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Old 02-16-2014   #1101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
This is why I hate the "this guy's not worth being taken at 1-1" mindset.

You've got to look at it in terms of... which pick is going to do the most to improve our team. Is Clowney going to make our team that much better?
Good post overall, the only criticism I have is that you have to look at the whole draft, not just one pick. If we take Clooney, or Robinson, or Watkins & take Murray, McCarran, or M anziel if he falls... is that better or worse than taking Bridgewater & who else?

I wasn't one of them but there were some saying we should trade down & take Cutler, Mangold, or D'Brickshaw. Looking back I wouldn't have had a problem with that, or even taking Cutler 1st overall... if we still got Demo in the second. Biggest knock on Cutler was that his team wasn't very successful & there were reasons for that.


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Old 02-16-2014   #1102
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Good post overall, the only criticism I have is that you have to look at the whole draft, not just one pick. If we take Clooney, or Robinson, or Watkins & take Murray, McCarran, or M anziel if he falls... is that better or worse than taking Bridgewater & who else?
The one thing I've learned doing the Texan's Talk Mock Drafts of the past few years is that you never know how it's going to play out. There are always surprises.

Let's say we take Bridgewater at 1-1, then Van Noy at 2-1, and then maybe Daniel McCullers at 3-1.

Or, we could take one of the QBs at 1-1, and then package up some picks and move back into the 1st to get Louis Nix.

We go out and get Austin Howard in FA to take over the RT spot. Or at 2-1 we could go after someone like a Richardson or a Kouandijo for RT.

There are a lot of options. The tone of your post makes it sound like if we take one of the QBs at 1-1, the rest of our draft is going to be a bunch of scrubs but if we take someone like Clowney, then we'll have a better rest of the draft.

On the defensive side, everything rests on what RAC thinks he can do with our current Defensive players and how he thinks he can shape this into a crew he can work with. I think his ideal scheme relies on a big guy in the middle like a Wilfork or a Washington. So I'm not going to be surprised to see us make some moves to get one. I wouldn't be surprised if we trade back and then trade back and get either Jernigan or Nix.

On the offensive side, I'm not too worried. It's all about the QB and the RT for me. I think we have a stable of TEs and WRs that OB is going to be happy with. I think we have enough talent along the line for him to work with except for the RT. That's why I'm expecting a QB at 1-1 -- either Bortles or Bridgewater... but I don't expect it enough to bet on it.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1103
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Let's say we take Bridgewater at 1-1, then Van Noy at 2-1, and then maybe Daniel McCullers at 3-1.
No pass rusher even close to Clowney. That's my point. If you're one of those who think we should get the best pass rusher we can plus the best QB we can, you're in better shape if you take Clowney, then the best QB on the board in the second.

Or if you need the best WR & best QB, or the best OT & best QB...... there isn't going to be a pass rusher, WR, or OT available in the second round close to what you can get at those positions in the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
The tone of your post makes it sound like if we take one of the QBs at 1-1, the rest of our draft is going to be a bunch of scrubs but if we take someone like Clowney, then we'll have a better rest of the draft.
Not at all..... I don't even want Clowney. What you suggested in this thread would be fine by me, even though I would go heavy on the offensive side of the ball.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1104
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
The one thing I've learned doing the Texan's Talk Mock Drafts of the past few years is that you never know how it's going to play out. There are always surprises.

On the offensive side, I'm not too worried. It's all about the QB and the RT for me. I think we have a stable of TEs and WRs that OB is going to be happy with. I think we have enough talent along the line for him to work with except for the RT. That's why I'm expecting a QB at 1-1 -- either Bortles or Bridgewater... but I don't expect it enough to bet on it.
OB is going to want at least one reliable big TE blocker........something of a stretch to call anyone on this team at the present.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1105
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I take the team with a dominant D and a top 15 QB over a team with medicore D with a top 5 QB any day.

My question is if we draft Clowney, what are the odds the Texans D will become dominant. If we draft a QB at 1:1 what are the odds he becomes a top 5 QB in the future, assuming you're a believer that an elite QB can beat a dominant defense?

If we are that much closer of becoming a dominant defensive team with the addition of Clowney, then I take my chances with a 2nd round QB or free agents to produce at a top 15 level.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1106
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
OB is going to want at least one reliable big TE blocker........something of a stretch to call anyone on this team at the present.
I think he'll want a 6'5 or better TE .
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Old 02-16-2014   #1107
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
The entire point being made earlier was that one guy on a D line isn't going to make or break any team. A great QB can and will. Mario was never a great Dlineman. He was never in the runnings for defensive players of the year. He was often injured, lacked explosiveness on a consistent basis, and disappeared a lot. The Texans sure as hell weren't going to pay him that kind of money and that right there is pretty alarming considering the fact that the Texans will lock guys up who deserve it. No one even questions if they will lock up Watt and he is everything Mario never could be. And even with Watt the Texans went 2-14 this season. Clowney is a guy who wasn't even an impact player this season when all eyes were on him to perform. That is a perfect example of a guy who will disappoint when the big moments are there.
If we were to draft Clowney that would be TWO potentially great DL on this team and I haven't seen anyone suggest we should stop there. There are six more draft picks not counting compensary picks and FA still to its lose for more picks.

Not taking a side In this debate or suggesting this is what we should do. Just pointing out that it's not a good argument to say just one DL isn't going to make a difference.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1108
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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If we were to draft Clowney that would be TWO potentially great DL on this team and I haven't seen anyone suggest we should stop there. There are six more draft picks not counting compensary picks and FA still to its lose for more picks.

Not taking a side In this debate or suggesting this is what we should do. Just pointing out that it's not a good argument to say just one DL isn't going to make a difference.
The thing is that one of the arguments seems to be that if we get Clowney and pair him up with Watt, our DL is going to be so dominant that we're going to be an automatic contender.

I have several problems with that.

The first is that I don't think Clowney is going to be a great defensive lineman. He has the talent to be but I don't think he's got the heart, the desire, or the motor for it. Granted, I could be wrong about that.

The second is that even if Clowney does become a great defensive lineman, is that really going to drastically improve our team? There are a lot of teams that have had great defensive lines that have not done all that well.

If we're going to shore up our line, I think we'd get a MUCH bigger boost by getting a guy to be our Wilfork/Washington and get rid of the smallish, penetrating NT experiment we've been having the past several years.

But... to me... our DEs weren't our problem last year. Our biggest problems last year were our:
1. QB
2. RT
3. OLB
4. S
5. NT

If we end up taking Clowney, great. I'll be pulling for him and I'm sure Crennel will be able to whip up something that uses him properly. But I hope we're a helluva lot smarter with our other picks and in FA so that we have some very impactful players at positions we really need to upgrade.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1109
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I hear a lot of talking, but I haven't seen a lot of solutions. The real question here that everyone is overlooking by saying things like "freak of nature", "once in a decade talent", "etc." is How will he fit in the system?

He may be the most physically gifted player, but if he doesn't fit, or there is no spot for him, then it doesn't work IMO and should NOT be done.

He will almost certainly not be playing the 3-4 DE, so all this talk about our line improving is technically false FYI. But OK, moving on, so he might play the 'Elephant' AKA Willie McG, guess what that means? Merciless (first round pick 2 years ago is effectively rendered useless). So now you have added Clowney and subtracted Merciless. I have been very disappointed with him up to this point, but I'm not writing him off yet, which is what we would be doing.

So now, we are in a position where we need to draft Clowney, trade Merciless, and THEN go hope a QB that is a good fit will be there when you need them.

Oh and drafting Jimmy G at 2.01 not being a stretch (roughly 20-30 big board positions early) but drafting one of the big 3 at 1.01 (roughly 5-10 big board positions early) is not justified makes ZERO sense to me. If you are against reaching for a QB at 1.01, stand behind your statement and don't reach for them at 2.01 either. Maybe we can draft TJ Yates again in the 5th now.

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Nomination for most ridiculous post of the year for sure.
I think he's implying that Carr got 2 rings without having to lift a finger.
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Old 02-16-2014   #1110
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
#16 Mario Williams
Total earnings: $33.2 million
Salary/winnings: $32.9 million
Endorsements: $250,000

Williams signed a $100 million, six-year free agent deal with the Buffalo Bills in March that includes $50 million in guaranteed money. The Houston Texans controversially chose Williams ahead of Reggie Bush with the number one overall draft pick in 2006, but Williams thrived in Texas with 53 sacks and two Pro Bowl appearances in six years.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mli45...ario-williams/
****
THE 100 MILLION DOLLAR BUST, RIGHT ?
Are we measuring success in terms of contract dollars now? We could sign Michael Vick or Gilbert Arenas to a $100 MILL contract too, it doesn't mean it's right.

We also won 0 playoff games with Mario on the field, and it's pretty funny that our first playoff win in team history came the year he was on the IR.

How many playoff games did the Bills win the last 2 years BTW? I tried to Google it and NOTHING came up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
You could also trade a 2015 2nd for a 2014 3rd. Which is what I would try to do since this draft is so deep in talent.
Trading a 2 for a 3 is never good GM'ing IMO. We will soon begin to see that EVERY draft will become deeper and deeper. More and more younger players coming out every year.

More and More increase and separation in the popularity of football in America compared to other sports. I read somewhere the most popular sport in America was NFL. The #2... College Football.

More and more global players coming to the NFL, etc, etc, etc.

All I'm saying is that these drafts will be getting better and better every year, and I've got a funny feeling that the Texans won't go QB at #1 and this means that our 2nd is gonna be PRETTY valuable again.

All of this is just my opinion though.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1111
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
He may be the most physically gifted player, but if he doesn't fit, or there is no spot for him, then it doesn't work IMO and should NOT be done.

He will almost certainly not be playing the 3-4 DE, so all this talk about our line improving is technically false FYI. But OK, moving on, so he might play the 'Elephant' AKA Willie McG, guess what that means? Merciless (first round pick 2 years ago is effectively rendered useless). So now you have added Clowney and subtracted Merciless. I have been very disappointed with him up to this point, but I'm not writing him off yet, which is what we would be doing.
I agree with what you're saying. If Clowney doesn't fit, we shouldn't even be thinking about him. But this RAC & traditional 3-4 is just a bunch of yap. He was running hybrid defenses before it was cool. Give any DC worth his salt a Jj Watt & a JaDaveon Clowney & he'll get you something that works...

As far as Mecilus goes... he's had his opportunities to prove he can be a dominant pass rusher in the NFL. Just like Case, he hasn't shown enough to this point where we can take such an important position off the board. We don't need just a QB, or just a pass rusher, we need A QB, pass rusher, ILB, TE, OG, RB, Safety.... not in any particular order, but we need starters at all those positions except RB. Well, we've got Manning but just like Whitney & Case, they haven't earned a starting job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post

Oh and drafting Jimmy G at 2.01 not being a stretch (roughly 20-30 big board positions early) but drafting one of the big 3 at 1.01 (roughly 5-10 big board positions early) is not justified makes ZERO sense to me. If you are against reaching for a QB at 1.01, stand behind your statement and don't reach for them at 2.01 either. Maybe we can draft TJ Yates again in the 5th now.
Well find a pass rusher, WR, OG that grades out like Clowney, Watkins, or Robinson in the second or later.

Granted, we can probably find an upgrade over Derek Newton in the second, or even 3.1 that's fine. You don't want the best OT in this draft, I understand.

Yes, we can probably find an ILB better than Darryl Sharpton (no relation) in the second, third, maybe even 4th.

But a pass rusher that is likely to be better than Whitney or Brooks in the second or later?? Not likely. All the "most likely to succeed" pass rusher will be gone before you're halfway through the first round.

But this is a deep QB draft. Metenberge..... everything you're looking for in a prototypical QB. Size, arm, competition level, pro offense...... he tore an ACL.... it's not like we expect him to be Cam Newton. Aj McCarron, another guy pretty close to prototypical.... suffered from being on a good team. But he's smart, accurate, stands in the pocket, ran a pro-ish system, set records in passing for Alabama. IMO those two should be 1st round prospects, but only so many team will be looking for a QB.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1112
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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But a pass rusher that is likely to be better than Whitney or Brooks in the second or later?? Not likely. All the "most likely to succeed" pass rusher will be gone before you're halfway through the first round.
Then again, we did "find" Sam Montgomery in the third & Travardo... then Willie Jefferson undrafted, so who knows?
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Old 02-17-2014   #1113
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
The thing is that one of the arguments seems to be that if we get Clowney and pair him up with Watt, our DL is going to be so dominant that we're going to be an automatic contender.

I have several problems with that.

The first is that I don't think Clowney is going to be a great defensive lineman. He has the talent to be but I don't think he's got the heart, the desire, or the motor for it. Granted, I could be wrong about that.

The second is that even if Clowney does become a great defensive lineman, is that really going to drastically improve our team? There are a lot of teams that have had great defensive lines that have not done all that well.

If we're going to shore up our line, I think we'd get a MUCH bigger boost by getting a guy to be our Wilfork/Washington and get rid of the smallish, penetrating NT experiment we've been having the past several years.

But... to me... our DEs weren't our problem last year. Our biggest problems last year were our:
1. QB
2. RT
3. OLB
4. S
5. NT

If we end up taking Clowney, great. I'll be pulling for him and I'm sure Crennel will be able to whip up something that uses him properly. But I hope we're a helluva lot smarter with our other picks and in FA so that we have some very impactful players at positions we really need to upgrade.
I'm in agreement with you on the needs. You can also add nickel CB to the list. The thing the Texans need to add the most is SPEED. This team has been lacking team speed for yrs.

We disagree about whether Clowney will be a star. Since I don't like any of the top 3 QB's in this draft it only makes since to draft the best player in the draft. I don't want to miss out on another Peppers. I try to learn from past history, which is take the player with the most potential for greatness instead of reaching for a QB because they need one. That's what they did with the 1st pick in franchise history and the franchise still hasn't really recovered from that decision. On the other hand if you think one of the QB's WILL be a top 5 QB then that's the pick. But I don't see any of them reaching that status.

With that said, BoB/Cal/Rick are going to pick Manziel, continuing the glitz over substance theme that's prevalent in the way the franchise is being run.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1114
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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With that said, BoB/Cal/Rick are going to pick Manziel, continuing the glitz over substance theme that's prevalent in the way the franchise is being run.
Completely agree with team speed, or if we get speed, those are the guys that don't know where to be on a football field.

While I think Rick is a bad GM at the draft I tend to disagree with this statement. When was the last time with our first pick that we passed up the 'best prospect' for the glitz?

I would argue the last time this was a relevant question we passed on the glitz (VY).

And if you don't reach on a QB in an NFL draft you will never draft a QB, that simple. It's like RBs in fantasy football. If you wait for best available player you are gonna have a team of like 14 WRs and a kicker, the only difference is that you can't draft Ben Roethlisberger in the 10th round of real football.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1115
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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And if you don't reach on a QB in an NFL draft you will never draft a QB, that simple.
Why do you believe this? Who had to reach on a QB to get a franchise guy?

Indy? GreenBay? New Orleans? Seattle?

The only reaches I see that are still playing in the league, are Vick, Newton, Bradford, Stafford... I'm sure there's another one out there, but I'm not seeing the evidence to back up your statement.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1116
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Why do you believe this? Who had to reach on a QB to get a franchise guy?

Indy? GreenBay? New Orleans? Seattle?

The only reaches I see that are still playing in the league, are Vick, Newton, Bradford, Stafford... I'm sure there's another one out there, but I'm not seeing the evidence to back up your statement.
Don't be messing up his TB man love with facts.

You could also add Kaep/Foles/Romo/Dalton/Ben to the list of guys that are better than the reaches you listed.

So yes, you can find a QB without reaching, but since TB love is running rampant he cant see the forest for the trees.

Give me Clowney/Robinson/Mack/Barr/Matthews over the top 3 QB's any day and one of the 3M's or Garoppolo at 2-1.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1117
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Trading a 2 for a 3 is never good GM'ing IMO. We will soon begin to see that EVERY draft will become deeper and deeper. More and more younger players coming out every year.

All I'm saying is that these drafts will be getting better and better every year, and I've got a funny feeling that the Texans won't go QB at #1 and this means that our 2nd is gonna be PRETTY valuable again.

All of this is just my opinion though.
Next years draft will be weak. With so many underclassmen declaring this year it will have an effect on next years draft.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1118
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Don't be messing up his TB man love with facts.

You could also add Kaep/Foles/Romo/Dalton/Ben to the list of guys that are better than the reaches you listed.

So yes, you can find a QB without reaching, but since TB love is running rampant he cant see the forest for the trees.

Give me Clowney/Robinson/Mack/Barr/Matthews over the top 3 QB's any day and one of the 3M's or Garoppolo at 2-1.
lol Dalton.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1119
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Then again, we did "find" Sam Montgomery in the third & Travardo... then Willie Jefferson undrafted, so who knows?
We know haw many errors in evaluation/judgement were made on last year's draft class. One thing that I never posted on previously, was information that I researched on Trevardo Williams. Remember, when he had this uncharacterized injury he sustained in the preseason finale? All news reports coming from the Texans read "It's unclear what Williams' injury is, but his leg got "rolled up" in the preseason finale." Well, in the next to last game of the 2012 season with UConn, Williams suffered a severe right high ankle sprain and did not play again. While running the 40 at the Combine, he re-aggravated this same ankle. During his preseason finale with the Texans, this "rolled leg" should have been characterized as a "rolled ankle"...........and more accurately as a high ankle sprain re-injury. By now it should be well known that high ankle sprains can be very long-term recoveries if not "forever" type of concerns. The question again must be asked why he was taken in a spot that should have no real questions, especially for more immediate contribution. And, BTW, Willie Jefferson is now with the Bills.
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Old 02-17-2014   #1120
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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By now it should be well known that high ankle sprains can be very long-term recoveries if not "forever" type of concerns. The question again must be asked why he was taken in a spot that should have no real questions, especially for more immediate contribution.
For clarification, are you saying someone who has ever had a high ankle sprain should not be taken in the 1st 3 rounds? - x rounds? - not unless they are more than a year post injury?
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