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Old 07-14-2014   #161
Mr teX
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Instead of debating with me do this simple exercise and see for yourself. Make a list of Texans players lost in years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014. Now make a list of the players that were signed to replace those respective lost players in each of those years.

Now make the same list for the Colts in years 2012, 2013 and 2014 and the same list for the Jaguars in 2014.

Compare the list. If you're drinking Kool Aid then you're only likely to see that the Texans are far superior in every category and every comparison. If you can put the kool aid down for a moment and are capable of making an objective analysis, then your findings will be completely different.

You'll likely find that the 2011 Texans were the best team (bought and paid for) and the 2012 team was worse than the 2011 team and the 2013 team was worse than the 2012 team and the 2014 team will be worse than the 2013 team.

You'll notice from the Colts list that the 2012 Colts team was much better than the 2011 Colts team and 2013 Colts team was much better than 2012 team and the 2014 Colts team is much better than the 2013 team.

From the Jaguar list you'll notice 2014 is a much much better team than their 2013 team.

The common denominator is the Colts and Jaguars cleaned house, dumped all bad contracts and made their salary cap work for the betterment of the team instead of against them. In each case with each list, w/o kool aid, it is easy to see where the Colts and Jags are taking BIG steps forward and how the Texans have consistently taken steps backwards each of these last 3 years. It doesn't take long to find the cellar with a few consistent years of negative yardage.
Lol & you accuse me of being a kool-aid drinker? You wanna know what else those teams have in common? They both bottomed out....they both changed coaches and qbs.....pretty much like we did this past year.

The colts were terrible in 2011 & had Andrew Luck fall in their lap...Only after Manning & Irsay both agreed to move on from each other. If Manning's prognosis was even a little bit better, They probably still draft luck as the heir apparent, but more importantly, he stays and the money he was owed is still on the books and they too likely still have cap issues. The jags have been terrible for years and it still remains to be seen what's gonna happen with them..despite how rosey of a picture you're painting.

So it was more than just their handling of the cap....It was a bit of luck...literally and the variables i listed above.

Apart from that, there's lots of assumptions in all of what you wrote that i don't really even wanna touch...Can't see how you can emphatically say the 2011 team was better than the 2012 team...especially when you take into account all the variables. There chance to reach a SB probably was better, but that had more to do with the schedule and how everything fell that year than the team's talent. The 2012 team as a matter of fact borne out by their regular season record was at least as good or better.

Furthermore, your exercise is silly b/c what the Colts and Jags did has little to do with what we did.
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Old 07-14-2014   #162
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Houston bought and paid for a team in 2011.

2011 and 2012 were very good seasons. 2013 just came off the rails. This offseason they cleared the books for 2015. And your judging before 2014 & 2015 seasons happen, especially with a possibly huge cap space to work with in 2015. Like I said 11' was their best team and w/ each successive year they declined.

How is this different than what the Colts did after they released Manning? They cleared the books and got the #1 pick. And have been filling in their roster with the extra cap space each season. The difference is the Colts had $40 mil to spend 2013 and $30 mil to spend in 2014 and the Texans were broke in 2013 and have $8 mil in 2014. A BIG difference of $60 mil + I'd say, that's a lot of good players DIFFERENCE.

Houston paid for some free agents in 2011 and 2013...didn't work out...so they are now moving on. They have cleared the books just like Indy did a few years ago. No they haven't Jags had over $40+ mil to spend. Unless Texans get rid of AJ's contract and Foster's $8 mil+ per year contract Texans aren't in same ball park.

The 2014 draft was a great step in the right direction. The real test will be what is done in the offseason after the 2014 season.
Troy you're drinking kool aid, it has obstructed your objectivity view. You didn't do the simple exercise I requested, not enough time to complete. Answers above BOLD Please put the kool aid down and complete the exercise.
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Old 07-14-2014   #163
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Troy you're drinking kool aid, it has obstructed your objectivity view. You didn't do the simple exercise I requested, not enough time to complete. Answers above BOLD Please put the kool aid down and complete the exercise.
I already had my thoughts on such a list, which is why I asked you. If you didn't want to answer the question, then just say so. It's not going to hurt my feelings. I was just curious what your thoughts were to list some examples. But you replied back with your own request.

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Can you provide examples of players lost that Houston did not replace with comparable value? Just curious. I have my own thoughts towards this specific question but curious on yours.
You mention the amount of cap space that Indy had in 2013 and 2014...but you failed to mention 2012. The Colts carried $38 million dollars in dead money in 2012; which is the same move Houston is doing this year with almost $18 million in dead money for 2014. The 2015 cap space for Houston is projected to be similar to what Indy had in 2013 if not more.

Houston cannot clear the books and have cap space in one off-season. Indy didn't do that either, they had no cap space in 2012, just like Houston this year.

I would go as far to say the 2012 team was just as good as the 2011 team. The win/loss record can speak to that.

No koolaid here sir, I didn't call you a hater so please don't label me as a kool-aid drinker. If (big if I know) Savage pans out in 2015. You're looking at a team with a good QB making very little money and a ton of cap space to spend on other positions. Similar to what Indy, SF, and Seattle has done.
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Old 07-14-2014   #164
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Lol & you accuse me of being a kool-aid drinker? You wanna know what else those teams have in common? They both bottomed out....they both changed coaches and qbs.....pretty much like we did this past year.

The colts were terrible in 2011 & had Andrew Luck fall in their lap...Only after Manning & Irsay both agreed to move on from each other. If Manning's prognosis was even a little bit better, They probably still draft luck as the heir apparent, but more importantly, he stays and the money he was owed is still on the books and they too likely still have cap issues. The jags have been terrible for years and it still remains to be seen what's gonna happen with them..despite how rosey of a picture you're painting.

So it was more than just their handling of the cap....It was a bit of luck...literally and the variables i listed above.

Apart from that, there's lots of assumptions in all of what you wrote that i don't really even wanna touch...Can't see how you can emphatically say the 2011 team was better than the 2012 team...especially when you take into account all the variables. There chance to reach a SB probably was better, but that had more to do with the schedule and how everything fell that year than the team's talent. The 2012 team as a matter of fact borne out by their regular season record was at least as good or better.

Furthermore, your exercise is silly b/c what the Colts and Jags did has little to do with what we did.
You didn't have time to do the exercise either, that only tells me one thing, in your mind, the Texans are Superior in every category (no comparison because you didn't do one). Like I said before (please re read if you didn't understand the first time), the Colts and the Jags, cleaned house (fired GM & HC, Jags also hired a new team Pres.), dumped all bad contracts and reorganized their salary cap to a friendly status. The Texans did not clean house, they just fired their head coach, everything else is status quo. The Texans did nothing to provide any salary cap relief w/ exception of jettisoning Schaub and their cap is somewhat still working against them. If you want to play the game, do the exercise and then we can talk further. The one bright possibility about the Texans future is for the first time in many years they may not have to borrow money from future years to pay for this year.
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Old 07-14-2014   #165
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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The difference is the Colts had $40 mil to spend 2013 and $30 mil to spend in 2014 and the Texans were broke in 2013 and have $8 mil in 2014. A BIG difference of $60 mil + I'd say, that's a lot of good players DIFFERENCE.

No they haven't Jags had over $40+ mil to spend. Unless Texans get rid of AJ's contract and Foster's $8 mil+ per year contract Texans aren't in same ball park.
The main problem with this analysis is it assumes an even starting point and that is factually incorrect. OK the Colts had $60 mil to spend (which they didn't really as you continually overlook the cost of re-signing a team's own FAs) but they spent much of that on getting up to where the Texans were already.

In these discussions you also commonly point to teams with QBs on rookie contracts and that is not apples to apples.
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Old 07-14-2014   #166
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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I already had my thoughts on such a list, which is why I asked you. If you didn't want to answer the question, then just say so. It's not going to hurt my feelings. I was just curious what your thoughts were to list some examples. But you replied back with your own request.

My post:

You mention the amount of cap space that Indy had in 2013 and 2014...but you failed to mention 2012. The Colts carried $38 million dollars in dead money in 2012; which is the same move Houston is doing this year with almost $18 million in dead money for 2014. The 2015 cap space for Houston is projected to be similar to what Indy had in 2013 if not more.

Houston cannot clear the books and have cap space in one off-season. Indy didn't do that, neither did Jacksonville.

I would go as far to say the 2012 team was just as good as the 2011 team. The win/loss record can speak to that.

No koolaid here sir, I didn't call you a hater so please don't label me as a kool-aid drinker. If (big if I know) Savage pans out in 2015. You're looking at a team with a good QB making very little money and a ton of cap space to spend on other positions. Similar to what Indy, SF, and Seattle has done.
Houston is less than 50% of Colts 2012 dead money, not really a fair or equal comparison in my book. Texans got some relief from an increased cap Colts did not. The Colts and Jags decided to clean their house and by clean house they really cleaned house, not just dust the furniture much like Texans are doing. If the Texans were to really clean house, AJ and Foster would have been gone before June 1. This way the Texans would've taken their medicine, exorcised all their demons and evils of the past, sacrificed in 2014. Then and only then, an extremely friendly salary cap would await them in 2015 to start rebuilding. As it stands now, currently, the Colts and the Jags, both, have considerably more salary cap space than the Texans to start the 2015 season. So you see, the picture is not nearly as rosy as the one you're trying to paint.
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Old 07-14-2014   #167
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Houston is less than 50% of Colts 2012 dead money, not really a fair or equal comparison in my book. Texans got some relief from an increased cap Colts did not. The Colts and Jags decided to clean their house and by clean house they really cleaned house, not just dust the furniture much like Texans are doing. If the Texans were to really clean house, AJ and Foster would have been gone before June 1. This way the Texans would've taken their medicine, exorcised all their demons and evils of the past, sacrificed in 2014. Then and only then, an extremely friendly salary cap would await them in 2015 to start rebuilding. As it stands now, currently, the Colts and the Jags, both, have considerably more salary cap space than the Texans to start the 2015 season. So you see, the picture is not nearly as rosy as the one you're trying to paint.
And I don't think it is as bad as you have painted either. While the 2015 offseason cap situation may not be "extreme friendly", it will be friendly. Much more friendly than the past few years at least. Houston will start to see the benefits of the rookie wage scale going forward. Indy will also have 32 free agents to replace in 2015 compared to Houston's 20. And could gain even more with release of Johnson, Foster, and Joseph after the 2014 season; with their potential replacements already on the roster. Houston's cap situation is trending up fast after this year no matter how you look at it.
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Old 07-14-2014   #168
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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The main problem with this analysis is it assumes an even starting point and that is factually incorrect. OK the Colts had $60 mil to spend (which they didn't really as you continually overlook the cost of re-signing a team's own FAs) but they spent much of that on getting up to where the Texans were already.

In these discussions you also commonly point to teams with QBs on rookie contracts and that is not apples to apples.
If you're $40 million under the cap, you've $40 million to spend on signing players. It doesn't matter how you slice it, you're still $40 million under the cap. And that goes a lot further than a team that is only $3 million under the cap.

You like apples...when Freeney became a free agent the Colts realized the full $19 million salary cap hit in available salary cap space the following year. When Mario became a free agent his $18 million salary came off the Texans books yet they were only able to start the 2012 season $3 million under the cap....how about them apples.
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Old 07-14-2014   #169
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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And I don't think it is as bad as you have painted either.
It can't get much worse than a 2-14 season, picking first in the draft, staring another 2-14 season in the face, a #1 pick next year and a team with some of the worst salary cap space available for the next few years. It doesn't get much worse than that.
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Old 07-14-2014   #170
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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It can't get much worse than a 2-14 season, picking first in the draft, staring another 2-14 season in the face, a #1 pick next year and a team with some of the worst salary cap space available for the next few years. It doesn't get much worse than that.
Why are you jumping to the conclusion that this is another 2-14 season team? I would be amazed if we did not win at least 6 maybe 7 games. I am not expecting this team to go 10-6 and go the playoffs, but I do expect to be better than 2-14. The cap space will be there; it won't be $60 million like Oakland, but it will be a good place to start with. I think we can both agree on that?

And sorry you quoted my post before I edited it...about 4 times .
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Old 07-14-2014   #171
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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.Can't see how you can emphatically say the 2011 team was better than the 2012 team.
Because I did the exercise, objectively. (2012 sans Winston, Ryans, Brisel, Vickers, Jones)
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Old 07-14-2014   #172
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Why are you jumping to the conclusion that this is another 2-14 season team? I would be amazed if we did not win at least 6 maybe 7 games. I am not expecting this team to go 10-6 and go the playoffs, but I do expect to be better than 2-14. The cap space will be there; it won't be $60 million like Oakland, but it will be a good place to start with. I think we can both agree on that?

And sorry you quoted my post before I edited it...about 4 times .
From my point of view this team has not done anything to get better. To the contrary IMHO they've taken several steps backwards from the team they were last year. Then again I'm not full of hope and glimmer. I kinda of see things for the way they are and not how I want them to be. To be completely honest.

When I see the Texans have some of the worst salary cap in the league I accept it for what it is. I don't try to convince myself that it's OK and everything will be fine and manufacture excuses for why having no salary cap space is a good thing. I know when you have little or no cap space and your competition has ample, you're at a distinct disadvantage. Is what it is. There for I suffer less disappointments and I'm also more right in my thinking and analysis because of my honest straight forward thinking instead of wishing and hoping. Make sense?
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Old 07-14-2014   #173
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being a Kool-aid drinker; I don't see anything wrong with trying to look on the bright side of things; I don't see anything wrong with hoping for the best.

One of the biggest and main things I always try to remember is... I have no control over what the Texans do.

I hope they make the right moves. I will try to look on the bright side of any move they make. I hope that the other teams crash and burn in epic fashions. But I don't have any power over what they do and whether it's the right thing or not.

Bob McNair owns the team. That's not changing anytime soon. I can't fire him. Bitching about him or what he does serves no purpose. On the bright side, he gave me a team I can cheer, a team that won 2 division crowns and 2 playoff games, and will hopefully do better in the future.

Rick Smith is the GM. He might not be the GM for very much longer. But that's not my decision. He's had some good drafts and he's had some stinkers, he's found some productive players in FA, and he's found some crap. Hopefully, he's given the new coaching staff something to work with and hopefully, he brought in the right coaches to get this thing turned around.

O'Brien was one of the coaches I wanted. I'm hoping he's able to get this thing going in the right direction but frankly, they could have hired Texian to be the Head Coach and I'd still be hoping he'd be able to get this thing going in the right direction. If they'd stuck with Kubiak, I would have still hoped he'd get this thing going in the right direction.

When it comes to the cap and the dead money and all that, people get way too caught up in that. The teams have a lot more wiggle room and alot more ways to create space than most us realize. The Cowboys were like $20+ million over the cap and now they have more room than we do, I think. If a team wants someone, they can find a way to pay them. The only position we needed to go after in free agency was the QB position and there weren't any good players available.

So. For me. We have this team that's going to be going to training camp in a couple of weeks. This is the starting point for a new season. I'm not expecting great things from this team because of the QB position and I don't think any of the guys in the draft or in FA would have drastically improved what we've ended up with as crappy as that is. I think we've got most of the other pieces in place to be a strong contender.

I'll be drinking the kool-aid and hoping for the best because that's what I do. And I don't see a damned thing wrong with that.
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Old 07-14-2014   #174
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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I always try to take into account that posters here could be 12-15 years old. If I didn't know better I would assume that would apply to you by the content of posts. Dadgum man, you're 51 years old and your comments are some of the most childish messages on this message board. Did you lie about your age? Do you've some degree of autism or learning disability we need to know about? If you're 12 or 15, it's OK, that's what 12 to 15 years olds do. However if you really are 51, c'mom man, upgrade your conversation to the adult level. Then again maybe you're a troll and just can't help yourself.
I always try to take into account that some posters here have vapid lives and fill the void by living vicariously through an entertainment medium. And I understand this mentality can warp a person's perspective to the point that things they have absolutely no control or influence over become ideals to defend and argue about because their self-worth is erroneously connected to it in their own minds.

But, I also always try to take into account that many posters here enjoy chatting about an entertainment medium like pro football, but, they realize it is completely meaningless because real life is out there where we can actually be a positive influence as good husbands, fathers, brothers, business owners, employees, etc. These folks realize this is nothing to take seriously and opinions are like sphincters in that everyone has one and they all stink.

Now, I do not know which group you fall into, but I know both of my feet are firmly in the second group. Disagreement of opinions about a meaningless entertainment is rarely a worthy reason to insult someone.

If this shit ain't fun, perhaps folks should reevaluate the point of it all.
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Old 07-14-2014   #175
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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If you're $40 million under the cap, you've $40 million to spend on signing players. It doesn't matter how you slice it, you're still $40 million under the cap. And that goes a lot further than a team that is only $3 million under the cap.
If one guy has a three year stockpile of groceries stored away and $10 left over and another guy has a three day supply of groceries and $100 to spend the second guy isn't a lot further just because he has more money in his pocket.
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Old 07-14-2014   #176
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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they could have hired Texian to be the Head Coach and I'd still be hoping he'd be able to get this thing going in the right direction.

The Cowboys were like $20+ million over the cap and now they have more room than we do, I think. If a team wants someone, they can find a way to pay them.

I'll be drinking the kool-aid and hoping for the best because that's what I do. And I don't see a damned thing wrong with that.
Trust me, now a days, I don't know enough about the X and Os to coach a high school team but I appreciate your support. However I have owned my own successful business if that means anything. As for the Cowboys, they too had to take several steps backwards to get under the cap. My guess is their string of 3 straight 8-8 seasons is in jeopardy, as in a losing season.

It is your prerogative to drink or not drink kool aid and I won't be drinking the kool aid because that is what I do. My only and very limited advice can be found in my signature. However I know I'm better off wishing on a star. If I had paid $700 million for my NFL franchise, I could give a rats behind and could not care less who the heck Texian is.
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Old 07-14-2014   #177
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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I always try to take into account that some posters here have vapid lives and fill the void by living vicariously through an entertainment medium. And I understand this mentality can warp a person's perspective to the point that things they have absolutely no control or influence over become ideals to defend and argue about because their self-worth is erroneously connected to it in their own minds.

But, I also always try to take into account that many posters here enjoy chatting about an entertainment medium like pro football, but, they realize it is completely meaningless because real life is out there where we can actually be a positive influence as good husbands, fathers, brothers, business owners, employees, etc. These folks realize this is nothing to take seriously and opinions are like sphincters in that everyone has one and they all stink.

Now, I do not know which group you fall into, but I know both of my feet are firmly in the second group. Disagreement of opinions about a meaningless entertainment is rarely a worthy reason to insult someone.

If this shit ain't fun, perhaps folks should reevaluate the point of it all.
Without getting into all the sanctimonious bovine manure, it was one of the very few times I have ever felt compelled in insult someone on a message board. Looking back and after further review, I still feel it was deservedly so. Although it may have been insulting to 12 and 15 year olds. I guess comparison to a gnat, flea or a fly would've been more appropriate. You act as if I went infantrycak.
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Old 07-14-2014   #178
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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Trust me, now a days, I don't know enough about the X and Os to coach a high school team but I appreciate your support.
That's why I'm here.

Quote:
However I have owned my own successful business if that means anything. As for the Cowboys, they too had to take several steps backwards to get under the cap. My guess is their string of 3 straight 8-8 seasons is in jeopardy, as in a losing season.

It is your prerogative to drink or not drink kool aid and I won't be drinking the kool aid because that is what I do.
I learned a long time ago not to be pessimistic about things I have no control over. I follow football not to have another source of aggravation, but as a source of entertainment. I'm entertained by studying the players, by studying the X's and O's, by figuring out what we're doing and why, and for the most part, I'm entertained by the games... although the previous two seasons were far more entertaining than last year's season.

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My only and very limited advice can be found in my signature.
I don't have signatures turned on so I have no idea what's in your signature.

Quote:
However I know I'm better off wishing on a star. If I had paid $700 million for my NFL franchise, I could give a rats behind and could not care less who the heck Texian is.
Exactly.
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Old 07-14-2014   #179
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

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I don't have signatures turned on so I have no idea what's in your signature.
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.

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I learned a long time ago not to be pessimistic about things I have no control over.
I don't see myself as a pessimist. I call them as I see them. I don't call them as I want them to be or hope they would be or wish they would be.
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Last edited by Texian; 07-14-2014 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 07-14-2014   #180
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Default Re: #Texans trade QB T.J. Yates to Falcons for LB Akeem Dent

I looked at what we did at the draft similar to what the oilers did in the 80's when they drafted steinkuhlar,mathews,and munchack before any flashy pick

Did we get the flashy pick this year? No. Bob is building inside out. If we can get our lines built up, then we should end able to go flashy later. Doesn't do much to go flashy when you can't stop anyone or get a crucial 3rd and 1 or control the clock when you need too
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