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Old 06-01-2014   #41
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
The system ( play action & roll outs) was tailor made for Keenum .... His issues (presnap reads) had nothing to do with the system and everything to do with processing information.


We'll see in a few weeks ....
it wasn't tailored for keenum. it was made for schaub and keenum came in.
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Old 06-01-2014   #42
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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it wasn't tailored for keenum. it was made for schaub and keenum came in.
I think he meant more like "it was right up his alley"
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Old 06-01-2014   #43
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
And I respect that. The point is that I don't believe the system served him well. If things don't change for him with another system, I will be right there with you proclaiming that Keenum has short-comings that he cannot overcome.
I think the system favored Keenum's skills very nicely. The rollouts from the the play action and they had a ton of plays designed to get the QB in space. Keenum's mobility was pretty good. He throws well on the run. I think Kubiak's offense set Keenum up very well from a skill set standpoint. Keenum just didn't get better at picking up schemes and how to avoid a lot of traps that defenses would splash on him especially in the 2nd halves. He struggled immensely to adjust. Now I know a lot of that had to do with Kubiak and his refusal to allow audibles or any real creativity from the QB to get out of a bad play call, but Keenum seemed to regress as the season went on. A lot of rookies do. I don't think that Kubiak's system was any type of major factor in that result though.
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Old 06-01-2014   #44
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
The system ( play action & roll outs) was tailor made for Keenum .... His issues (presnap reads) had nothing to do with the system and everything to do with processing information.


We'll see in a few weeks ....

Compared to other rookie QB's how do you think Keenum performed?
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Old 06-01-2014   #45
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most QB's need an OL and/or a RB to really be successful. I want to see the guy with no protection or running game who wins more than he loses. That's guy's going to be spectacular. I'm not saying he doesn't exist but Peyton Manning and Dan Marino don't come around very often and even then they don't win it all without some help.

This year he either seizes the opportunity and takes the starting spot on his own, then runs with it or we gotta keep turning over rocks until we find the guy who does.
See 2009 Matt Schaub

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/htx/2009.htm
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Old 06-01-2014   #46
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

What I am learning from the recent outbreak of Keenum threads is that he cannot be judged (unless it is in a good way, of course) until he is surrounded by elite talent, and in a system designed specifically for him.

Good deal.
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Old 06-01-2014   #47
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I think the system favored Keenum's skills very nicely. The rollouts from the the play action and they had a ton of plays designed to get the QB in space. Keenum's mobility was pretty good. He throws well on the run. I think Kubiak's offense set Keenum up very well from a skill set standpoint. Keenum just didn't get better at picking up schemes and how to avoid a lot of traps that defenses would splash on him especially in the 2nd halves. He struggled immensely to adjust. Now I know a lot of that had to do with Kubiak and his refusal to allow audibles or any real creativity from the QB to get out of a bad play call, but Keenum seemed to regress as the season went on. A lot of rookies do. I don't think that Kubiak's system was any type of major factor in that result though.
To me it seemed that when Keenum was in there that bootlegs, play action and roll outs virtually disappeared. I remember the game Keenum was pulled the play calling was really pissing me off, it was always generic 3 step drops no play action or roll outs. Well that was one of the games Keenum was pulled and Schaub went in, and i'll be damn if the play calling didn't get a whole lot better/more creative for Schaub.
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Old 06-01-2014   #48
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
To me it seemed that when Keenum was in there that bootlegs, play action and roll outs virtually disappeared. I remember the game Keenum was pulled the play calling was really pissing me off, it was always generic 3 step drops no play action or roll outs. Well that was one of the games Keenum was pulled and Schaub went in, and i'll be damn if the play calling didn't get a whole lot better/more creative for Schaub.
I did not see that kind of play calling change. But that is also exactly the kind of thing the system did allow the QB to change at the line - check out of a bootleg to another pass play out of the same formation.

From a logic standpoint it makes absolutely zero sense. Kubiak knew damn well he was fighting for his job. The ONLY way he takes plays off the table with Keenum in the game is if Keenum has been absolutely miserable at them in practice. Sabotaging Keenum doesn't fly unless you believe Kubiak didn't give a flying f'k through a rolling donut about his job and there isn't a single thing that doesn't point strongly in the opposite direction.
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Old 06-01-2014   #49
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I did not see that kind of play calling change. But that is also exactly the kind of thing the system did allow the QB to change at the line - check out of a bootleg to another pass play out of the same formation.

From a logic standpoint it makes absolutely zero sense. Kubiak knew damn well he was fighting for his job. The ONLY way he takes plays off the table with Keenum in the game is if Keenum has been absolutely miserable at them in practice. Sabotaging Keenum doesn't fly unless you believe Kubiak didn't give a flying f'k through a rolling donut about his job and there isn't a single thing that doesn't point strongly in the opposite direction.
Not saying he was trying to make keenum fail, i think more along the lines he was pressured by Mcnair to have Keenum start and he did not fully trust keenum. Which is odd to me because the bootleg IMO suits keenum perfect.
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Old 06-01-2014   #50
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
To me it seemed that when Keenum was in there that bootlegs, play action and roll outs virtually disappeared. I remember the game Keenum was pulled the play calling was really pissing me off, it was always generic 3 step drops no play action or roll outs. Well that was one of the games Keenum was pulled and Schaub went in, and i'll be damn if the play calling didn't get a whole lot better/more creative for Schaub.
I didn't see what you are saying you noticed. I saw the bootlegs being called and I saw Keenum rolling out quite regularly. I also saw him fixating on certain receivers with his eyes, I saw him having a hard time figuring out what to do with the ball.
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Old 06-01-2014   #51
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I didn't see what you are saying you noticed. I saw the bootlegs being called and I saw Keenum rolling out quite regularly. I also saw him fixating on certain receivers with his eyes, I saw him having a hard time figuring out what to do with the ball.
I blame some of the play calling on us not having a legit run game at the time. Schaub was way more experienced and as we all know could read the blitz a lot better.

Anyways like i said i am pulling for Savage personally. I would be happy if Savage or Keenum win the job honestly.
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Old 06-01-2014   #52
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
Not saying he was trying to make keenum fail, i think more along the lines he was pressured by Mcnair to have Keenum start and he did not fully trust keenum. Which is odd to me because the bootleg IMO suits keenum perfect.
The main differences in the offense with Schaub Vs Keenum was one being under center , the other always being in the pistol / shotgun.

Schaub didn't suffer the same kind of pressure Keenum did because he was able to recognize pressure situations and check to the proper protections.


Schaub just couldn't throw the ball worth a sh!t anymore .... had you put Schaub's mental game with Keenum's physical traits , you'd have a damn good QB .... but the reality is Gary had two halves and no whole.
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Old 06-01-2014   #53
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
What I am learning from the recent outbreak of Keenum threads is that he cannot be judged (unless it is in a good way, of course) until he is surrounded by elite talent, and in a system designed specifically for him.

Good deal.
I don't know about others; I can only speak for myself.
I always evaluate a players noting the condition around him.
The guys he plays with and the guy he plays against.
That is call "noting the level of competition".

When I evaluate Keenum in college, for example, I specified those things clearly in the thread that I posted. The same goes for any other QB or any player for that matter.
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Old 06-01-2014   #54
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

Foster isn't a quirky 'feel good story' anymore. He's been linked to some raunchy stuff, his body is failing, and I'm hoping Andre Brown can challenge him for reps.
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Old 06-01-2014   #55
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I didn't see what you are saying you noticed. I saw the bootlegs being called and I saw Keenum rolling out quite regularly. I also saw him fixating on certain receivers with his eyes, I saw him having a hard time figuring out what to do with the ball.
Yes and no.

Like CNND had pointed out, a guy doesn't lose what he already possessed except for cirscumstances like medical/health.

Having a concussion or two can change the mental state of a guy; that is true.

When evaluate Keenum's play in college, I noted that he regularly looks off safeties, eye one way pass another.

The thing is that the QB shouldn't do that all the time, IMO.
If you keep looking one way and pass to another target, the D can key on that.
I think you have to mix it up.

On quick pass, often QB usually just go straight to the target (but not always.)

The mental capacity of Keenum can be seen in a play like the one he made it looks like he was trying to line up guys quickly so he can spike the ball, but instead, he fired a pass to AJ in the end zone for a TD.

That is the kind of quick wit that Keenum already displayed in college.

For example, when he saw a mismatch, he calls for the ball quickly and get the pass off.

He had beaten blitzes many a time before.

He had done all these things with regularity in college, it does not make sense that he lost it all of a sudden.

On the other hand, I do agree with Wade Phillips on the point that seeing and recognizing is one thing, finding the right target in a split of a second at the NFL is harder.
He still needs to keep working on those things.

And to corrosion, I don't get where he comes from with Keenum always in the shotgun.
That is just not true.
Look at the TDS he threw last year.
That's the quickest way to verify that.
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Old 06-01-2014   #56
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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We've had this conversation a dozen times .... and the key word there is "many"

The QB's were allowed to make adjustments , they were limited in what those adjustments were as there were specific adjustments for each play dependent upon what the defense showed.

Protection schemes were one thing they did have the ability to change at the line. They have to understand where the pressure is coming from and account for it.

Go watch the second half of the KC game and you'll understand what I'm getting at. There were times they rushed only 4 but disguised where those 4 were coming from , overloading from one side or another , dropping guys from the front 7 and bringing a DB.

Those are his responsibilities & Keenum looked lost in those situations.
So you are going to make a decision on the way a guy play in hist first game against one of the top defenses in the league in a hostile environment?

I'm sure you want a great QB, but whoever the guy that can satisfy your want there is going to be an HOF right off the bat.

I think you're being too harsh.

I would be noting those things and check on his improvement to see whether the progress is there.

He had reduced the number of sacks taken after that game, whether it was on him or on the pass pro, or something else.

I call that progress.
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Old 06-01-2014   #57
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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To me it seemed that when Keenum was in there that bootlegs, play action and roll outs virtually disappeared. I remember the game Keenum was pulled the play calling was really pissing me off, it was always generic 3 step drops no play action or roll outs. Well that was one of the games Keenum was pulled and Schaub went in, and i'll be damn if the play calling didn't get a whole lot better/more creative for Schaub.
I do remember this happening and also being a bit frustrated. Whether this was a result of Kubiak or Schaub, I have no idea. I didn't record the games last year so I can't go back to find what I remember, but I did comment on this about 3 months or so ago. My comment was refuted then as well as this current comment. But it is good to see someone else had the same impressions at the time.
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Old 06-01-2014   #58
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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So you are going to make a decision on the way a guy play in hist first game against one of the top defenses in the league in a hostile environment?

I'm sure you want a great QB, but whoever the guy that can satisfy your want there is going to be an HOF right off the bat.

I think you're being too harsh.

I would be noting those things and check on his improvement to see whether the progress is there.

He had reduced the number of sacks taken after that game, whether it was on him or on the pass pro, or something else.

I call that progress.
The reality of all of this is that you're referring to a 3rd string QB that NO ONE in the league cares about other than some Houston fans that don't want to let go of the UH days. NO ONE around the league saw any major potential in Keenum by the end of the season that didn't exist from a Houston fan base. Keenum was never drafted for a reason. He was a 3rd string for a reason. He didn't play that well last season for a reason. I don't see any teams trying to trade for him as if he was some hot commodity that just played on a bad team. I suppose that is for those same reasons as well.

I'm not completely writing him off and I won't be shocked if he were to win the starting job, but I doubt it will happen. I was one of the guys that was completely on board with putting him out there last season. He looked to have the best potential of all the guys we had on the roster. He disappointed though and couldn't even squeak out one win in several close losses. In the grand scheme of things, this is just a bunch of Houston fans hoping that they're baby from UH will turn into a special story. There is very little chance of that happening at this point though.
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Old 06-01-2014   #59
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Saw all I needed to of Keenum last season to know that he'll never be a top 10 type of QB on a yearly basis.
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The reality of all of this is that you're referring to a 3rd string QB that NO ONE in the league cares about other than some Houston fans that don't want to let go of the UH days. NO ONE around the league saw any major potential in Keenum by the end of the season that didn't exist from a Houston fan base. Keenum was never drafted for a reason. He was a 3rd string for a reason. He didn't play that well last season for a reason. I don't see any teams trying to trade for him as if he was some hot commodity that just played on a bad team. I suppose that is for those same reasons as well.

I'm not completely writing him off and I won't be shocked if he were to win the starting job, but I doubt it will happen. I was one of the guys that was completely on board with putting him out there last season. He looked to have the best potential of all the guys we had on the roster. He disappointed though and couldn't even squeak out one win in several close losses. In the grand scheme of things, this is just a bunch of Houston fans hoping that they're baby from UH will turn into a special story. There is very little chance of that happening at this point though.
Oh I agree.
I agree from the moment the Texans signed him as an UDFA.

It's a good thing that you think he might cracked the top ten at least one year in his career.

Sure, there were reasons why he went undrafted.
And those reasons have been brought up many times.

What goes on between his ears was not one of those reasons though.
In fact, it is the main reason why some, like me, think that he has a chance in the NFL.

If he didn't have that, I would never ever want him on my team.
I mean, the guy is short.
He isn't as quick as Wilson.
His arm isn't as strong as Wilson.
He was hurt once and was given a medical red shirt.

Why would I bother with a QB that is lacking in physical measurables?

I mean Kevin Kolb went to UH.
He has the physique and the arm.
I did not want him for my NFL team.
Sorry Kolb and Ware.

I prefer a Montana type of QB.
That guy was about an inch taller than Keenum (at most) without the bulk.
And Keenum was known as a dual QB in highschool and early in college.

I watched Montana beat the UH Cougars in the Cotton Bowl and he became the gold standard for me.

There have been quite a few great QBs since then.
The reason I mention Montana is because he only showed just above average arm strength at the combine.

I can't post the link, but it's an article referred to by Wikipedia.

I think Keenum is quite as smart at about the same age.
However, the other two guys (Montana and Brees) continue to learn to adapt their game to the next level.

Obviously, Montana was in a good situation with.Bill Walsh and Brees with Payton.

But they also had to take their game to the next level.

I honestly don't know if Keenum can or not.
Who can predict how far a guy can grow.

There are plenty of UDFA QBs who surpassed the level of expectation for them.
From Warner to Flutie.

Obviously a short guy will have to play really really smart.

If you tell me the Texans can be in a position to draft a guy with a combination of smart and measurables, I would be all over it.

I wanted Wilson; he didn't go to UH.
In fact, I said I prefer Wilson over Keenum.
If the Texans had taken Wilson, I would have not mind at all if they didn't even sign Keenum as an UDFA even though I think it's a colossal mistake not taking a look at him as an UDFA.
No risk; all reward.
At least, you get a solid backup QB for peanuts.
If he gets hurt, you didn't waste any draft pick.
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Old 06-01-2014   #60
Hervoyel
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
That's the guy you're going to hang your hat on for this? 2009 Matt Schaub of the 9-7, barely-won-more-than-they-lost 2009 Houston Texans?

Did you look at who they beat? Aside from a disinterested New England team with jack **** to play for they beat one team with a winning record.

My point stands even if we allow the fairly pathetic 2009 Texans into the argument. Damn few QB's in the history of the NFL ever did much of anything without a running game and some protection. They're kind of important. Even 2009 Schaub had a running game for two of his "epic" 9 wins that year. Arian Foster averaged over 100 yards a game in those last two wins.
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