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Old 05-31-2014   #21
Corrosion
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
With X next to Brown next yr we will find out how bad Wade Smith really was. Brown + X equals being able to convert in the red zone and 3rd and short situations. I'm excited.

All rookie QB's (Which Keenum essentially was) have trouble reading defenses and making adjustments. According to Schaub in another thread the QB's weren't allowed to make many adjustments in last yrs offense.
We've had this conversation a dozen times .... and the key word there is "many"

The QB's were allowed to make adjustments , they were limited in what those adjustments were as there were specific adjustments for each play dependent upon what the defense showed.

Protection schemes were one thing they did have the ability to change at the line. They have to understand where the pressure is coming from and account for it.

Go watch the second half of the KC game and you'll understand what I'm getting at. There were times they rushed only 4 but disguised where those 4 were coming from , overloading from one side or another , dropping guys from the front 7 and bringing a DB.

Those are his responsibilities & Keenum looked lost in those situations.
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Old 05-31-2014   #22
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by JPPT1974 View Post
Keenum had to start right away last year. And really was trying to learn the offense. But hopefully he will really be better this year. As he gets to know the offense more.
Yeah, the new offence no one has ever seen. At least he's now on equal footing and we'll see if he is what he is or can progress. May the best man win, and will.
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Old 05-31-2014   #23
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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May the best man win
Bottom line , that's what I want to see. Don't care who it is as long as someone steps up and claims the spot .... none of this winning by default sh!t.
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Old 05-31-2014   #24
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
I don't know what to put on Schaub and the rest of the qb's anymore. Someone showed me some clips from last year of this team and there were certain instances where the team just seemed confused.

Case running back and taking massive losses on those sacks is inexcusable, but on some of those sacks it wasn't about case not recognizing it. Our oline simply didn't pick it up.

I don't think kubiak did a good job making adjustments over any time period and I think those chickens came home to roost last season. Lots of confusion out there. Undisciplined play. I have been down on Schaub for a while as a player, but I've also said some of that could have been due to the offense as well. Schaub was no star talent, but I don't think he was a scrub he looked like last year either.

I'm not sure how any of these qb's will perform or if ultimately on OB will field a more disciplined, finely tuned team but I suspect he will.

I say all this to say that I think case has some talent and if he can mentally grasp this offense, and if OB can do his thing case and the other qb's could really surprise. I think the qb battle is going to good. The one guy I worry about is Yates...from a fit standpoint. But hell...he could surprise me too.

I also heard that the texans were trying to move Yates before the draft as well. Fwiw.
Good post and I agree for the most part. I'm in disagreement with the bolded. It was posted by someone yesterday who heard LS on the radio saying that the Texans actually "turned down a/a few late round draft pick offer(s) for Yates." I didn't bookmark it or anything but it shouldn't be too difficult to substantiate.
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Old 05-31-2014   #25
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Here is a piece by a Texans writer I very much enjoy and respect. Reading this article in retrospect gives a insightful look into the Keenum case, and for maintaining the case for Keenum.

Case Keenum and The Dumbening of the Texans
Rivers McCown
Posted: December 16, 2013
Thanks for posting that Doc. I really enjoy reading Rivers McCowan's perspective on things Texans. He uses pointed reasoning and writes in a manner that's really easy to follow and understand.

As does our very own TC who has the absolute best response in the remarks following the article. Well thought out, to the point and well presented.

Thanks again.
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Old 05-31-2014   #26
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
We've had this conversation a dozen times .... and the key word there is "many"

The QB's were allowed to make adjustments , they were limited in what those adjustments were as there were specific adjustments for each play dependent upon what the defense showed.

Protection schemes were one thing they did have the ability to change at the line. They have to understand where the pressure is coming from and account for it.

Go watch the second half of the KC game and you'll understand what I'm getting at. There were times they rushed only 4 but disguised where those 4 were coming from , overloading from one side or another , dropping guys from the front 7 and bringing a DB.

Those are his responsibilities & Keenum looked lost in those situations.
Thanks for explaining this.

Keenum looked like a slightly above avg rookie QB. He had the problems most rookie QB's have. (Reading defenses/Protection scheme adjustments) But would you agree that Gary didn't do Keenum any favors with some of the play calling? I mean Keenum seemed to play better when Gary was out/in the press box.
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Old 05-31-2014   #27
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Thanks for explaining this.

Keenum looked like a slightly above avg rookie QB. He had the problems most rookie QB's have. (Reading defenses/Protection scheme adjustments) But would you agree that Gary didn't do Keenum any favors with some of the play calling? I mean Keenum seemed to play better when Gary was out/in the press box.
Not at all , Gary did everything possible to put Case is positions he was comfortable / able to succeed.

Lots of roll outs , play action - things that typically put a defense on its heels and buys a QB time / throwing lanes.

Case played like crap the weeks Gary wasn't on the sidelines , especially that first week .... at least that's my view of revisionist history. Hell , the offense in general was increasingly piss poor over the final few weeks of the season.


I'm not saying Case cant become an NFL QB , he does have the physical ability , my questions are more about his ability to process bits of information and make the proper reads .
This was a strength of Schaub's - he was lacking in the physically gifted department , he had just enough ability to be effective and once he regressed a tiny bit physically he went to sh!t.
Schaub did the little things and mental things very well .... his play action fake was one of the best and he identified pressure well.

Each of these QB's on the roster has flaws , for Case its presnap reads , Yates is a lot like a healthy Schaub , just good enough physically that as long as he doesn't make a mistake .... Fitzpatrick seems to make an awful lot of mistakes both pre and post snap , Savage is a total wildcard.


Bottom line , you look at the downfall of Gary's offense and it coincides with the piss poor QB play. They started 2012 11-1 and have gone 3-17 since with virtually the same team. The main difference being they were missing a healthy Schaub - Doc even predicted Schaub's ineffectiveness as time went on.
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Old 05-31-2014   #28
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

Saw all I needed to of Keenum last season to know that he'll never be a top 10 type of QB on a yearly basis.
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Old 05-31-2014   #29
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Saw all I needed to of Keenum last season to know that he'll never be a top 10 type of QB on a yearly basis.
Many teams have won Lombardi Trophy's with less than top 10 QB's.


I'm not ready to discount Keenum just yet ... but I do recognize his flaws.
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Old 05-31-2014   #30
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Keenum's getting a shot, TJ's getting a shot, Savage is getting a shot ... I'm a happy man. I'm hoping for Keenum, but want the best man to win. I think most Keenum fans fall into that category, actually. We just tend to respond to the haters that insist he's crap, done, etc.
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Old 05-31-2014   #31
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Keenum's getting a shot, TJ's getting a shot, Savage is getting a shot ... I'm a happy man. I'm hoping for Keenum, but want the best man to win. I think most Keenum fans fall into that category, actually. We just tend to respond to the haters that insist he's crap, done, etc.
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Old 05-31-2014   #32
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Many teams have won Lombardi Trophy's with less than top 10 QB's.


I'm not ready to discount Keenum just yet ... but I do recognize his flaws.
No, that really doesn't happen often. Especially not in today's NFL. Most SB's have at least one elite level QB or at the very least a 10 type of QB. Sure, one below average can be part of that equation, but it's very seldom and very difficult. A QB being the most important position on the field usually holds a team back from reaching their full potential if they're a great team than them succeeding to their full potential.
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Old 05-31-2014   #33
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

We keep on talking about Keenum not correctly calling/recognizing his protection. Over the years, I have read numerous times that Meyers has been mostly responsible for calling protections on the line. At UofH, Keenum set all protections, and read his hot reads with no problems, and seemed to consistently produce more than adequately. He didn't just lose these abilities coming to the Texans. Yes, the NFL is faster. All the more reason to allow a rookie QB to play to his strengths, which if it includes setting his own protections and being able to adjust plays to his strengths, then so be it. Whether he agreed or not, he was dealt the called protections, and restricted besides in what he could do once he was given them....a recipe for certain failure.

Here's an article from 2012 which speaks to protection schemes by various NFL teams, including the Texans. Meyers has been the main guy, with some input by a veteran QB, Schaub.

Quote:
Who calls the protections, and why?

December, 20, 2012
1:43 PM ET
By Paul Kuharsky | ESPN.com
Keenum as a rookie was not about to get veteran status in this system, anymore than he was to be given true free reign to audible into HIS play of comfort.
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Old 05-31-2014   #34
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

Arian giving Case a real chance is a moot point. This new team including a healthy Arian Foster gives whoever is our QB a real chance. There will be a competition in camp, there will be preseason and then OB will choose the QB that will best help him win. If that`s Case, great. But having Arian back doesn`t really change anything as to his chances.
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Old 05-31-2014   #35
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
We keep on talking about Keenum not correctly calling/recognizing his protection. Over the years, I have read numerous times that Meyers has been mostly responsible for calling protections on the line. At UofH, Keenum set all protections, and read his hot reads with no problems, and seemed to consistently produce more than adequately. He didn't just lose these abilities coming to the Texans. Yes, the NFL is faster. All the more reason to allow a rookie QB to play to his strengths, which if it includes setting his own protections and being able to adjust plays to his strengths, then so be it. Whether he agreed or not, he was dealt the called protections, and restricted besides in what he could do once he was given them....a recipe for certain failure.

Here's an article from 2012 which speaks to protection schemes by various NFL teams, including the Texans. Meyers has been the main guy, with some input by a veteran QB, Schaub.



Keenum as a rookie was not about to get veteran status in this system, anymore than he was to be given true free reign to audible into HIS play of comfort.
Doc , you can dispute what I've said about Keenum if you like .... but you know that my information comes from a guy who's been a part of the NFL since 1983.


I hope he's successful .... its entirely possible Keenum wakes up tomorrow understanding presnap reads ..... But I don't expect it.
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Old 05-31-2014   #36
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Doc , you can dispute what I've said about Keenum if you like .... but you know that my information comes from a guy who's been a part of the NFL since 1983.


I hope he's successful .... its entirely possible Keenum wakes up tomorrow understanding presnap reads ..... But I don't expect it.
And I respect that. The point is that I don't believe the system served him well. If things don't change for him with another system, I will be right there with you proclaiming that Keenum has short-comings that he cannot overcome.
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Old 05-31-2014   #37
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
And I respect that. The point is that I don't believe the system served him well. If things don't change for him with another system, I will be right there with you proclaiming that Keenum has short-comings that he cannot overcome.
The system ( play action & roll outs) was tailor made for Keenum .... His issues (presnap reads) had nothing to do with the system and everything to do with processing information.


We'll see in a few weeks ....
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Old 05-31-2014   #38
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
We keep on talking about Keenum not correctly calling/recognizing his protection. Over the years, I have read numerous times that Meyers has been mostly responsible for calling protections on the line. At UofH, Keenum set all protections, and read his hot reads with no problems, and seemed to consistently produce more than adequately. He didn't just lose these abilities coming to the Texans. Yes, the NFL is faster. All the more reason to allow a rookie QB to play to his strengths, which if it includes setting his own protections and being able to adjust plays to his strengths, then so be it. Whether he agreed or not, he was dealt the called protections, and restricted besides in what he could do once he was given them....a recipe for certain failure.

Here's an article from 2012 which speaks to protection schemes by various NFL teams, including the Texans. Meyers has been the main guy, with some input by a veteran QB, Schaub.



Keenum as a rookie was not about to get veteran status in this system, anymore than he was to be given true free reign to audible into HIS play of comfort.
Exactly and if the QB is allowed to do his thing as we keep hearing, well Case should do well IF the rest of offense plays up to talent level. Let's just wait and see. What happened last season hopefully in the past. New blood at new positions should make for some good ball.
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Old 05-31-2014   #39
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post

Keenum as a rookie was not about to get veteran status in this system, anymore than he was to be given true free reign to audible into HIS play of comfort.
As a true rookie coming into this same system, RG3 didn't seem to have a problem.

I want Case to succeed. I'm just not down with the whole, the system/team wasn't worth a crap around him so he didn't look so good.

When the play/protection broke down, Case made decisions that I'd rather he not made. & when teams figured out how to rattle him, they could implement it again & again and Case never figured it out.


He's getting another chance. Whether he deserves it or not. I'm hoping Case & Godsey & OB click & Case can lead us to an 8-8 season if not a winning season in 2014... But if you look at rookie QBs who averaged 10 yards per sack, most of them have not turned out too well.

But I'm rooting for him.
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Old 05-31-2014   #40
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Default Re: Arian foster Gives Case Keenum a real chance.

I am glad that there will be a QB battle for starter.

I am rooting for Keenum, but the guy who wins the QB battle should get the starting job.

I thought that Keenum did pretty well in his games all things considered. Some aspects of the game he can control, and some he can't.

Definitely can't blame the losses solely on Keenum. A better secondary effort and less dropped passes by the WRs (AJ included) and the Texans beat the Patriots.
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