Colts, according to Dungy.

“[Nate] Solder reported as eligible correctly but [receiver Brandon] LaFell lined up on the line of scrimmage as if Solder was a tackle,” Dungy said. “There should have been a penalty for illegal formation. But it happened too fast for the officials.”

Link

Casts a new light on "it was perfectly legal."
 
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belichick is the master. it's becoming a question of whether he's a master of the game, or a master of what he can get away with. and how long he's gotten away with it.
 
Maybe Dungy is reading the rule book more than Belichick.



Link

Casts a new light on "it was perfectly legal."

Well hopefully the referee crew for the Super Bowl is studying the rule book & getting ready for these formations & procedures.
 
Maybe Dungy is reading the rule book more than Belichick.



Link

Casts a new light on "it was perfectly legal."

I actually missed that with Vereen. Dungy is right. He cannot be ineligible on one play and then eligible on the next. I didn't notice that when I watched the game.

The NFL could fix the speed issue by making a rule in the offseason that changes to eligibility should be treated the same as substitutions. The defense must be given a set amount of time to react to the change.

No huddle offenses have been pushing the boundaries of the rule book for years. In fact, this type of offense is the exact reason why defenses are now allowed to match substitutions.

My argument has been that what NE is doing is not against NFL rules. I still stand by that. But I do think that there is a definite intent to deceive.
 
The Patriots take everything to the extreme and look for any competitive edge they can get. You would think a team with one of the all-time greats at quarterback could simply trust their talent to win games? They were good enough to play in six Super Bowls in the Belichick and Brady era, winning three of them and maybe four.

They were good enough to have a 16-0 regular-season record and many more 11+ win seasons. But yet they still have to break the rules and find new ways to disrespect the integrity of the game. I hope the Seattle Seahawks win back-to-back Super Bowls so we can have a new dynasty in the making. The Patriots will be old news. I'm sick of hearing about those cheaters. I hope the NFL takes away their first-round draft pick for the next ten years. They deserve a steep penalty. Taking away first-round picks for ten years would hit them hard and teach them a lesson.
 
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