CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I hope this is not just another campaign speech. The past dictates that the Texans have a pattern of REPEATING their mistakes.......far beyond the David Carr situation.
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Bob McNair: Texans wont repeat mistakes we made with David Carr
- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
- Start date
We werent able to give Carr the kind of protection we thought he should have, McNair said. I dont put a lot of blame on him.
*****
Is that an apology for screwing up David's career I'm hearing from McNair ? Maybe they are gonna take his little brother so they can make everything right with the Carr family ?
*****
Is that an apology for screwing up David's career I'm hearing from McNair ? Maybe they are gonna take his little brother so they can make everything right with the Carr family ?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
texanhead08
All Pro
David isn't blameless in his lack of success, but the organization didn't exactly give him a chance to develop either. The lack of talent on the oline, bad offensive philosophy, and piss poor coaching played a role too.
I remember Steve Mckinney saying that Chris Palmer had our WR's running option routes in 2002 and you already have a rookie QB with a bad expansion team oline and you are running these slow developing plays instead of routes to get the ball out of his hand fast.
I remember Steve Mckinney saying that Chris Palmer had our WR's running option routes in 2002 and you already have a rookie QB with a bad expansion team oline and you are running these slow developing plays instead of routes to get the ball out of his hand fast.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Our OL would've looked a lot different had our bookend OTs not had injury issues.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Mario Williams wasn't exactly a resounding success either. The top DE since Peppers who they passed on the first time. Fast forward to 2014 does anyone doubt McNair & Company can repeat their mistakes again? seriously it could happen. here's a novel idea how about trading down, haven't tried that before so would not be repeating same mistake again 
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
I'd still rather have Mario Williams over the other options in 2006.
Mario Williams wasn't exactly a resounding success either. The top DE since Peppers who they passed on the first time. Fast forward to 2014 does anyone doubt McNair & Company can repeat their mistakes again? seriously it could happen. here's a novel idea how about trading down, haven't tried that before so would not be repeating same mistake again
Is there an expectation to win in the locker room?
That's the question to me. If the Texans locker room does not expect to win in 2014, then nothing's changed & whether we take Mario Williams, or David Carr, it won't make a difference.
If they're looking for a QB to give them a chance to win, or their #1 pick to be our defense, we're going down the same road. & unless we get a real special player, there's no way he can live up to that kind of 1-1 expectations.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Sounds like old Bob is doing a little retracting from his December comments, "We are NOT rebuilding, we're a playoff team", statement.
I think there is no coincidence at all that the day after Blake Bortles Pro Day, the Texans signed QB Ryan Fitzpatrick. A veteran with 68 career starts in the NFL. Bob's 4/27 comments and the signing of Fitz go hand in hand. Drafting Bortles is kind of a NO brainer and don't expect to see Blake until the 2nd half of the season at the earliest.
I think there is no coincidence at all that the day after Blake Bortles Pro Day, the Texans signed QB Ryan Fitzpatrick. A veteran with 68 career starts in the NFL. Bob's 4/27 comments and the signing of Fitz go hand in hand. Drafting Bortles is kind of a NO brainer and don't expect to see Blake until the 2nd half of the season at the earliest.
double post
Help me connect the dots.
How is it not rebuilding if we're not going to make the same mistakes we made with Carr?
How does signing Fitzpatrick a day after Bortles pro day point to drafting Bortles?
Why won't Bortles (or whoever our newest QB will be) not start until the 2nd half of the season? This one puzzles me the most. If it's a protection issue (like Bob says in the article, but I never believed it was a protection issue) what if we have it fixed before we start the season?
What if Borltes proves to give us a better chance to beat Washington (who's going through their own struggles), should we start Fitzpatrick because we paid him "so" much?
What if we're 0-6 thanks to spotty QB play & Bortles is the only healthy QB we have on the roster?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Maybe then....
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Blameful, imo.
In 2006, the team took 43 sacks total, 41 on Carr (a 5 year starter).
In 2007, the team took 22 sacks total on 60 more attempts.
We added Jordan Black and lost Zach Wiegert (OTs), and our first 4 draft picks were Amobi Okoye, Jacoby Jones, Fred Bennett, and Brandon Harrison.
So was it the offensive line, or was it the QB (Schaub/Rosenfels vs Carr)?
In 2007, Carr took 13 sacks in just 136 attempts for Carolina, a ~10% sack rate. Transposing to 2007 Texans attempts, that would've been 51 sacks.
You'd better draft pocket presence, because its darned near impossible to teach at this level.
I saw your replies... didn't see any answers.
Just because we don't repeat the mistakes made with Carr does not mean we are rebuilding.
Signing Fitzpatrick the day after Bortles pro day does not in any way signal we're taking Bortles over any other QB in this draft.
Our rookie QB will start day 1 if he's ready. Just because Carr wasn't, doesn't mean that Bortles (or whoever we draft) won't be. Three years later, Carr wasn't ready to start, doesn't mean our new QB won't start for three years.
But how can you say that when the free agents market rewarded him with the top dollar contract of any defensive player ever at that point in time ? The NFL ultimately is a business, and the market spoke loud and clear about Mario's value when his services became available.Mario Williams wasn't exactly a resounding success either. The top DE since Peppers who they passed on the first time. Fast forward to 2014 does anyone doubt McNair & Company can repeat their mistakes again? seriously it could happen. here's a novel idea how about trading down, haven't tried that before so would not be repeating same mistake again
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
A specific market known for its spoiled goods. I find it very difficult to have listened to a rudderless voice coming out of the wilderness...........the wilderness known as Buffalo. I suspect the Jills have most likely been making most of their important decisions over the years............Now that the Jills are no longer in existence, what will they do?........what will they do?
Texian
Hall of Fame
I'm just going with what Bob said this week, unlike Carr, a Texans rookie QB today, would sit and learn, behind a vet QB. Pretty easy to understand if you ask me.
If that's what you said, we would have a different set of questions (as I don't believe that's what McNair said).
But you said that we're rebuilding because we don't want to make the same mistakes we made with Carr.
I'm asking how you connect the two totally irrelevant happenstances.
You said signing Fitzpatrick points to us drafting Bortles...... again two ideas I'd like to understand how you connect.
You said since we're not going to start our young QB until we're able to protect our young QB means our newest QB won't start until some time after the midway point of the season. I'm asking what if we can protect him as early as week 1, or week 2, or week 5, or any time before week 8?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Did you not read post #1 and what Bob said in the interview this week with Michael David Smith? If not, return to go and read post 1.
All this tells me, is that McNair admits that David was not ready. Has absolutely no bearing on whether our next rookie QB is ready or not. However, if he is not ready this statement suggests he will not start.
This is still talking about David Carr. It only pertains to our next QB if he is not ready. If he is ready & the team is good enough to support him it is possible that he'll start like Russell Wilson did, or Andrew Luck, or Matthew Stafford.
This is where the reporter strays from reporting the news & adds his own commentary. However, McNair's comments do not suggest what he believes at all. They may be drafting him with the idea that he will compete for the starting job. McNair's comments about David Carr have nothing to do with the Texans "ideas" about a new QB, Fitzpatrick, Keenum, or Tj.
If McNair's comments suggests wanting a strong offensive line, that could also have draft implications.
That last statement, the one that starts with "if" also suggests the possibility that the Texans won't draft a QB in the 2014 draft at all. After all, the Texans have not had much success drafting QBs period. But have had success with QBs they've traded for or signing veteran QBs.
Nitrofish
Let The Big Fish Eat!
Actually he said this months ago.
Goatcheese
Texan
Only on Texans Talk could a player averaging nearly 10 sacks/season (despite injuries) be considered not "exactly a resounding success."
For reference: Sacks per game through first 8 seasons
Mario Williams 0.67
Julius pepper 0.66
For reference: Sacks per game through first 8 seasons
Mario Williams 0.67
Julius pepper 0.66
No, some dumbass thought it would be a good idea to have it in November this year.
On "rebuilding" or not...
[IMGwidthsize=300]http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors2/douglas-adams-writer-quote-if-it-looks-like-a-duck-and-quacks-like-a.jpg[/IMG]
[IMGwidthsize=300]http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors2/douglas-adams-writer-quote-if-it-looks-like-a-duck-and-quacks-like-a.jpg[/IMG]
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
As did O'Brien: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2317567#post2317567
Yep. Mr. McNair & Rick got the bad news after O'Brien and his staff finished their roster/player evaluations.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Yes it is where were you?Are you satisfied that we traded all 2014 picks for picks in 2015? My sources tell me we are going to move up and take Winston..if he is not in prison.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
That's my point and that's why I still think TB is the best qb in this draft and should be taken early. Pocket presence and poise matters. Knowing situational football is a great assett. If its 3 and 3 on the negative side of the field and you can throw a bomb or dump it off and move the chains,that's situational football. Even the best qbs in the nfl complete balls 30 yds down the field at less than 50%. Move the chains,know the situation on down and distance and make the plays when neccessary.
Davis Carr as a college sr had pocket issues like his brother. Even when the line gave him protaction, he ran out of bounds behind the los. The dude because of his family obligations was not the 1st guy in and the last to leave. All that stuff matters in picking a qb.
kingtexan
All Pro
Rep.
Organization didn't give him what he needed to succeed, and CP was a QB killer from word go.
Carr developed some bad habits and shoulders some responsibility, but majority is on the team. Should have fortified the O-line and let him sit, before throwing him to the wolves.
Quote:
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 27, 2014, 11:55 AM EDT
In 2002, the Texans used the first draft pick in franchise history on David Carr, who was beaten up while playing on a bad team and never developed into the kind of player Houston wanted him to be. Now the Texans own the first overall pick again, and owner Bob McNair says his team has learned from its mistakes.
McNair says the Texans now realize that a rookie quarterback shouldn’t play until he’s ready, and a veteran quarterback as a placeholder can be a wise investment.
“I think the main thing I look back on is that we should have had a veteran quarterback in there,” McNair said. “We should have let him start the season and let David learn what it takes to be an NFL quarterback.”
That suggests that if the Texans draft a quarterback next week, they’ll be drafting him with the idea that he’ll sit on the bench and learn while Ryan Fitzpatrick or Case Keenum or T.J. Yates opens the season as the starter. McNair also wants to make sure the Texans can provide a young quarterback better protection than the expansion team’s offensive line gave Carr.
“We weren’t able to give Carr the kind of protection we thought he should have,” McNair said. “I don’t put a lot of blame on him.”
If the Texans do draft a quarterback, they have to hope they’re not making excuses for his failures a dozen years down the road.
I call Bull**** on the 2 highlighted areas. McNair was more interested in recouping his investment by selling seats and jerseys than on winning games or really building a successful team from the inside out. He drafted the pretty boy QB and trotted him out there as a face of the franchise. McNair was much more interested in money than wins. The Texans were absolutely able to get some protection for Carr, but O-line isn't a sexy position and doesn't sell tickets. We're 12 yrs. into this franchise now and the Texans have never made the O-line a high priority.
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 27, 2014, 11:55 AM EDT
In 2002, the Texans used the first draft pick in franchise history on David Carr, who was beaten up while playing on a bad team and never developed into the kind of player Houston wanted him to be. Now the Texans own the first overall pick again, and owner Bob McNair says his team has learned from its mistakes.
McNair says the Texans now realize that a rookie quarterback shouldn’t play until he’s ready, and a veteran quarterback as a placeholder can be a wise investment.
“I think the main thing I look back on is that we should have had a veteran quarterback in there,” McNair said. “We should have let him start the season and let David learn what it takes to be an NFL quarterback.”
That suggests that if the Texans draft a quarterback next week, they’ll be drafting him with the idea that he’ll sit on the bench and learn while Ryan Fitzpatrick or Case Keenum or T.J. Yates opens the season as the starter. McNair also wants to make sure the Texans can provide a young quarterback better protection than the expansion team’s offensive line gave Carr.
“We weren’t able to give Carr the kind of protection we thought he should have,” McNair said. “I don’t put a lot of blame on him.”
If the Texans do draft a quarterback, they have to hope they’re not making excuses for his failures a dozen years down the road.
I call Bull**** on the 2 highlighted areas. McNair was more interested in recouping his investment by selling seats and jerseys than on winning games or really building a successful team from the inside out. He drafted the pretty boy QB and trotted him out there as a face of the franchise. McNair was much more interested in money than wins. The Texans were absolutely able to get some protection for Carr, but O-line isn't a sexy position and doesn't sell tickets. We're 12 yrs. into this franchise now and the Texans have never made the O-line a high priority.
Norg
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
excuse Carr last year here he had a pretty decent NFL Oline
if I remember Wade smith a rookie Winston and ma Kenny was a decent center but he was earlier
either way near the end after we got past all our Oline injury issues we had a decent line
look all the NFL teams go through Oline issues they key is or what it seems like now days u don't invest in a lot of high draft picks in your line
U get your highest payed LT and a good center and bam slap in some guards and RT and hope for the best
if I remember Wade smith a rookie Winston and ma Kenny was a decent center but he was earlier
either way near the end after we got past all our Oline injury issues we had a decent line
look all the NFL teams go through Oline issues they key is or what it seems like now days u don't invest in a lot of high draft picks in your line
U get your highest payed LT and a good center and bam slap in some guards and RT and hope for the best
Vinny was once quoted as saying the Texans were a marketing company with a football division.
And that perspective came from decisions like starting David Carr, who looked good in a Texans uniform and was immediately made the "face of the franchise" from the point he was drafted in April 2002. I've got Texans merchandise from that period - between the draft and pre-season - that has Carr in majestic poses with his chiseled chin and dude looked like a model. How could they NOT start him after all the publicity?
While I cannot say I feel sorry for David Carr - he did get paid tens of millions, after all - I can say that he was never put in position to be taught and molded to succeed as an NFL QB. Dude had potential, but it was never fully reached because of the inherent dysfunctional nature of an expansion team.
I'll give it to McNair for owning up to mistakes, though. A lot of owners would never admit such a thing, but he clearly feels some regret, and I have to respect him for his honesty in that regard.
Texian
Hall of Fame
As long as Bob McNair has this "WIN NOW" mentality and "I will spend whatever it takes," attitude his Houston Texans will continue to wallow in the mire and the fans will continue to sing, "C'mon Bob Light My Fire, The time to hesitate is through."
The day that McNair begins to plan for tomorrow, including responsible long term money management will be the day that WIN NOW will start to take care of itself.
The day that McNair begins to plan for tomorrow, including responsible long term money management will be the day that WIN NOW will start to take care of itself.
drs23
Veteran
What makes you think the fruit of that foresight isn't taking shape now? I see the moves they made(shedding several overpaid contracts)/didn't make (throwing money away in FA) as a positive start toward turning this franchise around. I think anyone with an open mind, sans an agenda (which I KNOW is too much for some to give up).
I would agree that's it's too early to know for sure but it seems to me they've been proactive as far as the cap is concerned and we only have to wait a little over a week to see how the draft plays out.
I'm off the Kool-Aid but at the same time am willing to take a wait and see stance before I'm ready to pull the pitch fork out. I know that's not an overly popular stance. So be it.
Repped
Hopefully McNair has learned from his mistakes and builds a solid foundation 1st.
I admire your stance.
I wish I felt the same way, but a decade of medicore at best football has jaded me to the point I expect the Texans org to screw the pooch.
What would it take for you to pull out the pitch forks. The pitch forks should've come out after the 6-10 2010 season.
Texian
Hall of Fame
The term long term planning has a different meaning for some, with or without an agenda. I too, think it's to early to tell about the new changes. However the initial transactions are somewhat concerning to me.
Releasing Daniels and signing Graham at 80% of Daniel's salary is something I wouldn't have done. Especially with Graham rating as one of the worst at his position by PFF. By keeping Daniels another year and letting him be a FA in 15' a 16' comp would've been in order.
The same is true with Manning. Keeping Manning for a year and then letting him become a FA would've been another comp pick in 2016. Why throw these comp picks away? These early transactions have been short and long term steps backwards for the Texans.
The reason the Texans have NOT thrown money away in free agency these last two years is because they haven't had the money available to throw away at free agency these last two years.
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PapaL
Loose Screw
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I hate hearing the excuses for David Carr. Most franchises that have the #1 pick don't have great protection for a young QB. That's why they have the #1 pick.
Carr didn't study film nearly enough and he has admitted that himself. He didn't study defenses and become a master at recognizing coverages and take on that leadership role. Sure, the Texans had some negligence at the Oline, but the Steelers had that problem for years with Ben and so did that Packers with Rodgers and both guys played through it and had some great seasons. Carr was never going to be a good QB no matter where he played or what the Texans did.
Carr didn't study film nearly enough and he has admitted that himself. He didn't study defenses and become a master at recognizing coverages and take on that leadership role. Sure, the Texans had some negligence at the Oline, but the Steelers had that problem for years with Ben and so did that Packers with Rodgers and both guys played through it and had some great seasons. Carr was never going to be a good QB no matter where he played or what the Texans did.
Goatcheese
Texan
We won back to back division titles and had playoff wins in 2011 and 2012. Maybe you should reevaluate the things that make you whip out the pitchforks.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Like everything you've to take the good with bad. The good is what you've mentioned above. The bad is, it happened when Peyton was sitting on the sideline, Jeff Fisher had resigned, since then Andrew Luck is now the Colts QB, Gus Bradley is Jags HC, Ken Whisenhunt is Titans HC and the Texans don't have a QB.
badboy
Hall of Fame
OD was 20% better than "one of the worst" & you want him? They must think the players replacing these two will be better. It might be wrong to assume Graham will start.
Texian
Hall of Fame
You missed the point. According to PFF Daniels ranked 26th and Graham 56th. By keeping Daniels for another year you gain a comp pick in 2016. Now you don't and you're NOT any better off for it.
badboy
Hall of Fame
26 is much better than 56. Perhaps OD's injury history was a factor.
Conducting business based on whether you may or may not get a comp pick two years down the road is sheer folly