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Old 06-03-2014   #101
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
I never said the Colts had worse protection and worse running game than the Texans. I was responding to Herv's post about wanting to "see the guy with no protection and no running game who wins more than he loses!" I basically said that guy was Luck. Then in another post I said that if you put Schaub/Keenum on the Colts and gave the Texans Luck, the Colts would've been 2-14 and we might have won 12 games. I still stand by that, though there is no way to ever prove it. You can throw out all the stats you want about who had the better protection and run game, but the bottom line is that Luck would have made the Texans a better team last year. And I believe he could have taken them, and probably any team he played on, to the playoffs. Yes, I believe he's that good!

If you don't think Luck is that good, agree to disagree. But here's some stats to chew on comparing Luck and Manning in their first 2 years in the NFL.

Luck..8,196 yds...46 tds...27 ints...73 sacks...632 rush yds...9 tds..81.5 QBR

Manning..7,874 yds..52 tds..43 ints..36 sacks..135 rush yds..2 tds..80.95 QBR

A lot can happen between now and when Luck retires, but baring injury, I think Luck will be considered one of the greats when it's all said and done. Unfortunately for the Texans, they have to deal with him 2 times a year from now on until he leaves the Colts.
You should also compare the teams each one inherited when they came into the NFL, Mannings team was in shambles, virtually nothing on offense to work with. Luck came into a much better situation.
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Old 06-03-2014   #102
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
What you said was:



So I replied to see the 2009 Schaub. You then followed up with:



So now it went from "won more than he lost" to "he barely won more than he lost"

You went on to say:



So now you are adding who they beat as part of the scenario, even though that was not mentioned in your original question. Now your question has become 'I want to see the guy with no protection or running game who wins more than he loses, and the teams he beat must have winning records' So yes, IMO, that is moving the goal post, or tacking things on.



There were only 25 sacks because Schaub got rid of the ball quick or threw it away instead of taking a sack. He was very proficient at this in 2009. Let's not forget who the starting guards were in 2009. LG: Kasey Studdard (7521st overall since 1950) & RG: Chris White (Center playing out of position) (7979th overall since 1950) Duane Brown (Although improved from his rookie season) struggled with pass protection in 2009. Brown allowed 7 sacks, 11 hits and 35 hurries as well as giving up eight penalties. The Texans OL was ranked 13th overall that year. (Run Rank 21st, Pass Rank 16th, Penalties Rank 7th) So I disagree with your assertion that the Texans had a good OL in 2009 let alone the best Schaub had seen.



The Texans OL was ranked 2nd overall in 2010 (Run Rank 3rd, Pass Rank 4th, Penalties Rank 4th) but gave up 32 sacks that season, so where does this leave your theory about 2009 being the best OL Schaub had ever seen?

And while Schaub's season was shortened by injury in 2011 to just 10 games, the Texans OL was ranked 5th overall (Run Rank 6th, Pass Rank 4th, Penalties Rank 21st) and only gave up 16 sacks which means the 2010 and 2011 OL were leaps and bounds better than the 2009 OL. Heck even the 2012 OL was better than the 2009 OL.

In regard to your claims about RB's. The Texans finished 30th in rushing in 2009. Yet you want to cherry pick two games out where you say Schaub had "outstanding RB's behind him for 2 of his wins." but you fail to backup your claims or even consider who those two teams were and what their D was ranked against the run, but earlier you wanted to discount the wins based on their win/loss record.

MIA: 18th against the run (114.7 ypg) Foster gained 97 yds (-17.7)
NE: 13th against the run (110.5 ypg) Foster gained 119 yds (+8.5)

And as you pointed out, "a disinterested New England team with jack **** to play for" only allowed Foster 8.5 more yards than the teams average. So why are you now claiming Fosters 119 yards is something to brag about? You can't make up your mind. Foster did not even gain the Dolphins average yards allowed for that season.

The fact is Foster had decent games because Schaub lead the league in passing and teams were playing the pass, and had no idea who the UDFA Arian Foster would become in 2010, so they were in nickle and dime most of the time to stop Schaub and you know it.

Will that evidence suffice?



Instead of just asserting it like you did, I think I have gone out of my way to prove you are wrong. Schaub did in fact win more games than he lost with no OL, no running game, and no defense to boot. All the while out pacing guys players like Brady, Manning and Brees.
1. If you think he had no OL in 2009 you need your eyes checked.

2. At no point did I ever mention defense and you keep coming back to that so who exactly insists on tacking things on now?

3. I said a lot more than "I want to see the guy with no protection or running game who wins more than he loses." in my first post that you originally responded to. You've disregarded everything but that one line for some reason. What I'm seeing here is a guy being intentionally obtuse because he thinks he's won an argument.

Unless you really believe that Matt Schaub got no protection in 2009 this is over. If you do believe that his protection in 2009 met that standard (non-existent) then I don't know what to tell you. How about "You're right Nitro!" I can do that.

"You make a great case Nitro and yes, the elusive and crafty 2009 Matt Schaub is the reason why he was only sacked 25 times in 16 games and threw for 29 TD's that year. I missed it but I'm sure HOF voters will not."



Lets simplify this OK? Lets pretend that that only thing I said was the single line you have locked in on.

Quote:
I want to see the guy with no protection or running game who wins more than he loses.
Did Matt Schaub have "no protection" in 2009? I assert that he did in fact have adequate protection in 2009 and that he is not an example of a QB who won more than he lost without protection or a RB.
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Old 06-03-2014   #103
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
You should also compare the teams each one inherited when they came into the NFL, Mannings team was in shambles, virtually nothing on offense to work with. Luck came into a much better situation.
Manning had Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk 98/Edgerrin James 99. That doesn't sound like "shambles" to me. In 98 Faulk had 1300 yds rushing and 900 yds receiving, and in 99 James had over 1500 yds rushing and almost 600 yds receiving, while Harrison had over 1600 yds receiving. While the 1998 team was bad (3-13) it wasn't without talent, and by 1999 they were 13-3.

Luck, on the other hand, had Wayne, Donald Brown, and Vick Ballard in 2012. While Wayne had a good year (1300+ yds), Brown had 400 yds rushing and Ballard had 800 yds rushing. Not bad but I don't think anybody will get Faulk or James mixed up with Ballard and Brown. In 2013 it was worse. He had T.Y. Hilton with 1000+ yds receiving and Brown with 500+ yds rushing and Richardson with 450 yds rushing.

While Manning took over a bad team that was 3-13 in 1997, they were still 3-13 in 1998 with him at QB. Luck took over a bad team that was 2-14 in 2011 and they went 11-5 in his rookie season. So I can't say Luck came into a much better situation. Not with Manning having Faulk and Harrison his rookie year. Neither one came in to a great situation, but I think I would rater have a young Harrison with Faulk than have an aging Wayne with Ballard/Brown. JMO.
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Old 06-03-2014   #104
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

I would still like to see Case get another chance. He was just in a bad situation last season.
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Old 06-03-2014   #105
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BTW, what do people define a "chance" to be? If it's an honest pre-season battle to be the starter, then I think he'll get that. If it's to start several games, before we can make an honest assessment, that may be asking for too much.


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Old 06-03-2014   #106
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
Manning had Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk 98/Edgerrin James 99. That doesn't sound like "shambles" to me. In 98 Faulk had 1300 yds rushing and 900 yds receiving, and in 99 James had over 1500 yds rushing and almost 600 yds receiving, while Harrison had over 1600 yds receiving. While the 1998 team was bad (3-13) it wasn't without talent, and by 1999 they were 13-3.

Luck, on the other hand, had Wayne, Donald Brown, and Vick Ballard in 2012. While Wayne had a good year (1300+ yds), Brown had 400 yds rushing and Ballard had 800 yds rushing. Not bad but I don't think anybody will get Faulk or James mixed up with Ballard and Brown. In 2013 it was worse. He had T.Y. Hilton with 1000+ yds receiving and Brown with 500+ yds rushing and Richardson with 450 yds rushing.

While Manning took over a bad team that was 3-13 in 1997, they were still 3-13 in 1998 with him at QB. Luck took over a bad team that was 2-14 in 2011 and they went 11-5 in his rookie season. So I can't say Luck came into a much better situation. Not with Manning having Faulk and Harrison his rookie year. Neither one came in to a great situation, but I think I would rater have a young Harrison with Faulk than have an aging Wayne with Ballard/Brown. JMO.
Correct me if i am wrong but even then the league was still a rushing league, not so much anymore. And we all know that the colts were sucking for luck regardless of what the team was saying at the time. And you mentioned Luck, Faulk, Harrison. Is that all the team had ? I'm not saying luck is horrible but there are a handful of other guys i would want at QB before him.
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Old 06-03-2014   #107
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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I would still like to see Case get another chance. He was just in a bad situation last season.
What do you mean by chance? If you mean pencil him in as a starter to see what he can do, I strongly disagree with this. I don't think Keenum "deserves" anything. He needs to earn everything, just like Savage, Yates, and Fritz. Whoever comes out on top starts. If someone can't agree with them, then I strongly believe they are more of a Keenum fan than Texans fan.
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Old 06-03-2014   #108
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.


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Old 06-03-2014   #109
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
While Manning took over a bad team that was 3-13 in 1997, they were still 3-13 in 1998 with him at QB. Luck took over a bad team that was 2-14 in 2011 and they went 11-5 in his rookie season. So I can't say Luck came into a much better situation. Not with Manning having Faulk and Harrison his rookie year. Neither one came in to a great situation, but I think I would rater have a young Harrison with Faulk than have an aging Wayne with Ballard/Brown. JMO.
I'm slowly getting on board the "Andrew Luck is God" bandwagon, however when Manning came into the league, he was in the AFC East where the Jets, Bills, & Dolphins all won 10 games in 1998... & the Patriots were the dominant team in that division at that time (only won 9 games).

At no time in Andrew Luck's short career did he have a division that competitive. I'd argue the AFC as a whole was more competitive back in the late 90s.
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Old 06-03-2014   #110
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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I would still like to see Case get another chance. He was just in a bad situation last season.
I'm happy he's getting another shot at it, but he made some bad decisions in that bad situation. I'd have felt much better about him had he made good decisions in that bad situation.
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Old 06-03-2014   #111
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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--chron.com
Yeah! I'd like to see that for a while. I didn't follow CK's collegiate career but I'd certainly heard about him and his medical extension to five years. I was really excited those first three games. I'm not sure GK put him at a disadvantage with the play calling but I thought at the times it was a little different than Matt's tool box. I can't go back and watch the games because DTV replaced my ****** receiver with the latest and greatest so I lost all 16 of 'em. I'd really like to go back and watch them to verify if I saw what I *thought* I saw, along with several other posters here. Then there are those that saw things differently and said so. I'd sure like to go back and draw a more informed opinion.

I just want the best qualified QB under center. Even if it Pickspatrick. Perhaps he's grown by leaps and bounds since last season. I'm just not feelin' it personally.

They'll all get their shot and O'Brien will start the best man standing.

Have I mentioned I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE SEASON?

Heck, I'm jonesing so bad I CAN'T WAIT FOR PRESEASON!

Maybe that last part's just me...

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Old 06-03-2014   #112
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

This is my opinion based on what I know.

1 I haven't seen the author of that article at any of the 2014 OTA sessions FWIW.

2. O'Brien is giving all the QBs a very thorough tire kicking.

3. It's early but none of the QBs are standing out in a above the others way--all pluses and minuses.

4. It is O'Brien's interest to pick the best QB. He is going to not have any easy choices.

5. As it was in Kubiak's interest to pick the best QB. FWIW, despite what the Pizza Boy Writer Man says, Schaub had the best camp in 2013.

6. The premise that Kubiak was somehow intentionally undermining Case Keenum is the biggest pile of an assorted of bad words the MB doesn't allow you to type. It makes my eyes roll back up into my head in an unattractive way.

Kubiak was the biggest supporter of Keenum out of school. His offense is actually probably one of the most well suited ones for Keenum because of the bootlegs. Why did Kubiak pull him? Because he didn't want him to get killed because he couldn't make the right choices as it related to blitzes. After there were marching orders post-Kubiak to play Keenum no matter what, that's when he got hurt.

The offense finally turned into a training wheel shell of itself because of so many roster/injury problems with it.

Not ideal to develop any QB, and not an ideal introduction to the league for Keenum, but better than most UDFAs get.

7. What is weird going into 2014 is that what makes the offense appealing for fans who want change is also difficult for developing QBs.

Kubiak's offense = easier for QBs to have early success in it because it doesn't put high demands on QB.

O'Brien's offense = QBs like it because of the options that it gives them, but there are a lot of mental demands on the QB pre-snap.

Each approach has pluses and minuses, but what is difficult to determine is how much of Keenum's introduction to the NFL last year was system or him. Sage Rosenfels will argue that QBs have their best years under Kubiak because his offense is easy for quarterbacks to pick up and there's always a place for the ball to go.

The Keenum downfield plays were 1. because he does some nice throws that way 2. a recognition that it was unlikely he could repeatedly manufacture a march down the field drive with the problems that they were having on offense. It's sort of the Flacco approach to offense, and perhaps what they would do if Savage got pushed into service early with the new group.

The Flacco form of offense is a bunch of "Hey diddle diddle, Ray Rice down the middle," TE dump offs, and then pulling the slot machine handle on a deep ball, int, or at worst an arm punt.

Problem with that approach is that it tends to be feast or famine. And if defenses know that you are limited, they take away what you like to do and make you pay.

8. I think that the QB competition is wide open for real. That what has happened in the past really doesn't matter because this is a new scheme with a different and steep learning curve. That Fitz probably has the inside track because of experience and manner of carrying himself as a vet, but none of the guys have particularly impressed. To be fair, the installation of the offense is very new, and the defense is always ahead of the offense, even when it is an established offense.

9. The real title of that article should be Arian Foster could give THIS OFFENSE a real chance. He really has been the most outstanding looking player on the offense of the skill positions in 2014.

10. I have nothing nice at all to say about that article. Perhaps that it would make a great emetic.

So those are my thoughts.


/side note, I don't want to get into a this or that Schaub, Keenum, Kubiak whatever discussion. Don't care about the peoples, just care about winning and truth--not spreading misinformation to feed people's biases.

That was then, this is now. You get rid of old problems, you get new problems. Kind of a negative way of looking at things, but every team has their own challenges.
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Old 06-03-2014   #113
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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...but every team has their own challenges.
yup

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Old 06-04-2014   #114
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
This is my opinion based on what I know.

1 I haven't seen the author of that article at any of the 2014 OTA sessions FWIW.

2. O'Brien is giving all the QBs a very thorough tire kicking.

3. It's early but none of the QBs are standing out in a above the others way--all pluses and minuses.

4. It is O'Brien's interest to pick the best QB. He is going to not have any easy choices.

That was then, this is now. You get rid of old problems, you get new problems. Kind of a negative way of looking at things, but every team has their own challenges.
Great post.
I always wonder why the defense is ahead of the offense early on. Is defensive trickeration easier to install than offensive counters or is it that the QBs haven't quite yet learned which offensive counters work best against which defensive sets....
Well, there are two more months until we start playing something resembling football (P/S) so it'll be interesting to see which guy emerges as a winner. I just hope we have a clear winner and not a tie.
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Old 06-04-2014   #115
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

So kubiak's offense limited the QB? Is there a chance that this was because Kubiak was an inflexible control freak?

The Flacco diddle diddle in the middle offense lead the Ravens to 1 SB victory and and AFC championship loss in the last 3 yrs. The Texans with 8 yrs under Kubiak's could only dream of reaching these heights.

It should be really interesting to see how Flacco/Kubiak mesh this yr.
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Old 06-04-2014   #116
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Great post.
I always wonder why the defense is ahead of the offense early on. Is defensive trickeration easier to install than offensive counters or is it that the QBs haven't quite yet learned which offensive counters work best against which defensive sets....
Well, there are two more months until we start playing something resembling football (P/S) so it'll be interesting to see which guy emerges as a winner. I just hope we have a clear winner and not a tie.
I think typically, there is just more moving parts and timing on the part of the offense. It takes a bit before offensive players are on the same page early in OTAs. When the regular season starts, some good offenses can take advantage of defenses because the tackling is so bad.

I do not think there will be a clear winner. In my mind, I have no idea how I would sort them based on what I've seen so far, but they are VERY early in their installation of the offense.

Ultimately, I think ties should go to 1. The player that doesn't waste this season of the other players; 2. The player you would want to develop for the future. Those criteria should go for the starter and backup.
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Old 06-04-2014   #117
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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So kubiak's offense limited the QB? Is there a chance that this was because Kubiak was an inflexible control freak?

The Flacco diddle diddle in the middle offense lead the Ravens to 1 SB victory and and AFC championship loss in the last 3 yrs. The Texans with 8 yrs under Kubiak's could only dream of reaching these heights.

It should be really interesting to see how Flacco/Kubiak mesh this yr.
It's just a different offensive system. With pluses and minuses.

The Flacco offense has always been wildly inconsistent, but boy howdy got on a timely hot streak their SB year. Most years he has had the benefit of great defense and a good running game. Those didn't happen for the Texans until their playoff years.

I've never liked the Ravens O but I'm not sure how the marriage of Flacco and Kubiak will go. Don't like Flacco's short throws (sometimes he whiffs on basic bread and butter throws). And it has been a while since Kubiak has worked with a QB with a huge arm. Given how much Flacco likes throwing to TEs, and that the Texans old TE coach is there now, I'm guessing they will have a fairly effective offense.

But this is not Texans talk, so good buh.
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Old 06-04-2014   #118
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
So kubiak's offense limited the QB? Is there a chance that this was because Kubiak was an inflexible control freak?

The Flacco diddle diddle in the middle offense lead the Ravens to 1 SB victory and and AFC championship loss in the last 3 yrs. The Texans with 8 yrs under Kubiak's could only dream of reaching these heights.

It should be really interesting to see how Flacco/Kubiak mesh this yr.
You really gotta let go of this angle ....
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Old 06-04-2014   #119
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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You really gotta let go of this angle ....
...don't hold your breath.




and they said Kubiak was stubborn...
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Old 06-04-2014   #120
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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1. If you think he had no OL in 2009 you need your eyes checked.

2. At no point did I ever mention defense and you keep coming back to that so who exactly insists on tacking things on now?

3. I said a lot more than "I want to see the guy with no protection or running game who wins more than he loses." in my first post that you originally responded to. You've disregarded everything but that one line for some reason. What I'm seeing here is a guy being intentionally obtuse because he thinks he's won an argument.

Unless you really believe that Matt Schaub got no protection in 2009 this is over. If you do believe that his protection in 2009 met that standard (non-existent) then I don't know what to tell you. How about "You're right Nitro!" I can do that.

"You make a great case Nitro and yes, the elusive and crafty 2009 Matt Schaub is the reason why he was only sacked 25 times in 16 games and threw for 29 TD's that year. I missed it but I'm sure HOF voters will not."



Lets simplify this OK? Lets pretend that that only thing I said was the single line you have locked in on.

Did Matt Schaub have "no protection" in 2009? I assert that he did in fact have adequate protection in 2009 and that he is not an example of a QB who won more than he lost without protection or a RB.
I laid the stats out there deny them if you like. Pass protection was middle of the pack in 2009 so it was mediocre at best. It was nowhere close to the protection Schaub enjoyed in '10, '11, and '12, and we know the running game was light years better in those years too, yet he did not achieve the same kind of success as in 2009.

You didn't mention defense, did I say you did? I added the defense aspect to disprove what you were saying about what QB's need to be "REALLY" successful as you put it. Why so defensive?

Yeah sure you said more words, but it was the essence of your point. Why you are now trying to move the goal post, or add more to your scenario, I don't know. You asked the question and IMO 2009 Schaub is a perfect example of what you asked for. I don't know why you have such a inflated view of your opinion, but I couldn't care less about winning an argument with you. I shared my opinion on your post, you got all defensive and cocky. Not my problem.

Herv, I would never expect to see you agree with me. Your posts speak for themselves. You are taking this way too personal, and I am sorry if you feel slighted somehow.

Brees had better pass protection (13th) yet he finished 4th, Brady had much better protection (4th) yet he finished 3rd, Manning had worse protection (17th) and he finished 2nd. And ALL of those teams had better running games than the Texans in 2009. Those are facts.

You don't have to like it, or agree with it.
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