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Old 05-03-2014   #201
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Clowney had his best season ever the year after Melvin Ingram left, so perhaps you don't have any idea what you're talking about? Go watch some tape.

Actually his best season ever was Devin Taylor's senior year. I think that just illustrates my point even more.

I don't downgrade a guy for playing in the MAC, but watching Mack play against Mewhort or a team like Baylor and not show up as a pass rusher when facing decent talent wasn't encouraging, and why I like him better as the ILB next to Cush if we draft him rather than OLB.

Both good points and I see the versatility for him to fit anywhere in our starting lb core. If he has to play 40 minutes a game like in Buffalo because their offense can't stay on the field, I can see how he'd wear down on the outside just like against Mewhort. I'm pretty sure the pick-6 came against a heads up play to beat the Mewhort cut-block. He fared much better against the RT though in that game.

Realistically I project him more as a SOLB in RAC's defense.


"I could actually address the points that are inconvenient to my argument but those involve actually watching tape and putting my own points to the test."

I'm at work right now, don't have a ton of time to respond to every point about a taller heavier player arm length to strength translation. I'm 6'4" 275, it doesn't matter. You want to get stronger? Lift more or increase reps.

Ryan Shazier beat Mack in the vertical, bench press, 40 time (comparing pro days) AND the 20-yard shuffle, so by your logic he's a lock for first overall, right?

Yes, that's all great, but I didn't say a lick about Shazier. We were comparing two players to determine "talent". I used two different metrics; stats, and measured athleticism. Mack had the edge in both except for the '40. If we were comparing all players to find a combine king for a #1 overall pick I'd use your logic.
I appreciate the debate and am just talking footall. No ill will intended.
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Old 05-03-2014   #202
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
You're dead wrong here. Mack made Mewhort look like an UDFA in the game against Ohio State. He recorded 2.5 sacks, 9 tackles, and returned an INT for a TD. He would have had 3.5 sacks if Mewhort hadn't traded a sack for a holding penalty.

Against Baylor, he only had 4 tackles. But that's mainly because Baylor's quick passing attack neutralizes most pass rushers. They only gave up 1 more sack this year than A&M's vaunted O-Line. You can also bet, as he was the only weapon in the Buffalo front seven, that he saw most of Baylor's attention in pass pro. Especially considering that game was 1 week after he shredded the Ohio State O-Line. I'm sure he had their attention that week as much as Clowney has had any opponent's attention.

Also, Baylor jumped out to a huge lead early in the game and Petty only threw 16 passes. Hard to blame Mack for not filling up the stat sheet.
I thought both his sacks came off the RT in that game... The pick-6 came lined up over LT. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.
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Old 05-03-2014   #203
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post
I thought both his sacks came off the RT in that game... The pick-6 came lined up over LT. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.
His sacks did come against Decker. However, he had another sack dead to rights against Mewhort but Mewhort held him and got called. He also had another sack lined up against Mewhort and Mewhort got away with the hold that time. He also beat Mewhort clean for another one but couldn't wrap Miller up for the sack. Later he had Norwell beat but got held and got the flag. Then he beat Marcus Hall for an almost safety but Miller was able to flush out the other side. The guy was 2 flags and about a hair away from having 5 sacks in the game, 2 of which were against Mewhort.

And yes, his pick-six came when lined up over Mewhort, who totally whiffed his cut block. He also out-ran Dontre Wilson on the return, who has been lazer timed at sub-4.4 in the forty. OSU is lucky he started to gas toward the end of the game.
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Old 05-03-2014   #204
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
You're dead wrong here. Mack made Mewhort look like an UDFA in the game against Ohio State. He recorded 2.5 sacks, 9 tackles, and returned an INT for a TD. He would have had 3.5 sacks if Mewhort hadn't traded a sack for a holding penalty.
Watch the game tape and then re-read your own post here. Mack's sacks came against the freshman right tackle; the interception was a great play by Mack but Mewhort screwed up a cut block and took himself out of the play. Otherwise, whenever Mewhort got his hands on Mack, Mack stayed put.

This is why you have to watch tape and not just read statlines all day.

Quote:
Against Baylor, he only had 4 tackles. But that's mainly because Baylor's quick passing attack neutralizes most pass rushers. They only gave up 1 more sack this year than A&M's vaunted O-Line. You can also bet, as he was the only weapon in the Buffalo front seven, that he saw most of Baylor's attention in pass pro. Especially considering that game was 1 week after he shredded the Ohio State O-Line. I'm sure he had their attention that week as much as Clowney has had any opponent's attention.
1) Watch the game tape and then re-read your own post. Again, Mack was about as effective against either of Baylor's tackles as he was against Mewhort.

2) You can be sure of a lot of things, but you simply don't have the the benefit of the facts here:

Quote:
Clowney defenders will be the first to say that teams threw extra double teams his way when asked about his decrease in production. In this case, the numbers bear that out. He was double teamed on 8.9% of his pass rush attempts, but was chipped by a RB or TE on a whopping 16.7% of his plays. In total, he faced extra offensive blocking on 25% of plays – more than double some others in this group.
Quote:
Khalil Mack is naturally going to have a low strength of sack playing at Buffalo and indeed comes in lowest of the group with a SOS of 23.09. However, more important is that 37.5% of his sacks were unblocked – the highest in the group. Suddenly that could cast some doubts on his quick sack time – was he beating blockers soundly or just on the receiving end of some good luck?
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...dge-rushers-10

The link also points out that Mack was only given extra attention on 13.89% of his pass-rushing snaps, only a little more than half of the attention Clowney got. To say Mack received just as much attention is to be dead wrong.

Quote:
While Khalil Mack split his time relatively evenly amongst the left and right sides, he was significantly less effective when rushing against teams’ left tackle. When playing right defensive end he only managed to pressure the QB once every seventeen snaps – a much poorer showing than his time against right tackles.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...dge-rushers-20

Quote:
Also, Baylor jumped out to a huge lead early in the game and Petty only threw 16 passes. Hard to blame Mack for not filling up the stat sheet.
That's fair when it comes to accruing stats, but Mack still didn't look all-that-impressive. And even then, how is that any different from pointing out that UNC and Tennessee used an excessive amount of quick-passing to negate Clowney, as well as rarely running any plays towards his side of the field?

People are awfully quick to defend Mack for a poor game against Baylor but are already prejudiced against Clowney. Beats me, but here we are.
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Old 05-03-2014   #205
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post
I appreciate the debate and am just talking footall. No ill will intended.
Fair enough on being at work; that's totally fine. Your comment came off as not wanting to put in the effort, but my mistake for misinterpreting it.

That said:

-You are really high on Devin Taylor for some reason. Dude had less sacks in 2012 than Quarles did, and has had even less in the NFL as a 4th-round pick. If you think he was the reason for Clowney's success, all I can say is that you're being a little ridiculous.

-I'm not talking about late in the game when Mack and the rest of Buffalo were worn out against Baylor, I'm talking about in the first quarter on two big runs where he has no ability to get in the backfield when facing their Tackles.

-If you're that big and heavy, all the more power to you. But if you're going to use combine tests as a purely dispositive point against Clowney, why can't I use that against Mack with Shazier? It makes no sense. Also, the longer arms thing w/r/t bench reps is true, I don't see why that makes Mack's all of two more reps impressive considering it's less stress on his arms.
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Old 05-03-2014   #206
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Watch the game tape and then re-read your own post here. Mack's sacks came against the freshman right tackle; the interception was a great play by Mack but Mewhort screwed up a cut block and took himself out of the play. Otherwise, whenever Mewhort got his hands on Mack, Mack stayed put.

This is why you have to watch tape and not just read statlines all day.
I watched the tape. Read my post above. He beat Mewhort on 3 separate occasions for pressures. On one he got held and got a flag, on the next he got held and no call, on the last he beat him clean and then missed the tackle on the QB. He also beat each OG for a pressure in the game and dominated the other OT. He beat 4 different O-Linemen in that game for pressures, including Mewhort. That hold that Mewhort was flagged for is almost the same thing as a sack.

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
1) Watch the game tape and then re-read your own post. Again, Mack was about as effective against either of Baylor's tackles as he was against Mewhort.
Mack was less effective against Baylor and, IMO, it had a lot to do with Baylor's scheme. Look at how quickly Petty is getting the ball out on every pass. The 90-yard TD pass was an 8-yard slant throw where Mack was a step away from a sack. Buffalo manned up across the board and their DB's got slaughtered.

Mack didn't apply the same amount of pressure as he did against OSU, but Baylor was also exploiting matchups outside and getting the ball out much quicker. They also spent half the day running away from him and on the few plays where they ran at him, he set the edge and the runner cut back into open field. Mack didn't play great, but I wouldn't say he played bad. The rest of that defense totally no-showed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
2) You can be sure of a lot of things, but you simply don't have the the benefit of the facts here:



http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...dge-rushers-10



The link also points out that Mack was only given extra attention on 13.89% of his pass-rushing snaps, only a little more than half of the attention Clowney got. To say Mack received just as much attention is to be dead wrong.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...dge-rushers-20
I never argued that he received as much attention as Clowney. I said that Baylor likely game planned for him that week just like teams were game planning for Clowney every week. Their plan was to make other players beat them. It worked.

And yes, those metrics do not support Mack's case. However, let's also realize that half the time Mack is rushing the passer he is coming from off the line of scrimmage. Clowney exclusively rushes from the DE spot with his hand down. It's a lot easier to double a guy on the LOS than it is to double a guy who's 4-5 yards off of it. Also, Mack dropped into coverage quite a bit. Is a team going to try to send a double team his way every play when he's not even rushing half the time? We know Clowney is coming, so we send the double. But Mack? If we try to double a guy who's not there then we're playing at a disadvantage against the rest of the front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
That's fair when it comes to accruing stats, but Mack still didn't look all-that-impressive. And even then, how is that any different from pointing out that UNC and Tennessee used an excessive amount of quick-passing to negate Clowney, as well as rarely running any plays towards his side of the field?

People are awfully quick to defend Mack for a poor game against Baylor but are already prejudiced against Clowney. Beats me, but here we are.
It's not any different and I've never argued that. Do you have me confused with someone else? Teams went out of their way to disrupt Clowney. The only argument that I've made is that, if he's this generational talent that everyone says he is, then why was it so successful?

And yes, I agree that Mack wasn't all that impressive against Baylor. But it was one game. You're annoyed that people criticize Clowney for a poor game and yet here you are criticizing Mack for one poor game. A bit ironic no?
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Old 05-03-2014   #207
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Mack is also very polished when he's in coverage.
This is corect.
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Old 05-04-2014   #208
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet
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If #Texans pass on Jadeveon Clowney, it sets up incredible drama at No. 2. Do #Rams take the star pass-rusher? Or auction their pick off?

I believe I read a version of this thought process in @theMMQB 2 weeks ago (http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/21/2014-n...g-quarterback/ …). Khalil Mack a name to watch this week.

After discussing the topic with people familiar with Rick Smith, it doesn’t appear #Texans are 100% sold on Clowney. Thus, willing to trade

In talking to people who know #Texans GM Rick Smith well, I no longer believe it’s a certainty that Jadeveon Clowney would be their 1st pick
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Old 05-05-2014   #209
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

If we are one or two players away from the kind of team that can take us deep into the POs (like what we thought we had the last couple years), then go with that player that most compliments your existing defense or offense and puts you over the top. But if we are drafting for sheer talent which is what you do anyway with the 1.1 and are in atleast a semi-rebuild of the roster, lets take the most talented player and figure out how to use him and best apply his talent(s).
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Old 05-05-2014   #210
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
If we are one or two players away from the kind of team that can take us deep into the POs (like what we thought we had the last couple years), then go with that player that most compliments your existing defense or offense and puts you over the top. But if we are drafting for sheer talent which is what you do anyway with the 1.1 and are in at least a semi-rebuild of the roster, lets take the most talented player and figure out how to use him and best apply his talent(s).
Since we have a 95% new coaching staff, I'd say that doesn't apply (I know, that's your point).

I'd rephrase your second option this way:
Take the player that will have the greatest, immediate impact toward team success.
A lot of you say that guy has to be a QB. I disagree because if you're going to spend the better part of a year (or two) getting him indoctrinated into the NFL. That doesn't present "immediate impact" to me.
Better to go with a guy that can step in right away and have an immediate positive impact. Now we can talk for days (and we have) about who will make the greatest immediate impact.
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Old 05-05-2014   #211
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Since we have a 95% new coaching staff, I'd say that doesn't apply (I know, that's your point).

I'd rephrase your second option this way:
Take the player that will have the greatest, immediate impact toward team success.
A lot of you say that guy has to be a QB. I disagree because if you're going to spend the better part of a year (or two) getting him indoctrinated into the NFL. That doesn't present "immediate impact" to me.
Better to go with a guy that can step in right away and have an immediate positive impact. Now we can talk for days (and we have) about who will make the greatest immediate impact.
Seems like a no brainer IMO. Mack already plays a 3-4 OLB. No need to get him to learn much just tweak. Where as Clowney is a complete build upt o learn the position.
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Old 05-05-2014   #212
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by DX-TEX View Post
Seems like a no brainer IMO. Mack already plays a 3-4 OLB. No need to get him to learn much just tweak. Where as Clowney is a complete build upt o learn the position.
been thinking about this & came to another possibility - Texans are letting another team know (Buffalo) if they really want to draft Mack they'll have to deal with Rick Smith aka Texans in blockbuster draft day trade. Texans would then use the 9th overall pick on a QB, best available left on their board.

draft trade value table gives us a glimpse @ what Texans should or could receive in return-

1st overall - 3000

9th - 1350
41st - 500
73rd - 225
= 2075 +
next years #1 or next years #2 & #3
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Old 05-05-2014   #213
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

Give me

1. Clowney
2. Savage
2. James after trading up

That would be a very successful first 2 days of the draft. IMHO

I also think sitting at 3-1 and taking a CB might be the way to go. What would you guys think if Savage went 33rd and Verrett was there at 35 would you be willing to give up 3-1 and 4-1 to take Verrett?

That would give you
1. Best pass rusher in draft
2. QB of the future
3. Best CB in the draft.

You could do a lot worse.
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Old 05-05-2014   #214
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Give me

1. Clowney
2. Savage
2. James after trading up

That would be a very successful first 2 days of the draft. IMHO

I also think sitting at 3-1 and taking a CB might be the way to go. What would you guys think if Savage went 33rd and Verrett was there at 35 would you be willing to give up 3-1 and 4-1 to take Verrett?

That would give you
1. Best pass rusher in draft
2. QB of the future
3. Best CB in the draft.

You could do a lot worse.
I'll be pissed if we take Savage at 33. I've been very open about not being a believer in Savage. Does the guy have physical tools? Yes. But he also has flaws and from what I have seen people are highlighting his physical skills/measureables while making excuses for his flaws.

You should always be wary of a guy who rises like this after all the games have been played.
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Old 05-05-2014   #215
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
draft trade value table gives us a glimpse @ what Texans should or could receive in return-

1st overall - 3000

9th - 1350
41st - 500
73rd - 225
= 2075 +
next years #1 or next years #2 & #3
I'd have a hard time justifying that King's ransom for Mack. With the depth of this draft, that's potentially 4 or 5 starters.
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Old 05-05-2014   #216
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Give me

1. Clowney
2. Savage
2. James after trading up

That would be a very successful first 2 days of the draft. IMHO

I also think sitting at 3-1 and taking a CB might be the way to go. What would you guys think if Savage went 33rd and Verrett was there at 35 would you be willing to give up 3-1 and 4-1 to take Verrett?

That would give you
1. Best pass rusher in draft
2. QB of the future
3. Best CB in the draft.

You could do a lot worse.

Who is James?
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Old 05-05-2014   #217
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by idymoe View Post
Who is James?
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/...mes?id=2543755
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Old 05-05-2014   #218
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Give me

1. Clowney
2. Savage
2. James after trading up

That would be a very successful first 2 days of the draft. IMHO

I also think sitting at 3-1 and taking a CB might be the way to go. What would you guys think if Savage went 33rd and Verrett was there at 35 would you be willing to give up 3-1 and 4-1 to take Verrett?

That would give you
1. Best pass rusher in draft
2. QB of the future
3. Best CB in the draft.

You could do a lot worse.
Wouldn't reach for Savage in the second. Only QB I take in the second is if Carr drops. Otherwise BPA ...
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Old 05-05-2014   #219
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by DX-TEX View Post
Seems like a no brainer IMO. Mack already plays a 3-4 OLB. No need to get him to learn much just tweak. Where as Clowney is a complete build upt o learn the position.
Very few are talking about Mack with the same kind of superlatives and descriptions as a prospect that they are about Clowney who's the consensus if not near unanimous choice as the top talent in this Draft, and as an edge-rusher he's plays at a highly valued, premium position. Now if your argument is that these people are just off of the mark in their ratings of Clowey, OK fine that's your prerogative.
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Old 05-05-2014   #220
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Default Re: Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Doh. That was the only James I could think of. I went through Draftek's mock three times looking for a cb named James.

I didn't read the entire post very well.
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