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Old 05-20-2014   #41
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'll give you that.

Brady fumbled the ball 12 times as a first year starter, in 14 games.

Keenum fumbled the ball 9 times in 8.

I've got no misconceptions about the guy Tom Brady was. He wasn't a great QB back then, but he was clutch. Always managing to get his team what they needed when they needed it most.

Can't say the same for first year Keenum.

So I understand the guys who are wanting to move on & find our franchise QB, because unless you see Romo as a franchise QB, it's hard to think about Keenum as the face of our franchise.

I think Romo is a franchise QB.

Still, I feel if we don't have a franchise QB, get me another Schaub. A healthy Schaub & I think Keenum can be that.

But don't stop looking for that franchise QB, even though you might hurt Keenum's feelings.
MSR for your last 2 posts in this thread. Good points and arguments.
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Old 05-20-2014   #42
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Schaub, in his worst season ever, won two games. He took 21 sacks for 162 yards.

As a first time starter, Schaub only took 16 sacks for 126 yards, finished with an 87.2 passer rating, & he punished teams for blitzing him.
It should be noted that Schaub became a starter after watching for three seasons behind Michael Vick in Atlanta. That's three training camps, three preseasons, a variety of appearances in 38 games (ranging from no-throwing cleanup-time hand-off duty to a pair of starts (one each in 2004 and 2005).

By the time Matt came to Houston to be a full time starter he'd already attempted 161 NFL passes, completing 84 of them for 1033 yards, and 6 TD's to go with his 6 INT's. About a 55% percent completion percentage.

He'd started out with a 42 passer rating in Atlanta and climbed up as high as 98 before settling back to 71.

Compared to Keenum's introduction to the starting QB job Schaub had it pretty damn good in terms of prep time. Even then he still only played in 11 games in 2007 and threw as many picks as touchdowns (9/9).

In his 8 games starting last year Keenum threw the ball 5 more times per game that Matt did in 2007. Keenum also threw for 9 TD's but only 6 picks. Neither one of them had much in the way of a running game. Schaub's protection was much better but more than that Schaub already knew how to handle being pressured at this level.

Matt won 3 games his first year here. Keenum won none in his. Matt had a passer rating over 100 in each of his 2007 wins. Keenum had a passer rating over 100 twice but both games were losses.

What does it all mean? To me it means the line between being a "success" who gets 7 seasons to run your course and being a failure who's already peaked after 8 games is a very fine line indeed. It probably means nothing really. just pointing out that those two players had completely different paths to their first chance at being the full-time starter on their respective teams.

I really wouldn't wish Keenum's so-called "opportunity" on any promising young QB much less on an UDFA that half the fan base thinks isn't worth the trouble to begin with.
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Old 05-20-2014   #43
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Well, the good thing about having O'Brien come in without a starting QB is that we can be certain that Keenum will be analyzed and given a shot. If he does not pan out with O'Brien, then it should be fairly obvious when two different NFL staffs arrive at the same conclusion.

I'd love to see the kid make it and succeed, just because it's a great story. But, that said, story is a result, not a justification.
Keenum has had two opportunities that most undrafted free agents do not have at all... a clean opportunity to start for 8 games and a chance to outplay three Qbs that the organization/coaching staff does not have a significant investment.

I won't even consider arguing that it is fair, but a guy like him has to take advantage of situations no matter how bad. Last year he failed and mostly showed his weaknesses. Again not fair that the Texans were not a 'perfect' but he made nothing better. Getting an off-season to SHOW this new staff this he is a legitimate NFL STARTING qb is more than he could ever ask for after 2013.
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Old 05-21-2014   #44
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Good; which was supposed to be on the card.
Everybody (or so it seems) is on this; which is totally legitimate?
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
We'll get to that.
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Whatever number you're looking at; can you do me a favor looking at Brady ' s ?

And I promise you it#2 just a start m
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It's a legitimate question.
Aren't we asking of a world beater here?
No doubt we can use one.
I'm going to need your help deciphering all of this. I only made one post in this thread and you responded to it 4 different times with this gibberish. I really have no idea what you're getting at.
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Old 05-21-2014   #45
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Getting an off-season to SHOW this new staff this he is a legitimate NFL STARTING qb is more than he could ever ask for after 2013.
Which is why I don't understand all the bickering. It's going to happen. Keenum is going to get another chance. He'll prove some of us right & some of us wrong...
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Old 05-21-2014   #46
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Which is why I don't understand all the bickering. It's going to happen. Keenum is going to get another chance. He'll prove some of us right & some of us wrong...
some people want to be the smartest guy on the message board.
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Old 05-21-2014   #47
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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But don't stop looking for that franchise QB, even though you might hurt Keenum's feelings.
Hey, I've said all along that I want an honest competition (at every position, really). I want Savage and Yates to get an honest competition. And I want the best man to win. I want that best man to be Keenum, but I don't want Keenum to be handed the job like QBs in Texans past have. I am rooting for him to win the job, not to just be handed the job. If he doesn't win it, then I don't want him on the field. And I said the same thing about Schaub. If he was good enough to beat out Rosenfels and whoever else, then he shouldn't have had an issue if the job were put to an open competition. But it never was. If Keenum somehow wins the starting job, it'll be in large part because of his perseverance and mental toughness, a couple traits I think will serve him well throughout his NFL career, however long or short it may be.

So yeah, draft a QB every year. Just make sure the starter has to win the job. If he's good enough, that'll be the least of his (and the team's) concerns.
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Old 05-21-2014   #48
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There is really no point fussing over Case. I am pulling for the guy but I want what's best of the team. He is going to get his shot.


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Old 05-21-2014   #49
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

There is a majory difference here. KJ and Myers were hated by the majority of the fanbase. Lots of people would`ve been happy just to get rid of them.

Most people here like Keenum. He is a cool guy, local guy, he had some exciting games, can do lots of throws. But he has his defficiencies. Mostly picking up the blitz, some because of his size, and it seems like he isn`t fast going through his reads. I don`t think many people hate him, if any. I think lots of people simply question, if he has the talent and the tools to develope into a franchise QB. And I don`t think many would want to cut him. If he looks great in camp and preseason, I think most people would be happy with him as a starter.
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Old 05-21-2014   #50
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
It should be noted that Schaub became a starter after watching for three seasons behind Michael Vick in Atlanta. That's three training camps, three preseasons, a variety of appearances in 38 games (ranging from no-throwing cleanup-time hand-off duty to a pair of starts (one each in 2004 and 2005).

By the time Matt came to Houston to be a full time starter he'd already attempted 161 NFL passes, completing 84 of them for 1033 yards, and 6 TD's to go with his 6 INT's. About a 55% percent completion percentage.

He'd started out with a 42 passer rating in Atlanta and climbed up as high as 98 before settling back to 71.

Compared to Keenum's introduction to the starting QB job Schaub had it pretty damn good in terms of prep time. Even then he still only played in 11 games in 2007 and threw as many picks as touchdowns (9/9).

In his 8 games starting last year Keenum threw the ball 5 more times per game that Matt did in 2007. Keenum also threw for 9 TD's but only 6 picks. Neither one of them had much in the way of a running game. Schaub's protection was much better but more than that Schaub already knew how to handle being pressured at this level.

Matt won 3 games his first year here. Keenum won none in his. Matt had a passer rating over 100 in each of his 2007 wins. Keenum had a passer rating over 100 twice but both games were losses.

What does it all mean? To me it means the line between being a "success" who gets 7 seasons to run your course and being a failure who's already peaked after 8 games is a very fine line indeed. It probably means nothing really. just pointing out that those two players had completely different paths to their first chance at being the full-time starter on their respective teams.

I really wouldn't wish Keenum's so-called "opportunity" on any promising young QB much less on an UDFA that half the fan base thinks isn't worth the trouble to begin with.
Great post, Herv! I believe Keenum will get his fair chance to compete for the starting role.......and that is all I would ask for. Last year, Keenum wasn't just simply thrown into the fire...............he was thrown into Hell.

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Old 05-21-2014   #51
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
not fair that the Texans were not a 'perfect' but he made nothing better.
Nobody is saying they have to be perfect .... just competent. As Cloak said, Keenum wasn't thrown into the fire last year ... he was thrown into hell. So, if you have a scale with 'perfect' on one end and 'hell' on the other, this team was much closer to hell.

I would also say that in his first 3 games, before the team and coaches quit on the season, he did make things better. He certainly held up his end but was betrayed by poor special teams and defense.

Yes, he does have a lot of room for improvement in his game and we'll see if he makes that leap this year.
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Old 05-21-2014   #52
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

I'm not a UH fan.
I'm not a home town Keenum homer.
I don't care who comes out of camp as the starter, as long as it's the guy that gives us the best chance to win.

Now, having said that, I've stated before that I think Kubiak was Keenum's main problem. I think Kubiak gradually stifled Keenum's natural style of play, and made Keenum think too much, resulting in CK playing tight.
I know I am in a small minority to think this, and I hope O'Brien gives Keenum a fair shot just so I can see if I was correct or not.
I'm not saying that Keenum will ever be an above average QB in the league, but I think he is capable of much better play than he exhibited, especially later in the season.
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Old 05-21-2014   #53
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Sorry for all the gibberish.
Typing on a new phone isn't fun.

TK had made most of the points for me.

The number of sacks he took are about the same as Brady in his first year (prorated).

The most important thing; though, is that Brady's defense allowed nearly ten fewer points per game.
If the Texans D had done the same, how many wins would Keenum have?

Brady had a real kicker.
Who did Keenum have?

And we all know that if the Texans were close in games, they would have run the ball more.
Wait.
Keenum was the leading rusher on the team.
Look at what Tate and Foster did in the games Keenum played.
And don't even start on the other guys.
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Old 05-21-2014   #54
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Keenum better hope he can make the team

if bob only wants to carry 2 QBS well then Kennum is in reallly big trouble

I'd take Yates over Case has of right now at least he won a PLayoff game and played decent against Balty
Are you refering to the playoff game?
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT SACKS QBR RTG
T. Yates 17/35 184 5.3 0 3 0-0 13.6 28.8
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Old 05-21-2014   #55
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Brady had a better running game to protect him.
His D forced about twice more turnovers to give the ball back.
His special team was better over all.
In fact, aftet punt return, Brady averaged nearly ten yards in better field position than Keenum had to start with.

And who's going to say that Kubiak is a better coach than BB?
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Old 05-21-2014   #56
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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I'm not a UH fan.
I'm not a home town Keenum homer.
I don't care who comes out of camp as the starter, as long as it's the guy that gives us the best chance to win.

Now, having said that, I've stated before that I think Kubiak was Keenum's main problem. I think Kubiak gradually stifled Keenum's natural style of play, and made Keenum think too much, resulting in CK playing tight.
I know I am in a small minority to think this, and I hope O'Brien gives Keenum a fair shot just so I can see if I was correct or not.
I'm not saying that Keenum will ever be an above average QB in the league, but I think he is capable of much better play than he exhibited, especially later in the season.
Being a good qb is as much about being able to make defenses pay with those things you do well as it is about making them pay when they force you to do things you don't do as well....I say that to say that Kubiak handled him the same way most HC's handle qbs...He highlighted things that he did best within the framework of the overall offense...We saw way more spread offensive sets that catered to Keenum & his comfortability. Really that's all you can ask for from your HC.

Early on Keenum had some moments where his best skills shined through..that wasn't just Keenum balling out, that had something to do with Kubiak too. but slowly as defenses began to adjust and force him out of his comfort zone, Keenum had no answers. That primetime jags game was atrocious to watch on offense with Keenum at the helm. & from that end, what was kubiak supposed to do? scrap his whole offense to put more plays in for Keenum?
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Old 05-21-2014   #57
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Are you refering to the playoff game?
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT SACKS QBR RTG
T. Yates 17/35 184 5.3 0 3 0-0 13.6 28.8

Yeah if we just got average QB play out of Yates we likely walk into New England and play for the AFC championship.
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Old 05-21-2014   #58
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Lightbulb Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

If it were up to me, I'd let it be a competition between Fitz/Keenum/Yates for the starting QB and backup positions. Biggest loser of those 3 gets cut. Savage is locked in @ the #3 spot, where he will practice and learn.

We are in a rebuild anyways so the following is how it would work:

Whoever wins the starting job better come out of the gate shooting, and shooting well. Win OR lose, the starting QB will be evaluated based off of his play. Taking way too many sacks will be frowned upon as well as too many INT's, especially of the pick 6 variety!!!! I would not spend too much time this season with a QB that struggles! Bench him for the backup QB and let him have a shot. Repeat if necessary until we either have a confident winning QB at the starter spot, or else we run out of games!!
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Old 05-21-2014   #59
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Keenum better hope he can make the team

if bob only wants to carry 2 QBS well then Kennum is in reallly big trouble

I'd take Yates over Case has of right now at least he won a PLayoff game and played decent against Balty
Yates did not win the playoff game. The Texans did. All he did was hand the ball off and got the hell out of the way. Nothing in that game hung upon his shoulders what so ever. The defense and Foster controlled that one.

And he played like absolute crap against the Ravens so not sure where you got 'decent' from. Well, unless you mean decently bad then yes, I concur.
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Old 05-21-2014   #60
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Being a good qb is as much about being able to make defenses pay with those things you do well as it is about making them pay when they force you to do things you don't do as well....I say that to say that Kubiak handled him the same way most HC's handle qbs...He highlighted things that he did best within the framework of the overall offense...We saw way more spread offensive sets that catered to Keenum & his comfortability. Really that's all you can ask for from your HC.

Early on Keenum had some moments where his best skills shined through..that wasn't just Keenum balling out, that had something to do with Kubiak too. but slowly as defenses began to adjust and force him out of his comfort zone, Keenum had no answers. That primetime jags game was atrocious to watch on offense with Keenum at the helm. & from that end, what was kubiak supposed to do? scrap his whole offense to put more plays in for Keenum?
I commented on that very thing last year. I was very interested in how Keenum would do once teams had some film on him. I was disappointed.
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