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The Sideline View/Zierlein/Harris on 2014 Draft

Playoffs

Hall of Fame
TSV'S BIG BOARD -- Top 300+

Lance Zierlein/John Harris

1 Johnny Manziel QB 6'1" 200lbs. Texas A&M
2 Teddy Bridgewater QB 6'3" 206lbs. Louisville
3 Jadeveon Clowney DE 6'6" 256lbs. South Carolina
4 Jake Matthews OT 6'5" 305lbs. Texas A&M
5 Sammy Watkins WR 6'1" 200lbs. Clemson
6 Mike Evans WR 6'5" 218lbs. Texas A&M
7 Cyrus Kouandjio OT 6'6" 311lbs. Alabama
8 Anthony Barr OLB/DE 6'4" 235lbs. UCLA
9 CJ Mosley ILB/OLB 6'2" 232lbs. Alabama
10 Trent Murphy OLB/DE 6'6" 261lbs. Stanford
11 Taylor Lewan OT 6'8" 315lbs. Michigan
12 Kyle Van Noy OLB/DE 6'3" 235lbs. Brigham Young
13 Blake Bortles QB 6'3" 227lbs. Central Florida
14 Jordan Matthews WR 6'3" 205lbs. Vanderbilt
15 Ryan Shazier OLB/DE 6'2" 226lbs. Ohio State
16 Khalil Mack OLB/DE 6'3" 244lbs. Buffalo
17 Marqise Lee WR 6'0" 195lbs. Southern California
18 Eric Ebron TE 6'4" 245lbs. North Carolina
19 Kony Ealy DE 6'5" 275lbs. Missouri
20 Jace Amaro TE 6'5" 257lbs. Texas Tech
21 Greg Robinson OT 6'5" 320lbs. Auburn
22 Lamarcus Joyner S, CB 5'8" 195lbs. Florida State
23 Derek Carr QB 6'3" 210lbs. Fresno State
24 Justin Gilbert CB 6'0" 200lbs. Oklahoma State
25 Darqueze Dennard CB 5'11" 197lbs. Michigan State
26 Vic Beasley OLB/DE 6'2" 235lbs. Clemson
27 Ha Ha Clinton Dix S 6'1" 209lbs. Alabama
28 Jason Verrett CB 5'10" 178lbs. Texas Christian
29 Cyril Richardson G 6'5" 335lbs. Baylor
30 Louis Nix III DT 6'3" 326lbs. Notre Dame
31 Cameron Erving OT 6'6" 309lbs. Florida State
32 Kelvin Benjamin WR 6'5" 234lbs. Florida State
33 Dee Ford OLB/DE 6'2" 246lbs. Auburn
...
see full sortable rankings: http://www.thesidelineview.com/big-board
 
pretty decent board right there. only thing would be for me to swap TB and JF and move matthews and barr down a couple more
 
LZ mentioned on Twitter yesterday that he felt Manziel would have a better career than Teddy; I'll be interested to hear that analysis.
 
Both are really good QBs. Johnny may wow the crowd, but Teddy's work is so much cleaner looking. It would be a very, very bold move if the Texans were to pick Manziel over TB. I just don't see it with this organization. Teddy is squeaky clean. He just needs some time in the gym. I'll support and trust whom ever O'Brien rolls with. I just don't see any logic skipping Teddy unless some crazy trade which is HIGHLY fkn doubtful. A lot of people here need to realize that.
 
LZ mentioned on Twitter yesterday that he felt Manziel would have a better career than Teddy; I'll be interested to hear that analysis.

Click on his name and it brings up a Breakdown page with pros/cons and film study.

Also click on the big Notes and Commentary button at the top.

Pretty darned comprehensive tool, imo.
 
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Click on his name and it brings up a Breakdown page with pros/cons and film study.

Pretty darned comprehensive tool, imo.

I've read their analysis, I'm just surprised anyone would rate Manziel over Bridgewater as a prospect, and I like Manziel.
 
Reading Manziel and Brdgewater's pros and cons, not sure how they conclude Manziel is better suited to QB in the NFL.
 
I've read their analysis, I'm just surprised anyone would rate Manziel over Bridgewater as a prospect, and I like Manziel.

Now you will be the one accused of irrational JFF hate. (Welcome to the club. I love me some JFF, but think Bridgewater will be the better pro. So I'm a hater.)

The irrational Manziel hate is so thick on this board you could cut it with a rolling pin.
 
LZ mentioned on Twitter yesterday that he felt Manziel would have a better career than Teddy; I'll be interested to hear that analysis.

We'll all get to see what actually happens. Sometimes its not always the best prospect who develops into the better pro. Has a lot to do with coaching, scheme, how hard he works & what cannot be measured.... his heart:heart:
 
Now you will be the one accused of irrational JFF hate. (Welcome to the club. I love me some JFF, but think Bridgewater will be the better pro. So I'm a hater.)

I think Manziel has greater potential than Bridgewater (this is not a knock on Teddy at all; I just see his ceiling as Matt Ryan with a better arm, while Manziel could become Tarkenton), but Bridgewater is more deserving of the #1 pick. I'd love to grab Bridgewater at #1 or trade down for Manziel at #4.
 
I think Manziel has greater potential than Bridgewater (this is not a knock on Teddy at all; I just see his ceiling as Matt Ryan with a better arm, while Manziel could become Tarkenton), but Bridgewater is more deserving of the #1 pick. I'd love to grab Bridgewater at #1 or trade down for Manziel at #4.

You think Tarkenton would survive in todays nfl?
 
In the Bortles thread LZ says Texans take Bortles #1 overall and here he is listed as 13th best prospect? Is LZ fishing for hits again by blatantly playing both sides? Something doesn't add up.
 
In the Bortles thread LZ says Texans take Bortles #1 overall and here he is listed as 13th best prospect? Is LZ fishing for hits again by blatantly playing both sides? Something doesn't add up.

I know you don't like LZ but that's what he said this morning regarding some discussions he's had with a few scouts including somebody in the Bears org.
 
In the Bortles thread LZ says Texans take Bortles #1 overall and here he is listed as 13th best prospect? Is LZ fishing for hits again by blatantly playing both sides? Something doesn't add up.

There's a difference between saying who they will pick, and who you would pick.
 
In the Bortles thread LZ says Texans take Bortles #1 overall and here he is listed as 13th best prospect? Is LZ fishing for hits again by blatantly playing both sides? Something doesn't add up.

The Bortles thread was started in Nov. LZ's last post on this board was in Oct.
 
Now you will be the one accused of irrational JFF hate. (Welcome to the club. I love me some JFF, but think Bridgewater will be the better pro. So I'm a hater.)

Who called you a hater?

Bridgewater isn't some can't miss prospect. He is more pro ready than Manziel, but all these highlight gifs people kept posting of Bridgewater, Manziel has done those exact same plays. i think he has the most potential. I wouldn't take either QB first overall, only Clowney. Trading back a few spots and grabbing him would be best.
 
There's a guy that plays for the Seahawks that could answer that question for you.

Wilson is a pure pocket passer who happens to have tremendous scrambling ability. He also rarely gets hit.

Manziel can throw from the pocket, but he is much more comfortable on the move outside the pocket. He also takes way too many hits.
 
Wilson is a pure pocket passer who happens to have tremendous scrambling ability. He also rarely gets hit.

Manziel can throw from the pocket, but he is much more comfortable on the move outside the pocket. He also takes way too many hits.

He's also thicker, a lot more muscle.
 
Manziel means bidness.

BdaQhZmCAAA95zQ.jpg
 
Who called you a hater?

Bridgewater isn't some can't miss prospect. He is more pro ready than Manziel, but all these highlight gifs people kept posting of Bridgewater, Manziel has done those exact same plays. i think he has the most potential. I wouldn't take either QB first overall, only Clowney. Trading back a few spots and grabbing him would be best.

It's not the GIFs we should be concerned with. Any QB can look great in a highlight reel. We should be concerned about all the countless other plays, adjustments, reads etc. That is what a makes a QB.
 
Well at least he don't take hits like this!

I don't recall mentioning Bridgewater in that post, but yes he did get clocked there. However, that happens to him rarely because he stays in the pocket and gets the ball out quickly most of the time. I don't recall Manziel getting rocked like that before, but he invites a much higher quantity of hits with his style of play. Those add up. Just look at this season with all of his ailments.
 
Wow, lots of JFF hate in here, even though LZ is quite revered at other times. Must be wishy-washy fans. :kitten: People need to remember that LOTS of folks thought Ryan Leaf was a better prospect than Manning as well.

I think TB has a higher ceiling, I think JFF has a higher floor. I see things in both their games that are suspect at the pro level, but whether they can re-train either their brain or body to correct them (or just overcome them) is a prospect you face 98% of the time.

Talent-wise, the only can't miss I see is Clowney. His issues are almost entirely between the ears.

To those spouting stats on College QB arm-strength vs. current NFL players, you have zero comparison points until the combine. Let's look at those metrics before pronouncing anyone weaker or slower.
 
I would actually swap that: I think Teddy has the higher floor but Manziel has the higher ceiling. Teddy's great mechanics would make anyone happy to have him drafted first overall, but you've got to wonder about JFF's potential, especially as we see the Pistol develop in the pros.
 
Questions like "will you work hard?" reply " I will work hard".

I'm convinced.

Maybe they do those weird psycho-analyst questions,like:

If you were an animal what kind of car would you drive?

Describe yourself in three words using the last letter of the previous word as the first of the subsequent word?
 
Wow, lots of JFF hate in here, even though LZ is quite revered at other times. Must be wishy-washy fans.

I respect LZ as much as anyone, but he tends to fall in love with exciting local prospects over quality players. He couldn't have been higher on the the Rodgers brothers or Vince Young. He had a huge on air meltdown when VY scored that overtime touchdown against us his rookie season.

So I temper his recommendations when it's a local guy.
 
I respect LZ as much as anyone, but he tends to fall in love with exciting local prospects over quality players. He couldn't have been higher on the the Rodgers brothers or Vince Young. He had a huge on air meltdown when VY scored that overtime touchdown against us his rookie season.

So I temper his recommendations when it's a local guy.
Sounds reasonable. I just get a chuckle when JM or TB get roasted by a particular reviewer stating they wouldn't take one of the other until late 2nd / 3rd.
 
LZ gets my undivided attention when he's discussing OL prospects and that's about it. Lance does have some insider sources, so when he repeats a source opinion I listen. Anything else I take with a grain of salt.
 
Lance offered chance for every one of us to up our game. I listen, read & soak in as much as possible & I've read many, he is solid. Which really distracts me from my calling, lol.

I have to ask, why is Rick Smith still here?

Have to admit after every draft I'm the first to make the best of it!

But enough is enough.

Montgomery/Williams.... wtf

two critical positions on need that still need to be addressed.

you have to hit on those to be a winning franchise.

what i see is a partnership that failed, so why exclude the partner in crime, can you read me Cal, Robert McNair.

Please just do us all a favor along with your new HC & players cut the cord.

Thought I had something more to say.....
 
THE CURIOUS CASE OF CHRISTIAN JONES

Prior to heading to Mobile for the Senior Bowl, my Sideline View cohort Lance Zierlein and I were discussing our most intriguing Senior Bowl prospects. I quickly noted Florida State’s Christian Jones, in large part due to the fact that I wanted to see how the Jacksonville Jaguars coaching staff would use him down in Mobile. Would they play him at middle linebacker? Would they allow him to stand up and rush the edge? Would he play one of the outside linebacker spots?

It dawned on me at that particular moment how different and unique Jones is and the dimension that he provides for an NFL team. Many don’t see it my way, well, many in the draft media world. But, I can be stubborn about what I’ve seen and even more so as it pertains to what I think Jones can do for an NFL team at the next level. Here’s why...
 
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top
Lance Zierlein ‏@LanceZierlein
The idea of giving away multiple picks in an extremely deep draft is just poor draft management

@ryanlownes @SigmundBloom ATL has a big need at tackle and DE and they could easily fall into Mack or Matthews or trade back.

Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes
@LanceZierlein @SigmundBloom @jharrisfootball I agree, I don't think they're in position to sacrifice multiple or future picks. + 6 is fine

@ryanlownes @SigmundBloom I had this discussion with @jharrisfootball yesterday. I think trading up for ATL is a mistake.

Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes
@LanceZierlein @SigmundBloom ATL has shown that aggressiveness before, but they're already in a solid spot to fill a need w/big-time player.

@ryanlownes If they move back, it will be Matthews. If he’s not there, Watkins. They are in a great spot to me.

Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes
@LanceZierlein Potential Rams target if they move down a few spots or do you see him as being in play at #2 still?

Workout was fantastic yesterday. Snead only GM there RT "@ryanlownes: @LanceZierlein Have seen more mocks with Matthews falling to 9 or so"

I feel like Watkins and Manziel are the biggest wildcards inside the top 6 picks. Bortles will fall out of top 7 if he doesn’t go 1st

The more conversations I have w/ contacts around league, the more I feel like Clowney, Mack, Matthews and Robinson all gone inside 5

Looking more and more like Texans go with best player on their board (likely Clowney) and a QB later in the draft. Traits usually win out.
 
RANKING THE TOP QBS IN THE 2014 NFL DRAFT: HOW WE RANK
By Lance Zierlein
With every NFL draft a heightened importance is placed on the quarterback position because, as we all know, trying to win a Super Bowl without an upper-echelon quarterback is pretty hard to do.

Quarterbacks get dissected like no other draft prospects. By the final couple of weeks before the draft, it seems as though the only things we begin hearing about most quarterbacks are the negatives as opposed to what they do well.

However, when you consider the relatively low hit rate at the quarterback position in the first round of the NFL draft, you can understand the jaundiced eye that is cast in that position's direction.

"Blake Bortles isn't ready yet."
"Johnny Manziel can't make NFL throws from the pocket."
"Teddy Bridgewater is too slight and had a bad pro day."​
Maybe these comments will end up being validated and maybe they won't - time will tell. We do, however, know that projecting QBs from the college level to the pros has become harder with the college game being played completely differently than the pros.

NFL teams have turned to analytics programs like STATS Ice to help them with projecting, developing and attacking quarterbacks. “Our QB Launch Point and Passing Stance analysis help personnel executives and coaches determine a QB’s strengths, weaknesses, and development opportunities for incoming QBs”, said STATS Ice creator and STATS Sports Solutions GM John Pollard. “With an increased emphasis on the passing game, defensive schemes are tailored to both pressure the QB while defending the big play. Teams are using our data to not only find ways to attack NFL QBs, but also to identify which college QBs are likely to fit into their offensive schemes.”

Teams are using our data to not only find ways to attack NFL QBs, but also to identify which college QBs are likely to fit into their offensive schemes.
STATS Sports Solutions GM John Pollard
Today we are going to try and combine the requisite elements that today's successful, NFL quarterback has to possess along with player data to see if we can create a more focused assessment of Bortles, Manziel and Bridgewater.

ELEMENTS OF SUCCESS

There was a time when quarterbacks could be statues in the pocket and still be elite. There was also a time when many NFL teams used 7-step drops. We don't see either happen very often nowadays.

Strong arm? Those days are gone too. Sure, having a strong arm can help with certain throws, but what most teams want to see is functional arm strength which is another way of saying "can make all of the NFL throws". Here are some core elements of success for NFL quarterbacks.

1. TOUGHNESS AND POISE

Let's be clear on this one. There have been plenty of QBs who have been physically tough who didn't show a great deal of poise when needed. The two are not always inter-linked. Guys like Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Brady have all shown a combination of toughness AND poise and they all have Super Bowl rings.

2. ACCURACY

It is very rare, indeed, to hear any GMs or head coaches talk about arm strength over accuracy anymore. Passing games aren't ruled by verticality any longer, they are ruled by accuracy. Accuracy (as we define it in this space) is the ability to throw short and intermediate throws with consistent accuracy.

3. INSTINCTS OR "FEEL"

This appears to be a fairly nebulous term upon first glance, but NFL evaluators have a like-minded understanding of what constitutes "instincts" and "feel" for a quarterback. Whether it is a quarterback sliding away from blindside trouble in the pocket or anticipating throwing windows on an intermediate "Dig" route. Quarterbacks who display good instincts within a game are usually able to make plays and avoid costly turnovers at a greater rate than QBs who don't show that same feel for the position.

4. LEADERSHIP

Leadership can be seen on the field, but it is more than just a QB yelling at his guys on the sideline or imploring them in the huddle when they are behind. Any QB can do these things, but the real tell-tale sign is whether or not teammates respond to these QBs. Do they buy into the QB during the offseason work including in camp? Do they consider this QB a "be about it" player or a "talk about it" player. When players believe in their leader (the QB), they tend to play at a higher level more consistently because that QB sets the tone for the team.

QUARTERBACKING SKILLS TO CONSIDER

Three of the four "Elements of Success" could be considered subjective and difficult to measure with accuracy being the only element where everyone can come to a reasonable consensus based on the data. How you actually use the data in your assessment of accuracy is another topic but we will delve into that when we analyze Manziel, Bortles and Bridgewater later on.

Let's take a look at some of the skills that are necessary in today's NFL game:

1. ABILITY TO MAKE NFL THROWS

Arm strength certainly matters a great deal in this category, but it is worth noting that there is a sliding scale for arm strength relative to a QB's anticipatory skills and release. Around the league, there is an understanding about the cutoff for arm strength for a QB to be able to make NFL throws. The closer a QB is to the cutoff line, the earlier in the route a QB has to throw the ball. If the arm is below average and the QB doesn't get rid of the ball early enough, then he won't be able to make NFL throws without giving up too many interceptions. Joe Montana and currently, Peyton Manning, have below average NFL arms, but their understanding of their schemes and ability to get rid of the ball early in the route and still complete passes at a high percentage is what helped them in their careers. As one NFL personnel man puts it, "Any ball over 15 yards - he has to have anticipation and enough velocity."

2. ABILITY TO THROW WITH ACCURACY ON THE MOVE

This can be a measure a QB's ability to scramble and make plays and/or a QB's ability to roll-out and throw with accuracy in both directions. Some offenses will take advantage of the bootleg game in play-action or they will simply roll their QBs out of the pocket. In these offenses, it is critical to be able to hit targets with consistency. Obviously there are some offenses that don't ask their QBs to roll outside of the pocket much (Tom Brady), so this skill is more important in some offenses than in others; however, accuracy and an ability to make throws after scrambling out of the pocket has become more and more important in today's NFL.

3. MOBILITY

There was a time when "The Statue" could make it in the NFL as a QB, but it is getting harder and harder for those QBs to be successful in the NFL. Defensive coordinators understand not only how to generate pressure from all angles via blitz packages, they also understand the tendencies of QBs and will make defensive calls that are designed to confuse the QB and slow his progressions. Once this happens, havoc can ensue and QBs who are able to slide around in the pocket (pocket mobility) or get outside of the pocket and keep their eyes downfield have the ability to make plays and extend drives.
http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/draft/ranking-top-three-qbs-2014-nfl-draft-johnny-manziel
 
RANKING THE TOP THREE QBS IN THE 2014 NFL DRAFT: JOHNNY MANZIEL
By Lance Zierlein
TOUGHNESS AND POISE

There can be no denying that Manziel is at the top of the toughness list amongst QBs in this year’s draft. In his two years as a starter, Manziel never missed...

ACCURACY (INCLUDING ON THE MOVE)

I’ve heard questions about whether or not Manziel can beat a team from the pocket and to do that, he has to prove that he is accurate. Was he accurate from the pocket in college? Yes. Yes he was.

When Manziel threw from the pocket, he complete 73.6% of his passes for 3,429 yards, 9.95 ypa and 27 TDs. Can Manziel...

MAKES NFL THROWS

This is one of the areas that some evaluators believe Manziel could struggle with on the next level. It isn’t necessarily the arm strength that is the knock here, it is the feel and the anticipation that tends to get him knocked. I’ve seen some of the anticipation issues with my own eyes as Manziel has waited for a window to come open rather than throwing to a spot. Is this coachable? It can be...

[IMGwidthsize=600]http://www.thesidelineview.com/sites/default/files/manziel.png[/IMG]
...

Of Manziel’s 37 TD passes this year, only 10 came from behind the line of scrimmage to five yards down the field - the classic dump and dash that we see in college. According to the STATS Ice data, Manziel had 27 TDs passes beyond 6 yards including 12 that were for 16+ yards.

[IMGwidthsize=600]http://www.thesidelineview.com/sites/default/files/johnny-manziel-charts-stats-ice-tsv.jpg[/IMG]

MOBILITY

We know that Manziel is elite in terms of his mobility. Whether Manziel is...

FINAL ANALYSIS

The tape shows that Manziel has the ability to make throws against Cover-2 defenses and down the sideline on vertical routes. His touch on those deep throws is undeniable. However, the tape and the data also show that Manziel tends to get careless...

(All data mentioned represents the 2013 season)
read complete analysis: http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/draft/ranking-top-three-qbs-2014-nfl-draft-johnny-manziel
 
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