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View Poll Results: Thumbs up or down on Tom Savage at 4.135
Up 112 83.58%
Down 22 16.42%
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Old 05-28-2014   #361
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by sandman View Post
That poor decision making gets mistaken for "heart" and "passion" for "trying to make something happen". Favre may be an HoFer, but he threw a ton of stupid INT's throughout his entire career because he was trying to force the action, extend plays, and hit the home run ball with every throw. A smart QB learns when it is the best decision to throw it away and not try to extend every play. It's not sexy. It's not glamorous. But it's smart football.
if case were to break the sacks and interceptions record with a bust in canton and a superbowl ring ... is that a bad thing? you're kind of arguing against yourself in this post. favre was THE gunslinger. reckless, usually dumb, cost himself some big games - but he sure won a lot of games and did win the big one. considering the sh1t-storm he got thrown into during his brief stretch, case actually had respectable or better numbers for a "rookie" - hardly what you'd expect from a chuck and duck qb.

to get back more towards the topic, keenum vs savage should be very interesting for their arms. as we've seen and is already a highlight during OTA's ... few greats can throw a better deep rain-maker than keenum. eyes closed, on the run, past double coverage - dude can float it in stride 50+yds down the field. on the other hand savage has the best arm in camp. that statement should make anyone blink when the others are veterans(ish), because arm strength/velocity is like every other aspect - it takes a big leap with age and pro training. we dont exactly have cannons on the roster, but if savage is already ahead of the pro's, how high is his ceiling?
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Old 05-28-2014   #362
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by TexansFanatic View Post
I don't dislike David Carr, but I don't respect him either.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that your success is commensurate to the work you put in.

A twelve year old kid with his first job at the ice cream parlor could tell you that.

I recall John McClain stating quite plainly in a radio interview early in Carr's career that Carr was not the textbook leader who is the first to show up in the morning and the last to leave at night.

That's when it was first clear to me that our golden boy wasn't earning his millions.

Even a 23 year old kid knows that being handed $50 million comes with some expectations.

To me it's almost like Carr stole that money by not putting in the hours and it should have been obvious to him that that's what was expected of him.

But, alas, this has been discussed ad nauseum and I'll hang up and listen...
To me there were hints of the foundation was not stable and the Texans knew it .

1. Bringing his Dad to work must have gone over really well with the vets .
2. Drafting Dave Ragone in round 3 in 2003 makes me think they were trying to light a fire under Carr .
3. Bringing in Victor Riley at LT , possibly the worst LT in history , makes me think the teams brass , except for McNair , didn't think it mattered who played on the OL . A 1st grader could read Greek better than Carr could read a defense .
4. I think McNair got way to close to Carr and cost the Texans a shot a QBs in 04 and 05 .
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Old 05-28-2014   #363
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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And as part of the same discussion, being smart and going down when you know the play is over gets mistaken for being unwilling to take a hit. It's silly. Manning and Brady both drop to the ground like a sack of potatoes if they deem the play not viable. When they think they can still make the play they'll take the shot (as did Schaub).
If they were playing poker they would be betting too much on bad hands .
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Old 05-28-2014   #364
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
if case were to break the sacks and interceptions record with a bust in canton and a superbowl ring ... is that a bad thing? you're kind of arguing against yourself in this post. favre was THE gunslinger. reckless, usually dumb, cost himself some big games - but he sure won a lot of games and did win the big one. considering the sh1t-storm he got thrown into during his brief stretch, case actually had respectable or better numbers for a "rookie" - hardly what you'd expect from a chuck and duck qb.

to get back more towards the topic, keenum vs savage should be very interesting for their arms. as we've seen and is already a highlight during OTA's ... few greats can throw a better deep rain-maker than keenum. eyes closed, on the run, past double coverage - dude can float it in stride 50+yds down the field. on the other hand savage has the best arm in camp. that statement should make anyone blink when the others are veterans(ish), because arm strength/velocity is like every other aspect - it takes a big leap with age and pro training. we dont exactly have cannons on the roster, but if savage is already ahead of the pro's, how high is his ceiling?
This whole Savage having a cannon for an arm to me is overrated. It reminds of the show Playmakers ESPN had where their star QB well ill let you guys see for yourselves.

Skip to 19:47.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1CqPqy_Ic
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Old 05-28-2014   #365
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by revan View Post
This whole Savage having a cannon for an arm to me is overrated. It reminds of the show Playmakers ESPN had where their star QB well ill let you guys see for yourselves.

Skip to 19:47.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1CqPqy_Ic
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Old 05-28-2014   #366
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by revan View Post
This whole Savage having a cannon for an arm to me is overrated. It reminds of the show Playmakers ESPN had where their star QB well ill let you guys see for yourselves.

Skip to 19:47.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1CqPqy_Ic
cute, but irrelevant. arm strength is a talent. that lob into the cart is an interception. both stafford and cutler are current proof that a cannon can make up for other deficiencies if you're working hard enough to be good at your craft. accuracy is a better focal point for your argument, and one of keenum's strengths when hitting swings and underneath routes - he's resulted a better 'catch and run' than yates or schaub because of his ability to lead receivers into space. if savage can pick that up, combined with his arm strength, it's a montana-esque game changer.

sports science diagrams a real world 5mph difference in velocity between a reception and interception ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXNMY3X62zI

edit: i dont necessarily mean you revan, but i hate when people confuse arm strength with "how far can he throw it?". random guy in the parking lot can wind up and toss the ball 55 yards. arm strength has ZERO to do with distance. arm strength is max velocity and the ability to reduce velocity - as well as change trajectory accordingly when needed. targeting a 15 yard back shoulder sideline pass. sending a rope into the endzone from 18 yards out across the middle. a hard line drive over the linebacker against a tampa 2. that's arm strength.
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Old 05-28-2014   #367
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
if case were to break the sacks and interceptions record with a bust in canton and a superbowl ring ... is that a bad thing? you're kind of arguing against yourself in this post. favre was THE gunslinger. reckless, usually dumb, cost himself some big games - but he sure won a lot of games and did win the big one. considering the sh1t-storm he got thrown into during his brief stretch, case actually had respectable or better numbers for a "rookie" - hardly what you'd expect from a chuck and duck qb.

to get back more towards the topic, keenum vs savage should be very interesting for their arms. as we've seen and is already a highlight during OTA's ... few greats can throw a better deep rain-maker than keenum. eyes closed, on the run, past double coverage - dude can float it in stride 50+yds down the field. on the other hand savage has the best arm in camp. that statement should make anyone blink when the others are veterans(ish), because arm strength/velocity is like every other aspect - it takes a big leap with age and pro training. we dont exactly have cannons on the roster, but if savage is already ahead of the pro's, how high is his ceiling?
Favre spent 20 years in the NFL, and only won one SB in his 5th year. Never made it back to the SB after his 6th year. That was 14 more years of trying and failing to get another one. He not only holds the all-time record for interceptions, but for sacks and fumbles as well. He was successful in the sense of winning games and getting to the playoffs in spite of his recklessness and lack of discipline.

To bring it back to CK... Favre was the exception, not the norm, and not one that I would want CK to try and emulate. I love the heart and passion, but not the 20 yard sacks. If he expects to legitimately be the starter on this team, he has to play smarter. Can he? Don't know. But I'm personally not going to make the assumption that because all of the other factors were not in his favor last year, that he probably can. Until he proves otherwise, he is not a starting QB in this league. Of course, right now none of the QB's on the roster are...
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Old 05-28-2014   #368
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

let's not lose perspective, favre was the epitome of chaos, but he had 2 losing seasons in those 20 years - one of which was his final season. he only had 2 .500 seasons. that's 15 winning seasons.
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Old 05-28-2014   #369
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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let's not lose perspective, favre was the epitome of chaos, but he had 2 losing seasons in those 20 years - one of which was his final season. he only had 2 .500 seasons. that's 15 winning seasons.
I thought we wanted Super Bowls, not winning seasons.
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Old 05-28-2014   #370
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by revan View Post
This whole Savage having a cannon for an arm to me is overrated. It reminds of the show Playmakers ESPN had where their star QB well ill let you guys see for yourselves.

Skip to 19:47.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1CqPqy_Ic
Arm strength is only one piece of the puzzle... and I agree that it is often overrated.

arm strength, quickness of release, mental processing, and footwork all work together to determine the size of the window a quarterback has to throw into- and, then it only matters to the extent that the QB is accurate.

My enthusiasm for Savage is based on the fact that we did not pay a premium for him and that he appears to have a strong arm, a quick release, solid footwork, and the elements of an accurate passer... Combine all of that with his story (which goes a long way to explain the holes in his game and suggests reason for significant improvement), his perspective regarding his problems in college, and confidence in the head coach to teach, and I am very excited about Savage's potential.
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Old 05-28-2014   #371
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
cute, but irrelevant. arm strength is a talent. that lob into the cart is an interception. both stafford and cutler are current proof that a cannon can make up for other deficiencies if you're working hard enough to be good at your craft. accuracy is a better focal point for your argument, and one of keenum's strengths when hitting swings and underneath routes - he's resulted a better 'catch and run' than yates or schaub because of his ability to lead receivers into space. if savage can pick that up, combined with his arm strength, it's a montana-esque game changer.

sports science diagrams a real world 5mph difference in velocity between a reception and interception ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXNMY3X62zI

edit: i dont necessarily mean you revan, but i hate when people confuse arm strength with "how far can he throw it?". random guy in the parking lot can wind up and toss the ball 55 yards. arm strength has ZERO to do with distance. arm strength is max velocity and the ability to reduce velocity - as well as change trajectory accordingly when needed. targeting a 15 yard back shoulder sideline pass. sending a rope into the endzone from 18 yards out across the middle. a hard line drive over the linebacker against a tampa 2. that's arm strength.
I'll add something to arm stregth.

Mainly, you want to get the ball from point A to point B in the least amount of time.

1. Point B is the tricky part.
Sometimes, it's between the numbers of the receiver; sometimes it's up high, down low, to the outside furthest from the defender but still within the catching radius of the receiver; some time it's somewhere between two defenders, etc.

2. A QB may have a cannon of an arm and zip the ball from A to B in half a second might not do the best as another who needs .45 of a second if the time it takes him to identify the target and to get set to deliver the ball takes .1 second longer.

3. The time it takes to identify the target might be even more important as the sooner the QB is able to do that, the more time he can afford to identify danger as well.
He will also has a hair more time to get ready to deliver the ball before the pocket gets muddy, and to avoid the pass being tipped at the line and to keep safety help further from the target a little longer.
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Old 05-28-2014   #372
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Arm strength is only one piece of the puzzle... and I agree that it is often overrated.

arm strength, quickness of release, mental processing, and footwork all work together to determine the size of the window a quarterback has to throw into- and, then it only matters to the extent that the QB is accurate.

My enthusiasm for Savage is based on the fact that we did not pay a premium for him and that he appears to have a strong arm, a quick release, solid footwork, and the elements of an accurate passer... Combine all of that with his story (which goes a long way to explain the holes in his game and suggests reason for significant improvement), his perspective regarding his problems in college, and confidence in the head coach to teach, and I am very excited about Savage's potential.
I like his potential as well, but the mental part he needs to work on is the hardest part.
We've seen a lot of guys who weren't able to put it together.

It takes time.
I remember reading that Bill Walsh didn't let Montana to go to the fifth read until some three years after entering the league.
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Old 05-28-2014   #373
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Favre spent 20 years in the NFL, and only won one SB in his 5th year. Never made it back to the SB after his 6th year. That was 14 more years of trying and failing to get another one...
How long's it been since Brady won his last Super Bowl? I know he's won three to Favre's one, but if 14 years mean anything, what does 10 years mean?
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Old 05-28-2014   #374
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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My enthusiasm for Savage is based on the fact that we did not pay a premium for him and that he appears to have a strong arm, a quick release, solid footwork, and the elements of an accurate passer... Combine all of that with his story (which goes a long way to explain the holes in his game and suggests reason for significant improvement), his perspective regarding his problems in college, and confidence in the head coach to teach, and I am very excited about Savage's potential.
I pretty much agree. He looks like a 1st rounder, without the production. The reason for that lack of production & the growth we hope he's gone through points to him being the steal of this draft. In my mind, it's like we got a first rounder who fell, not because of some drug problem, not because of some rape allegations, not because he took money he knew he shouldn't have, but because he was so danged arrogant that he taught himself a very valuable lesson.

& if it doesn't work out, eh... damn near a 5th round pick.
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Old 05-28-2014   #375
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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I'll add something to arm stregth.
The main point, for me, about arm strength is that I now the QB won't always be able to set his feet, rotate his hips, & follow through on every throw.

A lot of the other things that people like about arm strength; throwing the ball 65 yards on a rope, rifling the ball into the flats, squeezing the ball into tight coverage... a smart QB can account for most of that, most of the time one way or another.

But getting that ball out 10-15 yards in the middle of the field with 300lb men at your feet & a 270 lb truck running through your back... arm strength helps.
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Old 05-28-2014   #376
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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And as part of the same discussion, being smart and going down when you know the play is over gets mistaken for being unwilling to take a hit. It's silly. Manning and Brady both drop to the ground like a sack of potatoes if they deem the play not viable. When they think they can still make the play they'll take the shot (as did Schaub).
Of all of Schaub's faults toughness wasn't one of them. Schaub is a very tough guy. I've seen him look down the barrel take huge hits and deliver the ball.
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Old 05-28-2014   #377
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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How long's it been since Brady won his last Super Bowl? I know he's won three to Favre's one, but if 14 years mean anything, what does 10 years mean?
Brady has been in 5 Super Bowls. Most recently two years ago. Favre went to two back-to-back in his 5th and 6th years and never again. IMHO, he would have been there a lot more had he played with any level of discipline. But he sure was exciting!
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Old 05-28-2014   #378
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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The main point, for me, about arm strength is that I now the QB won't always be able to set his feet, rotate his hips, & follow through on every throw.

A lot of the other things that people like about arm strength; throwing the ball 65 yards on a rope, rifling the ball into the flats, squeezing the ball into tight coverage... a smart QB can account for most of that, most of the time one way or another.

But getting that ball out 10-15 yards in the middle of the field with 300lb men at your feet & a 270 lb truck running through your back... arm strength helps.
If you can get the ball out before they get to you; yes, sure.
The thing is not all things are equal to all QBs,.

Like I said, I'm a Bill Walsh kind of guy, not a Jon Madden guy.
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Old 05-28-2014   #379
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I like his potential as well, but the mental part he needs to work on is the hardest part.
We've seen a lot of guys who weren't able to put it together.

It takes time.
I remember reading that Bill Walsh didn't let Montana to go to the fifth read until some three years after entering the league.
If Montana was playing behind the Texans OL last yr he wouldn't have gotten to his 2-3rd read much less his 5th read.
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Old 05-28-2014   #380
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Default Re: Selection 4.135: Tom Savage QB

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I pretty much agree. He looks like a 1st rounder, without the production. The reason for that lack of production & the growth we hope he's gone through points to him being the steal of this draft. In my mind, it's like we got a first rounder who fell, not because of some drug problem, not because of some rape allegations, not because he took money he knew he shouldn't have, but because he was so danged arrogant that he taught himself a very valuable lesson.

& if it doesn't work out, eh... damn near a 5th round pick.

“It is necessary ... for a man to go away by himself ... to sit on a rock ... and ask, 'Who am I, where have I been, and where am I going?”
― Carl Sandburg

Self-reflection can be a ***** sometimes..& moreso than his physical tools, his personal growth is what makes him the potential steal of this draft. Simply put, most guys Savage's age haven't faced adversity nor can they admit to mistakes they've made until it's too late...so when they get to the league and finally experience it, it breaks them in half........the talent level is irrelevant (see VY..Clarett...Russell etc).

& listening to Savage speak on his college career and time out of football, you can just tell that the guy spent alot of time self-reflecting. & in that regrad i'm fairly confident that Savage's personal growth is legit.
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