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Old 05-27-2014   #201
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by edwardc5637 View Post
Should have kept Shaub.
You need help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
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Old 05-27-2014   #202
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
First time starters have these kinds of issues. I'm not going to make excuses for Keenum because I don't think they're necessary. The only question now is does he come back with a sense of urgency and more information in his head and can he apply that to produce an improved performance for OB.

I don't think he knew how to make defenses pay for what they were doing to him. At least not at this level/speed. If he doesn't learn it then he has no future as an NFL QB because only the ones who can do that last any length of time.
Good points. Hell, just look at the 1st few games Steve Young started for SF. They were UGLY!

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I don't know about being a rookie in the NFL, but I know that in highschool and college, watching film as a young player is different than watching it as an established vet...

As a young player it's harder translate what you learn from watching film to what you see in live action because your head is still spinning. You don't fully understand what's going on.

I would imagine in the NFL it's similar, but muuuuuuuch harder.

You can watch all the film you want...study the whole playbook up and down...But that live action is a different animal...Even going out in practice against your defense or the scout team defense can be a big help...
I would think you would have better resources, and more of them, at the NFL level to learn your position. Not to mention more time since you don't have classes.
IMO, the game slows down seperately for each player. For some, it never does. I don't think it's something you can teach.

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Preach on my brother. Pay attention to Case's highlight reel Cloak posted. just about every throw on that highlight reel was him throwing the ball to a WR well outside of the hashes or just outside of the hashes - well away from the clutter in the middle. When he wasn't throwing those passes he was throwing way deep over the defense......away from the clutter in the middle.

Another thing to note is most times when he was throwing deep he was running around well outside of the pocket and/or he was in shotgun. Some of that is Sumlin's system ingrained in him.... constantly challenging deep & feeling most comfortable in shotgun..... but some of it is his limitations too; It's pretty clear he can't see well inside the pocket to throw those intermediate passes in the middle of the defense...He needs to be in shotgun or away from the bulk of where everyone is to see the field well. That AZ game where he nearly had 3 passes picked off b/c he was forced to throw it more in the middle of the defense also makes it pretty clear that he doesn't have the arm strength to pull off throwing in their a ton.

& sorry to say those seam passes in the middle to the TE's are a staple of OB's offense so Case is facing an uphill battle to even be on the roster this year.
Under the new CBA, is it even possible to see how much of an issue CK has in this area in OTA's and TC, or will it be in preseason going against scrubs?
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Old 05-27-2014   #203
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Once opposing defenses focused on keeping him inside the pocket... That is an important distinction. Keenum has some physical limitations that give defenses an advantage. That is an objective truth. Perhaps he can overcome them. His physical skill set simply reduces his margin for error and requires him to compensate in other areas. I am rooting for him. What I saw last year, though, is an excellent college QB and leader play his best football early. Then, as defenses scouted him, they forced him to do the things he can't do consistently- like throw intermediate passes from the pocket. Unless he can figure out how to do that consistently, he can not succeed in the NFL.
It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.
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Old 05-27-2014   #204
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
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Case still throws one of the best deep balls, outside shoulder ball placement.
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Old 05-27-2014   #205
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.
Kubiak seemed more of a checkers guy than chess master last season.
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Old 05-27-2014   #206
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Kubiak seemed more of a checkers guy than chess master last season.
Sad, but high degree of truth.
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Old 05-27-2014   #207
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.
It's no secret that the opponents stay home more often now on our play action roll-out.

When you have Foster on the shelf and Tate with 4 cracked ribs, defenses just don't respect your running game.

It makes the play action that much harder to execute.
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Old 05-27-2014   #208
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Then on regular plays, the pass-pro was lacking, the secondary can afford to cheat up more often.
If you pay attention to the receivers from both teams, you should notice that theirs were more open than ours, and it's not just because they were able to create more separarion.

It's a chain of effect that keeps snowballing, making it hard to watch.

Dang, we made Mcgloin looks like an All - pro, one has to wonder why OB didn't trade a 4th for him instead of drafting Savage.
Perhaps, the Raiders wanted AJ instead, LOL!
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Old 05-27-2014   #209
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
It's no secret that the opponents stay home more often now on our play action roll-out.
When you have Foster on the shelf and Tate with 4 cracked ribs, defenses just don't respect your running game.

It makes the play action that much harder to execute.
That's really all they had to do with 75% of Kubiak's offense. Stay at home and see which side executed better. Not to mention his incredibley stubborn insistence on being glaringly obvious on 90% of his play calling.

With what BO'B is saying, I'm not so sure that will be as big a deal. The short passing game will become his running game. IF the OL plays better.
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Old 05-27-2014   #210
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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It's all a chess game. If a defense focuses on keeping a QB in the pocket, there's a way to exploit that. I feel like O'Brien is the guy to figure out how to exploit it.
exactly there is a way to beat defenses that do that and keep them honest and then they can not always key in on keeping QB in the pocket. Problem was Kubiak was not open minded enough to go away from what he knew.
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Old 05-27-2014   #211
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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exactly there is a way to beat defenses that do that and keep them honest and then they can not always key in on keeping QB in the pocket. Problem was Kubiak was not open minded enough to go away from what he knew.
Amazing the "best GM in the NFL" got it so wrong about Kubiak, huh?
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Old 05-27-2014   #212
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

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Amazing the "best GM in the NFL" got it so wrong about Kubiak, huh?
I'm just going off of what i saw here which was an inability to adjust to players strengths, an inability to adapt to defenses who could stop his original game plan. Not to mention his success was very limited as far as wins and the play offs until we hired Wade. He may be a better O.C than a head coach. Maybe it was just to much for him and made him worse as an OC.
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Old 05-27-2014   #213
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Texans vs. Jags week 14.

I didn't have time to re-evaluate the plays of all 3 QBs; it has been awhile since I rewatched other portions of the games besides the time that Keenum was ln there.

I took a quick glance and noticed that Henne might have gotten more pressures than Keenum, while Schaub was pressured a little less.
But I cannot ascertain this as facts at this time.

What I can be sure of is that Henne was supported by a stronger running game, and more penalties from the Texans, bailing out the Jags O at times. His ST was also a hair better.
His numbers are somewhat equivalent to Case and Schaub, however.

Schaub was pressured a little less, and the receivers got open a bit more with fewer drops.

There was no real winner at the QB position for me until I can dig in more details.

It is true that Keenum can play better, but the same can also be said about the other two QBs on the field that day.
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Old 05-27-2014   #214
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Texans vs Jags week 14

1st drive at 8:43

Tate gained 4 before Keenum hit Hopkins for 16 despite being pressured.
Myers got beat right off to the bat to his right on play action off 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE.)
This also caused Brooks to lost it to the twist.
Keenum had to scramble to his left right after the 2-sec mark.
(Note that on play action, the pass is always slower to develop since the QB has to execute a fake hand-off first.
This is supposed to delay the pass rush at least a fraction of a second.)

On first down, W. Smith got beat, but Keenum was able to step up the pocket to fire a pass to AJ.
(The DT would have gotten to Case within 3 secs if he didn't ger rid of the ball.)
Case threw the ball correctly to the outside with the CB playing to the inside.
The ball went through AJ's hands, however.
People who wants to find fault might say that Keenum was not pin-point accurate.
IMHO, that ball needed to be caught.

On second down, Case hit Graham for 4 on a play action bootleg to his left.
The back side CB recognized the ball fake and stayed on task.

On third down, the Jags sent a six-man blitz.
The Texans had six to block.
There was no hot receiver open.
On the right side, despite having 5 to block 4 (3 actually, as the 4th rusher never engaged),
the Line got pushed back.
Case couldn't step up nor set up so he had to throw the ball off-balance while retreating with the 5th rusher being free.
The ball fell just short of Hopkins.
Should Case take a chance and throw the ball a hair earlier?
May be, but if only there was an open receiver in that split second.
But all four were tightly covered (the back stayed back to block the 6th rusher.)
In order to get the ball out earlier, Case would have to roll the dice and threw the ball before the receiver make his break.
But the DBs knew how to play their man within the 5-yd rule; they wouldn't let the two underneath guys get off the jam.
The chance for a completion is low (since the receivers weren't ready) and the chance for an INT is there.
It would have been nice if Graham can dominate the SS like Gronk or Hernandez or that KMart can get some separation.
As it was, it was basically a throw away like TK wanted.
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Old 05-27-2014   #215
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

2nd drive at 4:34

Tate ran the ball 3 times for 12 yards and a first down.
DJ then gained 6 before Case hook up with AJ for 6 on a receiver screen.

On first down, Keenum missed a wide-open Tate as he threw the ball behind Tate on a quick out without any pressure and a clear throwing lane.
Could it be that Keenum wanted to lead Tate to the inside since the Jags were in a standard 52 zone.
With Tate running toward the side line, he was running right toward the LCB.
If Tate turned around sooner (cutting his route short,) he would have room and time to square up to run over the defender or to make him miss.
At any rate, just chalk this up as an innacurate throw by Case.

Tate ran for 2 on second down.

On third down and 8, Case got sacked for -6 when both Newton and Smith got walked back and then allowed penetration to the inside.\
(Myers and Keenum were in a double-team.)
Jags rushed four.
Case stepped up and was throwing the ball, but it was batted down by Babin.
Babin hit the ball and Case's hand right before the 3-sec mark.
It was very close, but the ruling was that Babin hit Case's hand right before "forward" movement so they called it a sack.
Case saw AJ open 18 yards down field in a 52 zone, and was trying to go there.
AJ was the only receiver about to turn his head on the break
The other 4 routes were slow developing routes.
This, to me, is part of the problems.
You have an Oline that cannot sustain a four-man pass rush, why call all five slow developing routes?
...
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Old 05-27-2014   #216
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Third drive starting at 13:41 in the second quarter, Jags leading by 14.

On first down, Case just missed Griffin on a deep route that would have gained some thirty yards.
Griffin was held slightly (you can see the jersey being pulled just enough to slow down Griffin a hair.)
The ball left Keenum's at the 2-1/2 sec mark when both Myers and Brooks were pushed into him.
This is after Case performed a faked hand off to the RB.
Also, he had no room to step into his throw. He was throwing from right where he barely finished taking his dropback.
Myers was stepping on his toes right after the release.

Tate loss 2 on a called screen pass when the Jags played it really well.
The two LBs read W. Smith's release correctly and reacted very fast.
Tate had no chance as Smith couldn't get his block down.

On third down, the Jags rushed four.
With a single deep safety, they had two guys double-teaming AJ right off the bat while the other 4 defenders were tight on the rest of the Texans' weapons.
Keenum recongnized it and took off for 13 yards.

Tate gained 5 on first down, but can only mustard 1 on second down.
Hopkins was called for unecessary roughness as he punched the CB in the face mask.
Myers then was flagged for false start resulting in 3rd and 24.

Jags rushed four.
With six guys blocking, the Texans somehow managed to make life hard for the QB.
Both Brown and Smith were pushed way back.
The snap was on the left hash marks.
That's where Brown was 9-10 yards in the backfield at the 2-1/2 sec mark, while Smith was in the middle of the field.
If Case was to remain in place, he would have been meeting these two and then engulfed by the RDE.
Talk about ineptitude.
Scrambling out of the pocket, Case tried a last gap dump off to Tate, but the RB was caught in the back of Myers and fell down.
Texans might as well call a draw play to Tate on 3rd and 24 here, LOL!
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Old 05-27-2014   #217
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Fourth drive at 1:20

Keenum quickly found Graham for 9 on first down.

On the next play, the Jags rushed 4, but the Oline allowed a DT to enter the middle.
Case rolled left and found AJ wide open. He would have at least get a reception at the Jags 35-37 with an easy pass over the top.
For some reason, Case short armed the throw right to Allan Ball underneath.

It's not like the Jags figure Keenum out or anything; it was just a terrible throw, and a simple one at that. A decent high school QB can make that throw.

With 54 sec left, the Jags moved the ball for 39 yards before settling for a FG.

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Old 05-27-2014   #218
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Second half

Fifth drive at 14:39

After Tate gained 1, Case found him for 5 on second down.
Case released the ball around just before the 2-1/2 sec mark.
Brown lunged and was thrown to the ground; Newton also got beat off the edge.
The two DEs sandwiched Keenum and took him to the ground.
That's two QB hits on one play.

Keenum got up and calmly found AJ who had beaten the LCB's jam on the quick slant for 14.
Jags rushed 5, but Case let the ball go quickly.
It sure helps when your receiver can beat the defender.

After a 3-yd run by DJ, the Texans tried drop back play action.
Greg Jones missed the block and another defender was running around Myers.
With two defenders on either side of him and no time to spare, Keenum sent a pass to the far left corner.
As the single deep safety was there, he couldn't afford to throw the ball down the seam.
I don't think the LB had a finger on the ball; it looks like the ball just sail a little on Case.
It would have been easier if he had a little more room to properly step into the throw.
It was an inacurate pass, but a safe pass.
I'm not sure I like this 2-receiver pass pattern.
They had Hopkins on the right, running an in-and-out pattern to the right.
AJ was on the left, running some type of a seam route.
This allowed the deep safety to concentrate on double-teaming AJ.
If Hopkins was to run a post route, it would force the deep safety to stay home a little longer, giving the QB more space downfield to aim his throw.
Just my thinking.

On third and seven, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Keenum read the free blitzing LB off the edge and properly went to KMart on the hot route.
He threw the ball before Martin made the break.
The ball went to the spot of a curl route while Martin made the break on a quick in route.
If that was supposed to be a quick in then it was a terrible throw by Case.
If that was a curl route then it was on the money.
Yes, there was a free blitzer, but Case got the ball out in "plenty" of time.
I don't think the blitzer had any influence on the precision of the throw.
Punt.

...
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Old 05-27-2014   #219
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Sixth drive at 9:49

Case read cover 4 and properly sent the ball to AJ on a 10-yd curl.
AJ gained more YAC for a total of 27 to the Jags 19.

On first down, Case threw the ball accurately to AJ on a 5yd stop route, but he dropped the ball.

On second down, Tate gained 3 to set up third and 7.

The Texans tried a quick fade to Hopkins in the left corner.
The pass was right there (about 1-2 yards inbound,) but Hopkins landed out of bound.

Whether one wants a more perfect pass by Case or a better job by Hopkins, the Jags did not beat the pass play.
The Texans just didn't connect.

...
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Old 05-27-2014   #220
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Default Re: Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?

Seventh drive at 6:12 trailing by 14 now.

Jags rushed 4.
On first down, the Texans got beat by the twist again.
(This is a glaring weakness of the Oline all year long.)
Whether it was on Brooks or Harris, Case got hit before the 2-sec mark.
His ball went off target toward Griffin.

On second down, the spot of the snap was in the middle of the field.
Harris was pushed 8 yards into the backfield to the middle before the 2-sec mark.
Of the 5 targets, none was open; some weren't even ready for the ball.
Case bought some time with his feet and delivered the ball accurately to Graham near the first down marker.
He dropped the ball.

On third and ten, the Jags sent a 5-man blitz.
Case correctly went to the hot receiver AJ on the right; the only one open and ready on the quick slant.
I can't see whether it was KMart or Hopkins in the slot with AJ on the outside.
The Jags played an odd 5-1 zone.
The nickel back certainly did not respect our slot receiver's speed.
He gambled and took a quick step forward and jumped on the slant, limiting it to just 4.
Also, it was too bad that Case's progression was from left to right.
IMO, he felt like he didn't have time to wait any longer for the 5th read on a blitz.
Also, if he trusted the line a little more on this particular play, he might have had a TD in the far right corner.
But, it's far from easy to get to your 5th read on a blitz.

...

Kubiak decided to go with Schaub for the rest of the game.
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