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Are we rebuilding?

LikeMike

Veteran
I know, after being the worst team in the NFL I guess most teams would be rebuilding. But I really believe last years nightmare was mostly due to a combination of QB play imploding, bad kicking and clueless coaching. Our team all in all was definetly good enough to make the playoffs if Schaub would`ve been able to keep his playing level from the previous year.

Now I know that going crazy in FA isn`t the way to go, and building through the draft makes a lot of sense. But with us not adding one "good" player while losing Daniels and Smith kinda looks like we are more in it for the future than the present. The salary cap went up significantly and with us probably getting rid of Schaub, we should`ve been able to get a great pass rusher or OT somewhere. But it seems like we are going for salary cap flexibility in the future more than we are going to make this team a contender soon.

Yeah, rookie QBs usually don`t give immediate success. But I´d hate guys like Andre having to finish their career like that. And it felt like we were close before last season, it`s frustrating to think we are ready for 2-3 more crappy years.

Or am I reading the situation wrong?
 
Of course we're rebuilding. It was inevitable. Nobody is saying that we're rebuilding but we're clearly rebuilding.
 
I know, after being the worst team in the NFL I guess most teams would be rebuilding. But I really believe last years nightmare was mostly due to a combination of QB play imploding, bad kicking and clueless coaching. Our team all in all was definetly good enough to make the playoffs if Schaub would`ve been able to keep his playing level from the previous year.

Now I know that going crazy in FA isn`t the way to go, and building through the draft makes a lot of sense. But with us not adding one "good" player while losing Daniels and Smith kinda looks like we are more in it for the future than the present. The salary cap went up significantly and with us probably getting rid of Schaub, we should`ve been able to get a great pass rusher or OT somewhere. But it seems like we are going for salary cap flexibility in the future more than we are going to make this team a contender soon.

Yeah, rookie QBs usually don`t give immediate success. But I´d hate guys like Andre having to finish their career like that. And it felt like we were close before last season, it`s frustrating to think we are ready for 2-3 more crappy years.

Or am I reading the situation wrong?


If the Jaguars were 2-14 last year, fired their entire coaching staff and had huge questions at defensive line, linebacker, QB, running back and offensive line, what would you say about them? Would they be rebuilding?

Yes indeed we are in full rebuild mode. There's no two ways about it.
 
Meh!!

I don't believe this 2-14 team is actually a 2-14 team.


What I mean by that is that there is actually a lot of talent on this team.


Save the QB meltdown and the fact that the team quit on Kubiak there is talent here.

The question is:
Are we rebuilding?





NO!! Re-tooling is more accurate. (And yes, there is a difference!)



Like Bill O'Brien is gonna let AJ get away like Steve Smith Leaving Carolina to the Ravens.
 
Other than us, who else is out there rebuilding?

What have they done since FA started?

How does that differ from what we've done?
 
This shouldn't be a full scale rebuild. We have good players at key positions and we have some great players in watt, Dre, Cushing, Duane brown. Some good young players. Some good starters.

The main thing we need is a qb.

I think the rest of the roster won't be extremely hard to fill in around what we have already.

If we hit on the qb then I think that speeds up the recovery even more.

I've said this in other threads, but I don't expect this to be a bad team next year. There isn't a team I'd consider to be dominant in our division. Titans and jags are meh...colts are beatable. Our division isn't that tough tbh.

Get some good quality bargain free agents. Draft well.

I expect to see a good team next year. Maybe catch some breaks and exceed expectations.

I don't expect to see a team struggling to keep the lights on.
 
We are rebuilding and will continue to do so until we find competent qb play. I'll be thrilled with .500 next year.
 
For those who think this isn't a full scale rebuild, let's be honest here. Let's look at the talent (or lack thereof) on this roster. Let's take a look at the guys on our team who would likely be contributors for most teams in the league.

QB - N/A
RB - Foster (coming off injury, again)
FB - N/A
WR 1 - Johnson
WR 2 - Hopkins (solid rookie year)
WR 3 - N/A
TE - N/A
LT - Brown
LG - N/A
C - Myers
RG - Brooks (maybe a stretch but I think he's on his way)
RT - N/A

WDE - N/A
NT - N/A
SDE - Watt
WOLB - N/A
WILB - Cushing
SILB - N/A
SOLB - N/A
CB 1 - Joseph
CB 2 - Jackson
FS - Manning
SS - N/A

K - N/A
P - Lechler
RET - N/A

If that's not a sobering reality check then I don't know what to tell you guys. This team has been held together by it's top talent for a while now. And it's gotten to the point where those guys can't do it by themselves anymore and they need some help.
 
If we have good qb play next season we will compete for division champ. If we don't have good qb play we will struggle.

I don't care about the supposed holes we have right now. I don't agree with everyone's position listings and between young guys that are already here, FAs we'll sign and the draft I think we'll fill some holes with quality players. I also believe the coaching will be better.

So again, I expect this team to be competitive next year...if the find good qb play.
 
This is kinda what I was saying in another thread about winnable games.

I want to see what moves we make and I'm dying to know what our team is going to end up being. Because right now, I'm just seeing swiss cheese. We've got a few really great pieces, a few makeshift pieces, a few pieces that haven't been healthy and I don't know if we should count on, and... holes. Mostly holes.

I wasn't expecting us to make any huge splashes in FA. But I was expecting... something. Granted, a lot of the contracts that have been handed out so far are puzzling and more money that I think we should spend for some of these guys, but I'd like to at least be in the conversation for more of them.
 
Meh!!

I don't believe this 2-14 team is actually a 2-14 team.


What I mean by that is that there is actually a lot of talent on this team.


Save the QB meltdown and the fact that the team quit on Kubiak there is talent here.

Sure , there is a lot of talent on this roster , like many others they have some really good players. The difference is that this roster has more holes than a Peking whore house while the contenders / non-rebuild mode teams have many fewer questionmarks.

The meltdown really highlights how pathetic last years draft was , its hard to believe that a 2-14 team couldn't get its draftee's on the field over the scrubs that went 2-14 (injuries were part of it but talent , work ethic and character were bigger issues).
 
For those who think this isn't a full scale rebuild, let's be honest here. Let's look at the talent (or lack thereof) on this roster. Let's take a look at the guys on our team who would likely be contributors for most teams in the league.

QB - N/A
RB - Foster (coming off injury, again)Pro Bowl
FB - N/A
WR 1 - JohnsonPro Bowl, All Pro
WR 2 - Hopkins (solid rookie year)
WR 3 - N/A
TE - N/A
LT - BrownPro Bowl
LG - N/A
C - MyersPro Bowl
RG - Brooks (maybe a stretch but I think he's on his way)3rd Year
RT - N/A

WDE - N/A
NT - N/A
SDE - WattDPOY, Pro Bowl, All-Pro
WOLB - N/A
WILB - CushingDROY(x2), Pro Bowl
SILB - N/A
SOLB - N/A
CB 1 - JosephPro Bowl
CB 2 - Jackson1st Round
FS - Manning
SS - N/A

K - N/A
P - Lechler
RET - N/A

If that's not a sobering reality check then I don't know what to tell you guys. This team has been held together by it's top talent for a while now. And it's gotten to the point where those guys can't do it by themselves anymore and they need some help.

Can't have pro bowlers & 1st rounders at every position. Especially considering we're going to be playing Buffalo, Oakland, Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Dallas, Washington, Cincinnati, & Philly

& we play in the AFC & we play in the AFC South...

Granted, we won't fix all our problems in one offseason, we won't be very good, but we don't have to be, we just have to be better than the teams that have not had as much success as we have the past 5 years. (Kinda like I don't have to run faster than the bear, just faster than you).

Andrew Luck, Reggie Wayne, & Ty Hilton won 11 games against a much more difficult schedule after the Colts were 2-14 the year before..

If we can fix half the holes this offseason, we'll be sitting pretty going into the 2015 off-season
 
If we can fix half the holes this offseason, we'll be sitting pretty going into the 2015 off-season after the Colts were 2-14 the year before.


I'd agree with that ..... Pending QB is one of the positions we "fix" and that fix is a legit NFL talent. Doesn't have to be Luck good , just Rivers / Flacco good (long term).
 
I'd agree with that ..... Pending QB is one of the positions we "fix" and that fix is a legit NFL talent. Doesn't have to be Luck good , just Rivers / Flacco good (long term).

Agreed. Some QBs make their WRs look better than they actually are. We've got two pretty good ones, one can make a QB look better than he is. His blind-side, whoever he is, will be protected & as long as Vince Wilfork is recovering from his achilles, & Chris Jenkins is out of the league, he'll be able to step up into the pocket.
 
So what's the difference between rebuilding & reloading?

Winning and consistent success. Two things we don't know very well.

Have to build something before you rebuild. Is 2 playoff wins in our history something to rebuild or are we still building?
 
I'm not sure if rebuilding would be the smartest thing to do considering that it would be wasting another year of Andre Johnson and the final year (?) of JJ Watt's pre-extension contract.
 
So what's the difference between rebuilding & reloading?

For me (and other people may not share this definition), RELOADING is where you change key personnel at several positions but continue winning. In most cases, there's no major philosophy change and no coaching change because those normally result in losing.

REBUILDING is when you have a philosophy change and have to have a substantial turnover in personnel to fit the new philosophy. This normally happens when you switch coaches but it can also happen if you change a coordinator and then bring in personnel to fit his new approach.

Lots of times, rebuilds don't actually work and turn into a series of regime changes and rebuilds until a successful combination of GM/Coaching Staff/Personnel is found. Occasionally, a coach will be able to put together a winning season while they're rebuilding (like Reid in KC or Sparano his first year in Miami) but that one winning season doesn't mean the rebuild worked.
 
I really don't know I think we are I think Bill knows we are I wanna think rick knows we are but mcnair does not want to admit it maybe he wants to spin it to the public just to keep ticket sells stable but even he knows

I guess right now yes


I mean we have not done anything in the Free agent market and really not re signing our F/a

maybe ill know when I know who we cut
 
1. Other than us, who else is out there rebuilding?

2. What have they done since FA started?

3. How does that differ from what we've done?
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.

  1. QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
  2. DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
  3. CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
  4. C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
  5. DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
  6. LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
  7. OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
  8. TE - Brandon Myers from NYG
The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.

Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.
 
I'd say we're remodeling more than rebuilding. We have a foundation and a descent structure, but we need to move a few walls, rewire, repair some damage and decide whether to repaint or go with paneling. Then we have to do something about the floors.
 
I'd say we're remodeling more than rebuilding. We have a foundation and a descent structure, but we need to move a few walls, rewire, repair some damage and decide whether to repaint or go with paneling. Then we have to do something about the floors.

I think if we´d be remodeling, we would sign FAs and try to keep the ones, that are still helping us. Right now it looks like cost cutting mode, sucking a couple of years and building through the draft.

Before this offseason I believed we would somehow try to fix to QB position (either by draft or by getting a guy like Mallet) and then go attack again. But with how the FA is going, I think the plan is to attack again in 3 years. It may be the smart thing to do, but it sure is a frustrating thing to do as well.
 
I think if we´d be remodeling, we would sign FAs and try to keep the ones, that are still helping us. Right now it looks like cost cutting mode, sucking a couple of years and building through the draft.

Before this offseason I believed we would somehow try to fix to QB position (either by draft or by getting a guy like Mallet) and then go attack again. But with how the FA is going, I think the plan is to attack again in 3 years. It may be the smart thing to do, but it sure is a frustrating thing to do as well.

We are essentially getting a draft and a half anyway since most of last seasons draft was on IR or used sparingly. I don't think this season is lost before it starts as some do.
 
If you wish to see who's done what so far in free agency, check ESPN's F/A tracker.

LINK

you can sort by team, position, status (signed/unsigned), type (UFA, RFA, etc.), or year and see for yourself who has done what so far.

Edit: I'll repost this link in the F/A tracker thread - although I think Playoffs might have already provided this link earlier in the thread.
he's provided nearly every damn thing else :D
 
According to Bob McNair, while in the middle of his temper tantrum in the midst of firing Gary Kubiak he stated a couple of times that the Texans were a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. He also said categorically that the Texans were NOT rebuilding. That should tell you all you need to know. (Bob is in denial)
 
According to Bob McNair, while in the middle of his temper tantrum in the midst of firing Gary Kubiak he stated a couple of times that the Texans were a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. He also said categorically that the Texans were NOT rebuilding. That should tell you all you need to know. (Bob is in denial)

Well if we were not rebuilding, I´d expect us to sign one different maker (perhaps someone like Byrd) and maybe two value signing, perhaps even more than that.

Right now we have question marks at QB, HB, LG, RT, TE, DT, DE, OLB, ILB, S - and maybe even CB. I´d expect us to address at least one O-line position and either the d-line and/or a linebacker before the draft. But right now, we are a worse team than we were last season, and that is a scary thought...
 
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.

  1. QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
  2. DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
  3. CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
  4. C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
  5. DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
  6. LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
  7. OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
  8. TE - Brandon Myers from NYG
The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.

Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.
Guys want to play for Lovie Smith... Bill O'Brien is a big unknown.
 
I count atleast 5 vet starters who've they've not kept when they probably could have retained most if not all of them, so yea, we are rebuilding and looking towards the longer term. The most interesting feature of their personnel decisions so far IMO is the apparent retention of the entire starting defensive secondary.
 
We're definitely in a rebuild, only someone in denial would think otherwise. I know for an owner might not like to say it, but sometimes fans welcome it.

What bothers me the most this offseason isn't that we're not going on a FA bonanza, it's the near complete lack of activity by this FO. A 2-14 team and the biggest "acquisition" is retaining a second string TE after cutting a former pro bowler TE. Not necessarily arguing for keeping OD but we didn't get significant cap savings or get better.

I'm not sure what the FO is looking at or waiting on.
 
We're definitely in a rebuild, only someone in denial would think otherwise. I know for an owner might not like to say it, but sometimes fans welcome it.

What bothers me the most this offseason isn't that we're not going on a FA bonanza, it's the near complete lack of activity by this FO. A 2-14 team and the biggest "acquisition" is retaining a second string TE after cutting a former pro bowler TE. Not necessarily arguing for keeping OD but we didn't get significant cap savings or get better.

I'm not sure what the FO is looking at or waiting on.

cap space/draft - expect them to also hit undrafted market hard post draft while trying to retain young cornerstone players who fit scheme/locker room under O'Brian.
 
cap space/draft - expect them to also hit undrafted market hard post draft while trying to retain young cornerstone players who fit scheme/locker room under O'Brian.

They'll be some nice cap space after this team cuts Schaub, I doubt even with rumors flying about Oakland looking hard at Sanchez or Schaub with his contract it'll be feasible.

I sure as hell hope O'Brien and the new staff has a better clue what they're doing via the draft more than Kubiak. They can't defend completely on the draft to reasonably plug some of the holes in this roster.

Value shopping post draft? I got a bad feeling about this coming season if this is the case. The silver lining might be letting go of Rock Smith too.
 
LOL I wouldn't exactly look at TB as a model to follow. Recently, they've consistently been big spenders in FA. And they may have actually lost more games than they were before.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. You build through the draft and you complement those pieces through FA. Every single successful franchise does this. Every single one.

Why hamstring yourself with FA signings who you will have to overpay for? Especially when the cap situation you inherited is far from ideal. Wait it out and find the bargains. Then fill your holes in the draft.

We'll be more active in FA next year after the coaches have had a year to see where the current group of players fit the system. But I would still be surprised to see this regime become big spenders.
 
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.

  1. QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
  2. DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
  3. CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
  4. C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
  5. DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
  6. LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
  7. OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
  8. TE - Brandon Myers from NYG

Thanks Obi, that illustrates my point exactly.

We're not rebuilding. Tampa Bay is.
 
They'll be some nice cap space after this team cuts Schaub, I doubt even with rumors flying about Oakland looking hard at Sanchez or Schaub with his contract it'll be feasible.

I sure as hell hope O'Brien and the new staff has a better clue what they're doing via the draft more than Kubiak. They can't defend completely on the draft to reasonably plug some of the holes in this roster.

Value shopping post draft? I got a bad feeling about this coming season if this is the case. The silver lining might be letting go of Rock Smith too.

I'd rather create a long term plan rather than go all in on turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team for one year. Let's take out all the garbage and eat all the dead money right now so we don't have to worry about it later.

I don't expect much this season. I expect an improved product but not a playoff team. Year two I have expectations.
 
Some of you pessimistic people make me laugh. So far, they let go of Mitchell, Sharpton, Daniels, Smith, McCain. They got rid of more negatives than positives, as Sharpton, McCain, and Mitchell were all useless. Smith can be replaced, as can Daniels, he is no longer the pro bowl TE we all once knew. It was time for younger talent, and they need to be able to draft instead of going out and make a signing they probably will regret (See. Ed Reed. )
 
I'd rather create a long term plan rather than go all in on turning a 2-14 team into a playoff team for one year. Let's take out all the garbage and eat all the dead money right now so we don't have to worry about it later.

What dead money do you speak of? The only players with significant dead money is Andre, Schaub, Jjo, DBrown, Cushing & Arian. All of them signed through 2016 with the exception of Jjo.

Maybe we're using the words differently, but you can't "eat" all the dead money, unless you cut the players. Otherwise, you're pushing their dead money into the next season.

Do you think we should cut Andre, Schaub, Jjo, DBrown, Cush, or Arian?

If not, if you think most of the people on that list is part of the future of the Houston Texans, we're retooling, not rebuilding.
 
Who is this we you speak of?

This is BoB McNair's team and there lies the problem.

McNair/Slick should be rebuilding and that may require another terrible yr to get out of cap hell. Not that that is a bad thing. Next yrs QB class is strong.
 
Some of you pessimistic people make me laugh. So far, they let go of Mitchell, Sharpton, Daniels, Smith, McCain. They got rid of more negatives than positives, as Sharpton, McCain, and Mitchell were all useless. Smith can be replaced, as can Daniels, he is no longer the pro bowl TE we all once knew. It was time for younger talent, and they need to be able to draft instead of going out and make a signing they probably will regret (See. Ed Reed. )

It´s not about the players we cut - I can live with every cut. And its not about us not signing Peppers or Ware. It´s about us cutting starters and not signing anybody.

We can`t fill all these holes in the draft. Not even close. We can count on 2-3 starters. 5 if we´re lucky. How many do we need? I´d say about 10. I am not saying we should`ve signed 7 guys. I am saying we should´ve tried to get some players that just got out of their rookie contract - players that still have 5 good years left in them. Not 7, but perhaps 2-3, just to make the draft easier and to minimize the holes we have.
 
It´s not about the players we cut - I can live with every cut. And its not about us not signing Peppers or Ware. It´s about us cutting starters and not signing anybody.

We can`t fill all these holes in the draft. Not even close. We can count on 2-3 starters. 5 if we´re lucky. How many do we need? I´d say about 10. I am not saying we should`ve signed 7 guys. I am saying we should´ve tried to get some players that just got out of their rookie contract - players that still have 5 good years left in them. Not 7, but perhaps 2-3, just to make the draft easier and to minimize the holes we have.

They were 2-14, they aren't going to spend much money on players who won't be here long term, and would barely make an impact. You draft, then fill the remaining holes in FA.
 
Yes we are. Contrary to Mr. Mcnair and his beliefs. I don't have faith in Rick Smith to have a killer draft.
 
We'll never do it because McNair is in denial thinking we're a contender, but I think the best thing for this team to do to become good quickly is to write-off the upcoming season.

Take all the cap hits now to put ourselves in better position for FAs in 2015, trade our 1st 2nd and 3rd round picks for a combination of more mid round picks in 2014 and future picks in 2015. Fill some holes and build depth with mid round picks this year, start Keenum and tank the season. That would leave a mega draft in 2015 (draft or trade for Winston), and cap space for free agents that year as well as room for jj's new contract.

Oh, and fire Rick Smith.

It's probably dumb, and practically unheard of in the nfl, and I'm probably playing fantasy GM, so flame away!
 
They were 2-14, they aren't going to spend much money on players who won't be here long term, and would barely make an impact. You draft, then fill the remaining holes in FA.

That`s what I meant with "take players after their rookie contracts are over so they have 5 more good years left in them."

Our roster was a lot better than 2-14. It was a QB that was imploding, one of the worst kicking performances maybe in the history of the league and a coach that didn`t have a clue how to turn it around. 2 years ago we advanced in the playoffs. We have great players. And we did build through the draft. Most of our best players were drafted by us.

Great teams build a foundation in the draft and complement it with great FA - like we did when we signed Manning and Joseph.
 
1. The 4-12 Tampa Bay Buccs
2. Signed 8 free agents including their guy (Lovie Smith's guy) at starting QB. We have no clue what O'Brien intends to do at QB or anywhere else for that matter.

  1. QB - Josh McCown from CHI (former B/U under Lovie wasn't he?)
  2. DE - Michael Johnson from CIN
  3. CB - Alterraun Verner from Tenn
  4. C - Evan Dietrich-Smith from GB
  5. DT - Clinton McDonald from SEA
  6. LB - Jonathan Casillas resigned
  7. OT - Anthony Collins from CIN
  8. TE - Brandon Myers from NYG
The biggest TB F/A loss was Darrelle Revis who, when you think about it, may not have been an idea fit for the Tampa-2 Lovie likes as the basis for his defense.

3. You know who we've lost. We've re-signed one, each, #2 TE.
The end.

Now I have no insight into how well these moves will work for Lovie down in Tampa. Hell they may all fall completely flat. But, by Gawd, at least he seems to be addressing team weaknesses.

Also, since Tampa only has 5 picks in this year's draft, maybe there was more urgency to do something in free agency.



I really believe the lack of activity in FA means they realize the coming season isn't one in which they compete and because of that , there is little reason to spend in an inflated FA market especially while they are already up against the cap with big money due next year to JJ Watt.

The goals this season are pretty clear : clean up the cap , develop a QB and get their rookie HC some OTJT.
 
I don't see more than 6 wins max out of this team and thats a huge if we find a competent QB. The front office needs to hit home runs on every draft choice and even that won't fixc all the holes on this team with as little cap space as we have.
 
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