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Old 08-01-2005   #21
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Here is the question of the day though. Would you (if you were david), who have been getting hammered for the last 3 years by a poor o-line, and his wife has been spit/spilled upon want to re-sign here? He could go ANYWHERE in this league (who has a decent o-line) and sign for big money there too. My prediction. : Sorry folks, but just what I would do, even though I love my Texans, IF I got nailed by ANOTHER 50+ sack this year. I would bail next year. Reasons, I am getting beat up badly early (reduces his wear in the future, I could sign elsewhere Easily for probably a larger contract, and I would have a O-line - since they havent made ANY decent changes in personel to protect me this year). Plus, any teams fans stupid enough to spit/spill upon a person wife dont deserve me. I much as I think we could be a huge force to reckon with this year, We are going to lose a important member because of not protecting him.
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Old 08-01-2005   #22
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Carr isn't a free agent.
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Old 08-01-2005   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Carr isn't a free agent.
Oh.... I guess I dont know how it works. I thought this year or next, he was on extension of some sort where he could drop out of the contract if he desired. I will admit I dont know much about how that works. Can you please enlighting.
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Old 08-01-2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dime
No... what is Unbelievable is when someone starts a post asking questions and tending to see a few problem areas that a player needs to work on. All the sudden, its bashing people. Why can people make small negitive comments around here from things they see and are concerned about concerning any player before people start taking it poorly, and yelling 'troll'. Bashing is coming and starting the fire threads (my oponion) or majorly insulting them. Any one should be able to post this oponion without earning a bash badge.
RANT On Dime man!

Couldnt agree more Dime - How about being a fan without the "Flame' to back up your point folks? How about we let just the football talk be football talk and we leave the sniping and backbiting comments for other boards? Pointed this one out the other day on another thread - To me it's downright disgusting how rude and insensitive and disrespectful some people on this board are - and IMO there is no reason to be that way yet some people feel they cant "Express Themselves" any other way which to me is an even bigger shame.

Yet hop over to the Tailgate section and it's like a Night and Day switch gets flipped - All of the respectful - party folks who enjoy the games and talk all together and party and have fun.

I think I know where a majority of my time will be spent on the boards from now on - The folks over in the tailgating section!!

Back to the TOPIC of FOOTBALL: Carr's coaching and progression has been a little more mechanical than I would have liked to have seen. He was a prolific passer in college - I would really like to see the offense utilize more of that this year and help him get back to that palce where he can use his arm and intellect alot more to beat teams this year with.

'This year the kid gloves come off - for everybody - Everyone will be scrutinized fro mthe Front office to every player on the field'

It's contract year for more than one person on this team and could be the end of the line for players like Hollings, Joppru, Symons, and others if they dont represent this year better than any other before. Joppru is allready back on the IR - so he's out and we will see if the staff gives him a 4th chance on the roster next year or if he is cut outright for being PuP. David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come. I for one hope Carr lights a fire under the team and leads em to a great year ahead.
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Old 08-01-2005   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U4ikrob
RANT On Dime man!

Couldnt agree more Dime - How about being a fan without the "Flame' to back up your point folks? How about we let just the football talk be football talk and we leave the sniping and backbiting comments for other boards? Pointed this one out the other day on another thread - To me it's downright disgusting how rude and insensitive and disrespectful some people on this board are - and IMO there is no reason to be that way yet some people feel they cant "Express Themselves" any other way which to me is an even bigger shame.

Yet hop over to the Tailgate section and it's like a Night and DAy switch gets flipped - All of the respectful - party folks who enjoy the games and talk all together and party and have fun.

I think I know where a majority of my time will be spent on the boards from now on - The folks over here in the tailgating section!!

Back to the TOPIC of FOOTBALL: Carr's progression has been a little more methodical than I personally would have liked, but has made decent progress up till now. But as I stated in other threads and also seems is repeated by several other major news sources now - whom all seem to agree with the point

'This year the kid gloves come off - for everybody - Everyone will be scrutinized fro mthe Front office to every player on the field'

It's contract year for more than one person on this team and could be the end of the line for players like Hollings, Joppru, Symons, and others if they dont represent this year better than any other before. David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come. I for one hope Carr lights a fire under the team and leads em to a great year ahead.
Hehehe.. people are nice in the tailgate board because if they were rude there, they might get thier behind kicked one day (kidding, only kidding)
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Old 08-01-2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
He's in the process of getting a bigtime contract extension so he needs to step it up as much or more than anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U4ikrob
David will have to look at this year being the year that defines his salary for the next 5 years or maybe even his career to come.
That's why I think even though his O-line will probably be average (although I really hope it's better than that), he will put up good numbers. He has to be giving extra effort trying to show what he can be capable of, whether he wants to stay here or be playing for someone else. He has to grab people's attention.
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Old 08-01-2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dime
Oh.... I guess I dont know how it works. I thought this year or next, he was on extension of some sort where he could drop out of the contract if he desired. I will admit I dont know much about how that works. Can you please enlighting.
Carr is pretty much tied up till 2008. I can't see a scenario where the Texans don't pick up his option and that is the only way he can get out before 2008.
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Old 08-02-2005   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Carr is pretty much tied up till 2008. I can't see a scenario where the Texans don't pick up his option and that is the only way he can get out before 2008.
I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too. His career is only so long in the league and every year of that kind of beating is just taking more and more time off his play clock IMO.

I'm not so sure that is the "Only" scenario Carr could get out of his contract with. Realistically there are not many options if he wants out, but there are a few. Any player can "Refuse" to play to the terms of the contract and be fired for non performance. He can be released as well as the contract can be voided at any time by the employer and paid out. There are also buyout clauses on the players side too in a lot of deals. I dont have David's contract in front of me, but I would be willing to bet there is defintly terms in there for some of these thigns to be covered in case of eventualities on either side. It's funny how terms of a contract work when you want out of a deal. My info tells me he can also be traded as an RFA just like Edge and Henry and Alexander were trying to do this year. When he becomes an RFA, I'm fully expecting the Texans to put up a pretty close to MAX dollar contract figure to keep him here. But as a player he always has the right to refuse the deal and not re-sign here and request to be traded as an RFA. The team can refuse to trade him of course, but then he would most likely sit/wait it out and become a UFA in 08 and go anywhere he wants.
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Old 08-02-2005   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U4ikrob
I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too. His career is only so long in the league and every year of that kind of beating is just taking more and more time off his play clock IMO.

I'm not so sure that is the "Only" scenario Carr could get out of his contract with. Realistically there are not many options if he wants out, but there are a few. Any player can "Refuse" to play to the terms of the contract and be fired for non performance. He can be released as well as the contract can be voided at any time by the employer and paid out. There are also buyout clauses on the players side too in a lot of deals. I dont have David's contract in front of me, but I would be willing to bet there is defintly terms in there for some of these thigns to be covered in case of eventualities on either side. It's funny how terms of a contract work when you want out of a deal. My info tells me he can also be traded as an RFA just like Edge and Henry and Alexander were trying to do this year. When he becomes an RFA, I'm fully expecting the Texans to put up a pretty close to MAX dollar contract figure to keep him here. But as a player he always has the right to refuse the deal and not re-sign here and request to be traded as an RFA. The team can refuse to trade him of course, but then he would most likely sit/wait it out and become a UFA in 08 and go anywhere he wants.
Last year, one of the questions I remember him answering was 'they had better draft me a o-lineman' when he was asked what he wanted in the draft. Of course, they didnt. If he end up on his backside in sacks this year again in the 50+ range, or worse, hurt from a sack. I can see him (I would from my personal health) not wanting to play here. promises have been made for the last 2 years to get better.. year before last, it was. Last year it got worse. If it gets even worse, oh... I dont want to think about it.
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Old 08-02-2005   #30
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Well technically speaking they did draft him an O-line guy this year in the center Hogden, but most likely wont see much PT this year as he's still to green to man the middle yet. I'm hoping when I get out to TC this week and over the next few weeks to see some better results on the Practice field from the line. I feel they should have most of the line changes and the final roster pretty much settled for the Offense and Defense by the Dallas game. I will be attending that game up in big D with my Aunt & uncle and will give a full team and squad ranking/review afterwards

More on the fight in TC : TJ must have a great sense of humor. After reading the blurb above I got an impression of him being a rookie pain in camp. But after reading more of the article I think him and Brown were just having some good competitive fun and joking around. I hope it sparks good competition on both the O & D lines this year. Good to see him getting the rookie biz from the vets and taking it like a man too.


more from "Fists of Fury" in the chronicle - Travis Johnson on the fight in TC:

"It's just getting hot out here, and you know how fat guys are," Johnson said laughing. [Brown] "He was telling me something about how he was going to take my last piece of chicken."
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Old 08-02-2005   #31
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I don't think David's going anywhere. He has already relocated his entire family here and likes it here. Also if Seth Wand doesn't prove himself this year than we will draft our Franchise LT in next years draft, which is very deep at that position. I also expect next years draft to be very offensive sided seeing how we don't need to many more pieces on defense. I could see us taking a LT, WR (if no one steps up and claims the #2 spot), and a TE, all early in next years draft.
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Old 08-02-2005   #32
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Just some thoughts off the top -

I would agree C-Bomb - I dont "Think" David will be going anywhere next year either. DC, his wife and son have been here for almost 4 years now and have established some roots for sure. But just like with this years shuffle of players - the message got sent to everyone that this is a business too. David still has to think about himself when it comes to the business aspect of the league too and if he would not be better off signing with another team and providing for his family in the future in case he does get injured. Hypothetically speaking only - If the Texans were to offer David a 5 year max dollar contract and another team stepped up with a 7-year deal for more money than the texans were willing to match - which choice would you pick?

The business side cant be ignored here.

Houston has to realize the teams little improvement on upgrading the line this year once again sends a message to David and his wife too.

Worst case scenario - That means thinking of another year of possibly having to stare at a 300+ pound guy trying to maul him around for 4 months and he maybe gets injured this time - for a while

I dunno that if I were in his shoes I would be so "Enthusiastic" when it came around for signing again with a team that did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row until it came time for a new deal. IMO if it were me that would not spell out a whole lot of dedication to protecting me for the future. It would show yet once again a last second mentality by the team to address a need position from day one. Also after the last game of the season with Cleveland and how some fans treated his wife and kids after the game you have to wonder if that wont play into things at signing time esp if the line does bad all year long again.
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Old 08-02-2005   #33
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First of all I think its a little premature to just assume this line is going to give up 40 something sacks again. Seth Wand is a year older and so are the other young lineman that play on the line. Plus with the timing routes and new protection schemes, I expect our sacks to fall somewhat. I'm predicting the Sack range to be in the high 20's, low 30's. One thing is for sure, the line can't get any worse and I think Carr has already gone through the worst of it. Also I really don't think one Dumb fan (I really don't know why we keep referring to this guy as a fan, no FAN would of done that) is going to play into his decesion if hes going to stay or not. After that incident there was a public outcry of support that touched his family so much his own mom got on this board and thanked us all. (That was very cool btw)
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Old 08-02-2005   #34
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You can not certainly say that the Texans org. has done nothing to improve the line for Carr for 4 years in a row. They brought Wade here. Drafting Wand could be considered an attempt to improve the line. Now, bringing a vet OT in Riley to compete and push Wand to improve is another attempt. What about all we are hearing of C-Pitts taking reps at LT to see if he is a better fit there. I would say that is another attempt right there. We did take a center in the draft too. Although he is a late rounder, mgt. may hope for him to quickly become an upgrade to "push me back" (might not happen this year, atleast not at the start of the season) but that to is an attempt. what about the new scheme the Texans are learning. that can definitely be viewed as an attempt to help protect Carr from punishment.

I say, all in all, the staff has done a whole lot to (attempt) help Carr with protection. Ok, so they did not spend a ton of money on a high draft pick who might or moght not grasp the system this year. If next years draft will be so thick with OT's then maybe it is best to snagg one next year if the much more competitive than before candidates cannot step up this season. With the fact that competion forces players to step up or say good bye, i am compelled to believe one of those guys we have will indeed step up.

Just dont say they have done nothing to solve this problem, when they have indeed made plenty of attemps, and they still are trying to do so.
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Old 08-02-2005   #35
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Until the o-line can prove otherwise, we must trust the oline to think up new schemes. And we must think the other defenses of the league have devised way around it. If the sacks hit the number 40, then that is way to much in my book. IF the o-line can defend this year, awesome. But if they cant, we have to imagine what is going through the head of Carr. If I am the sack dummy for some teams (which hurts), I would be just biding my time till I can get where I aint one.

On a personal note. I have a way to train the oline to block better.

For every sack on a QB they incur, they get to stand there with the ball in throwing position and have a D-line sack them to show them what David feels. However this wont be done, but it would give them a idea why david is having to run out of the pocket so much. Ok.. that was the last thing about the oline.

any more and I would be
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Old 08-02-2005   #36
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Originally Posted by thetexanator
ok guys, im one of those that doesnt give Carr a lot of credit. Im trying to figure out why this guy rubs me the wrong way and i think its because he hasnt lived up to my expectations.
its the hair


that whole thing about not getting a hair cut until the Texans win two in a row was fine, but when the time came to get back to his early crew cut look it never came. there he was waiting for a showdown with Brett Farve in some anonymous saloon somewhere in Texas, tilting his head back giving his long locks a shake......please. ok I'm jealous
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Old 08-02-2005   #37
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Unless Carr has his worst year as a Pro this season, odds are he'll be signed to an extension in the offseason or possibly the next. The only way Carr leaves the Texans is if the Texans don't think he's the best QB on the team. QBs rarely leave the team that drafts them unless they decide to let them go. IMO of course.

U4ikrob: "did little to improve the situation for 4 years in a row"?
I suppose some fans think that quality LTs are common in the FA market. Well...they aren't. We made Boselli our first X-Draft pick in the hopes he would be the man to fill the position for years to come. We made a futile attempt to get Pace here but we knew where that was going anyways. We couldn't have signed Pace or Walter Jones in the past without coughing up a top-dollar contact and 2 first round draft picks. Most of the other LTs in the market were average at best and we already have an average LT in Pitts. We could have drafted a LT instead of Robinson or Johnson I suppose. Would any of you give them up for Jordan Gross or Shawn Andrews (who was a RT anyways)?

We've also attempted to get better on the O-Line each season with McKinney signed as a FA before the first season (might not be the best C in football but they did try), Weigart for the 2nd season, Wade last season and Riley this season.

They have changed blocking schemes and have tried more quick drops for Carr (which actually worked well in 2003 at protecting Carr). Carr himself wanted to "open up the playbook" last season which did fine until defenses figured out how to stop it by midseason. His performance went down and the sack total went up at the same time. We're reverting back to the quick drops and more timing patterns in an effort to lower the sack total.

Carr causes some of the sacks as well. He's not the biggest reason for the sacks but he's definately a factor.

Bottom line is the Texans staff HAVE tried to improve the line and sack count without completely ruining the teams future like Jaxs and Car did. We are still a team that has never has a .500 season. FAs come here for a lot of reason, but it's obviously not to play on a guaranteed winner (READ: Patriots). We have to rely on the draft and mostly 2nd tier FAs to build our team. We've even had to pay more than market value for players like Wade and R Smith. Top tier FAs will become interested in us once we begin to show we can win.

I like Carr and have had a lot of patience watching him develop. He isn't Brady, Farve or Manning but would you trade him for any QB playing for Miami, Buffalo, Cincinatti, Detroit, Baltimore, Arizona, San Francisco or Washington? I could go on with more teams but the point is made hopefully.
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Old 08-02-2005   #38
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Looks like a lot of my points were covered while I wrote that post. hehe
That's what happens when you post while working.
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Old 08-02-2005   #39
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Originally Posted by U4ikrob
I dont want this to happen - but as mentioned in other threads - if Carr has another 40-50 sack season this year I could see him not wanting to re-sign here too.
Carr is signed to 2008. The only way he won't be here is if the Texans don't pick up his option. There is no Carr escape clause that I have seen anywhere.
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Old 08-02-2005   #40
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IS he an RFA in 2008 or a UFA in 2008 Vinny? So is there No Re-letting clause in his contract Vinny? Have you seen the terms of the deal? I ask because its a pretty standard option on most contracts in contract law. Also - can he not "Hold-out" ala Alker/Owens/Moss etc.. for a new deal or ask to be traded??

Carr - Jman and Exas -

First off - For the record I am a David Carr and Texan fan - I think the guy has major stones for the job he has done thus far and for having the tenacity and mental toughness to still perform well under duress for the most part for 3 years in a row.

Whoa GUYS - I'm still trying to figure out how you guys got those poitns out of what I said - I guess all my careful wording of "IF" these things happen and "My thinking" and "IF I were in David's shoes" and Hypothetically speaking" just got removed on your way to post up.

Please "Re-Read" my post and edit yours accordingly - Thanks. No -bashing of the posts from me here.

I was talking mainly about David's contract and if we like him or why not and other points. My points were more on the "What is David's personal view of the team and his career along with the biz aspects of football." type of take The O-line is part of that talk for sure, but r." I wasnt implying, saying or stating anything else guys.

I was putting a" What IF" these things happen type of point out there - What would you do if you were in his shoes?

You can talk about the line over on the O-line threads all day long guys - Ive got plenty of fodder over there for you to flame on as folsk seem apt to do.

Trades : I was talking contracts in a general sense - IF the Texans offer 5/yr Max and lets say the "Dolphins", "Denver" or the "Bucs" offer a better deal of 7/years almost max money because they have such a huge need for a QB and promise a signing bonus of 10+million more. The 7 year deal could have a bigger up front bonus, but you may not play out the whole contract before having to renegotiate a new deal. The 5 year deal could be more solid, but offer's little bonus money and more of a measured salary that escalates.

Which deal would you take? There are a lot of variables that can be thrown in on deals to sweeten them to anyone. I also put out that "IF" I were in David's shoes it might be a hard choice to make based on several factors from above including his family's feelings.

A few more negative What if's on Topic would be -

How do you think fans will react this year to David if he has a few bad games to start off with?
Will there be more stuff thrown at his family on the way out after a bad game?
More Boo birds this year?
More heckling of the team and QB?
Chants of Banks or Ragone from the crowd when DC throws a pick?
Will the staff start questioning David's decision making if we go 0-3 to start the year?

Those points are easily turned around too positive also -

Do you think fans will chant Pro-Bowl for David if we go 3-0 to start?
Do you think fans will go out of there way this year to be more sensitive to David and other players families at the stadium?
Do you think Ragone will make third string if he continues to light things up in pre-season?
Do you think the staff will be more inclined to open up the offense and let David audible more on the line this year if we do well early on?
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Last edited by U4ikrob; 08-02-2005 at 02:41 PM.
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