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Old 05-27-2014   #241
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Do you give an undrafted player the same amount of chances to prove himself as you would a #1 pick? Nope. Let's not be naive here Ericadoc.
First off, it is my opinion that teams would be better off in many situations if they did. Give a guy time to develop and he can turn out to be something. But I'm not naive enough to think that teams actually do that. However, our team does not have a #1 pick, so I'm not judging Keenum the same as a guy that's started 40+ games. Because there is no clear cut guy ahead of him, he may just develop and surprise some of y'all. Or maybe he won't. Whatever. I don't see the harm in hoping he does well. Hell, I want all our guys to do well, and I've said repeatedly that I want an honest, open competition, and the best man to win. Looks like we might actually get that for the first time in Texans history.
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Old 05-27-2014   #242
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Obviously, OB does not think as do you or Case would be gone.
Right....so what does him bringing in Fitzy say about his beliefs then?
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Old 05-27-2014   #243
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Smile Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?
I didn't know you can make excuses too.
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Old 05-27-2014   #244
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

There are no excuses about the pressure given up.
It is well documented by independent sources like SI and PFF.
The drops by the receivers should be documented somewhere, or you can roll back the tapes to the plays I had described.
The lacking on D, ST, penalties.
They are all there.
Everything is in either black and white or in vivid color.
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Old 05-27-2014   #245
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?
We didnt look like a talented playoff team when Keenum took over
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Old 05-27-2014   #246
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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First off, it is my opinion that teams would be better off in many situations if they did. Give a guy time to develop and he can turn out to be something.
Wouldn't Miami be better off if they'd stuck with Henne & used that #1 on someone like Luke Kuechly, Stephon Gilmore, or Quinton Coples?

Maybe not, but they wouldn't be much worse off if they had.

Or Jacksonville, should have stuck with Henne instead of forcing Gabbert back into the starting line up.
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Old 05-27-2014   #247
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Right....so what does him bringing in Fitzy say about his beliefs then?
It says he thinks bringing Fitzmagic in is a better option than drafting Bortles, Bridgewater, or Manziel in the first round.
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Old 05-27-2014   #248
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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It says he thinks bringing Fitzmagic in is a better option than drafting Bortles, Bridgewater, or Manziel in the first round.
Pure conjecture. Do you have a clue where the Texans had those guys slotted?
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Old 05-27-2014   #249
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Pure conjecture. Do you have a clue where the Texans had those guys slotted?
Not in their first round pick
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Old 05-28-2014   #250
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Pure conjecture.
Yes. So is anything else that can be "derived" from signing Ryan Fitzpatrick.
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Old 05-28-2014   #251
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Aikman:

a true rookie surrounded by a 4-12 team with 0 talent on said team...with a rookie head coach to boot....


Keenum:

2nd year player, with pretty good talent on offense with him, and a team coming off a playoff appearance the year before...and a coach with 8 years of experience under his belt.

see the difference there?
The Cowboys finished 1-15 Aikman's rookie yr. (0 talent)

Johnson was a better HC as a rookie than Kubiak was after 8 yrs. IMHO (Johnson was a GOAT type HC)

I think you're vastly overrating the talent on offense and the league caught up with Kubiak and the WC offense.
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Old 05-28-2014   #252
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Then on regular plays, the pass-pro was lacking, the secondary can afford to cheat up more often.
If you pay attention to the receivers from both teams, you should notice that theirs were more open than ours, and it's not just because they were able to create more separarion.

It's a chain of effect that keeps snowballing, making it hard to watch.

Dang, we made Mcgloin looks like an All - pro, one has to wonder why OB didn't trade a 4th for him instead of drafting Savage.
Perhaps, the Raiders wanted AJ instead, LOL!
Or the fact that we never threw a ball deeper than 20 yards when Matt was under the center..
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Old 05-28-2014   #253
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
The Cowboys finished 1-15 Aikman's rookie yr. (0 talent)

Johnson was a better HC as a rookie than Kubiak was after 8 yrs. IMHO (Johnson was a GOAT type HC)

I think you're vastly overrating the talent on offense and the league caught up with Kubiak and the WC offense.
vastly overrating?

HOFer WR who had a typical year = AJ..that 1989 cowboys team didn't have anything close to that.

very capable 2nd WR who had a solid rookie season = Nuk which = a young Micheal Irvin for that 1989 cowboys squad.

pro bowl LT & center = Albeit Brown had a down year, but there's nothing that shows Myers was awful. Wade Smith and Brooks/Jones were average & Brooks might've won the starting gig for this year as the RG based on his play last year. Newton was the only guy below average/terrible. - The cowboys had just drafted Stepnoski who wasn't ready....that's pretty much all they had at the time.

a solid back up TE who's likely gonna be a starter this year....1989 cowboys had nothing even close to that.

and for all the talk about how Tate was ineffective b/c he had a few broken ribs late in the season, his total production for the season was better than that 1989 cowboys top 2 rbs combined. that not only speaks to the talent at the rb position for the cowboys, it also speaks to how terrible that o-line for them was..again, the texans o-line wasn't nearly as bad.

Add in the fact that you have a qb friendly offense and no, i don't think i am overating this offense's capability.

There's also no way you can assert that Jimmy Johnson at that time was a better HC than Kubiak was 8 years in without the use of hindsight. Kubiak for all his warts took over a team just as bad record and talent wise in 2005 and won more games with a worse qb in his rookie HC campaign. The most you can say without using hindsight is that they were even.

The league may have caught on to Kubiak's tendencies but if Jimmy Johnson were coaching today he very well would've been fired after that 7-9 1990 campaign which would've been his 3rd straight losing season.
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Old 05-28-2014   #254
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

That Cowboys Oline was full of great players.

At Center they had the wily veteran Raferty to start the first eight games before gave way to the youngster Stepnoski.

At LT, there was Tunei entering his seventh year; this guy eventually became a two - time probowlers.

At RT, there was Kevin Gogan, a third year player who eventually became 3 - time probowler.

At G, there were Nate Newton (an eventual 8 - time probowler) and Crawford Ker, a veteran that they were comfortable with to trade away the #29 pick overall Wisniewski (who was good enough to make the probowl the following year and many more.)
They used one of those picks on Daryl Johnston, an eventual probowler at FB.

The running game featured more of Aikman than the Texans with their QBs.
If you separate the numbers of all the RBs, you will find that the backs did not run as well in games that Keenum played (basically because they were facing 5 out of 8 top ten defenses in the league.)
The Texans running game averaged at most ten yards per game for Keenum, but the Cowboys ST made it up for Aikman.

Their D limited opponents to about 3 points fewer.

Michael Irving averaged 20.4 yards per catch the year before, and just 14.5 with Aikman because Aikman's 3.8 AYA was just horrible.
He didn't improve that by much the following year at 5.0 which pales in comparison to Keenum's 6.8

Aikman threw for 11 TDS and 18 INTS in his second year behind a line that was even better.

And he took 39 sacks.

This was with the addition of Emmit Smith, Alonzo Highsmith at RBs, Alexander Wright at WR (overall #26 pick) and Jay Novacek at TE.

His defense also got better with even more big names.

What are the excuses for him in his second year?
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Old 05-28-2014   #255
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
That Cowboys Oline was full of great players.

At Center they had the wily veteran Raferty to start the first eight games before gave way to the youngster Stepnoski.

At LT, there was Tunei entering his seventh year; this guy eventually became a two - time probowlers.

At RT, there was Kevin Gogan, a third year player who eventually became 3 - time probowler.

At G, there were Nate Newton (an eventual 8 - time probowler) and Crawford Ker, a veteran that they were comfortable with to trade away the #29 pick overall Wisniewski (who was good enough to make the probowl the following year and many more.)
They used one of those picks on Daryl Johnston, an eventual probowler at FB.

The running game featured more of Aikman than the Texans with their QBs.
If you separate the numbers of all the RBs, you will find that the backs did not run as well in games that Keenum played (basically because they were facing 5 out of 8 top ten defenses in the league.)
The Texans running game averaged at most ten yards per game for Keenum, but the Cowboys ST made it up for Aikman.

Their D limited opponents to about 3 points fewer.

Michael Irving averaged 20.4 yards per catch the year before, and just 14.5 with Aikman because Aikman's 3.8 AYA was just horrible.
He didn't improve that by much the following year at 5.0 which pales in comparison to Keenum's 6.8

Aikman threw for 11 TDS and 18 INTS in his second year behind a line that was even better.

And he took 39 sacks.

This was with the addition of Emmit Smith, Alonzo Highsmith at RBs, Alexander Wright at WR (overall #26 pick) and Jay Novacek at TE.

His defense also got better with even more big names.

What are the excuses for him in his second year?
Using your own words, Aikman evetually had guys developed around him that turned out to be good to great.....Keenum already had a few guys around him that were pretty good to great.

That Cowboys team may have had the bullets in the chamber, but they were not 90's Cowboys as we came to know them....they were far from it and these aren't "excuses" for Aikman. He was bad...and if he'd been a smallish undrafted FA like Case is, he likely would've been relegated to back up status if not outright cut after his 1st year of starting let alone getting a 2nd year...but he wasn't. He was the antithesis of Keenum in every sense of the word from draft status to physical tools. So naturally, he got more of a chance to develop b/c he had more to work with.

Case's situation ironically is more comparable to the guy Aikman competed with in Dallas for the starting gig.....Steve Walsh. I suspect that it will follow the same course as well.
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Old 05-28-2014   #256
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Using your own words, Aikman evetually had guys developed around him that turned out to be good to great.....Keenum already had a few guys around him that were pretty good to great.

That Cowboys team may have had the bullets in the chamber, but they were not 90's Cowboys as we came to know them....they were far from it and these aren't "excuses" for Aikman. He was bad...and if he'd been a smallish undrafted FA like Case is, he likely would've been relegated to back up status if not outright cut after his 1st year of starting let alone getting a 2nd year...but he wasn't. He was the antithesis of Keenum in every sense of the word from draft status to physical tools. So naturally, he got more of a chance to develop b/c he had more to work with.

Case's situation ironically is more comparable to the guy Aikman competed with in Dallas for the starting gig.....Steve Walsh. I suspect that it will follow the same course as well.
I actually agree with this.

As to your Johnson/Kubiak assertion in the previous post. It's true that you cant compare Johnson as a rookie to Kubiak as an 8 yr vet HC.

However both started off with terrible teams. Johnson built his team into a 3 time in 4 yrs SB champion and retired as a SB champion. Kubiak started 2-14 and finished 2-14 with a couple of wildcard wins in 8 yrs. So I feel comfortable in saying Johnson even while building his team was a better HC with a better vision for the future than Kubiak ever had and was a better HC as a rookie than Kubiak ever was.
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Old 05-28-2014   #257
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

I think you're missing the point.
The point is that Aikman was a young QB and most of them need time to develop.

Some people uses the fact the Keenum was 0- fer
Well then so was Aikman; actually, he was worse.

Whether they develop or not is a different matter.

The cowboys spent their next year first on Walsh in the supplementary draft because Walsh was Johnsons guy in Miami.
That was also a high price.
And the fact that Walsh won a game and had better numbers than Aikman playing on the same team further shows that numbers of wins alone don't mean anything.

Johnson only became convinced of Aikman in his second year and traded Walsh away.
Or maybe he was forced by Jerry.

On the other hand, Bledsoe, despite being a first round pick, basically lost his job to a 6th rounder.

It works both ways.
Just a matter of which guy becomes a better pro.
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Old 05-28-2014   #258
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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I think you're missing the point.
The point is that Aikman was a young QB and most of them need time to develop.

Some people uses the fact the Keenum was 0- fer
Well then so was Aikman; actually, he was worse.

Whether they develop or not is a different matter.

The cowboys spent their next year first on Walsh in the supplementary draft because Walsh was Johnsons guy in Miami.
That was also a high price.
And the fact that Walsh won a game and had better numbers than Aikman playing on the same team further shows that numbers of wins alone don't mean anything.

Johnson only became convinced of Aikman in his second year and traded Walsh away.
Or maybe he was forced by Jerry.

On the other hand, Bledsoe, despite being a first round pick, basically lost his job to a 6th rounder.

It works both ways.
Just a matter of which guy becomes a better pro.
I love ya 76, but i think it's you who's missing the point. Premium talents at all positions are afforded time to develop. Everyone else not in that realm has to get in where they fit in, seize on one of their few opportunities and make due with what they have to work with. I'm not saying its fair, i'm just saying that's how it is. There's a reason there aren't that many Tom Brady-like stories. & that's b/c as much as we like to downplay it, NFL scouts are right more often than not on prospects and their ceilings. As far as the texans & BoB go, you can't hang your hat on what Case did in those last 8 games and say "if he just had this corrected he could be good..". Premium talents usually don't need that...which is why they're coveted and given more leeway.

As for the Bledsoe thing, look Bledsoe had skins on the wall but he was just about past his prime by the time Brady came along and unseated him. If Brady was drafted 1-2 years after Bledsoe, Brady has 0 shot to unseat Bledsoe once he comes back from injury and the legend of Brady (at least in NE) is never written. Likewise, if Brady was the incumbent & put up the numbers he did his 1st & 2nd year starting for NE & then Bledsoe is drafted 1-2 years later, trust Brady's out the door. Premium talent is always given the benefit of the doubt; and as you know, Case isn't a premium talent.
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Old 05-28-2014   #259
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Mr Tex,

Two guys on that offensive 5 were undrafted.
A third was dr as feed in the 8th round.

They went on to become multiple - time Probowler s and All-Pros.

The main thing is that they do need talent.

Keenum was not just any UDFA.
Some people thought he did not have enough of an arm, but that myth has been dispelled on the field.
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Old 05-28-2014   #260
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Did Kurt Warner have premium talents?
Why was that every team miss on him?
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