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Old 02-15-2014   #1061
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
To the contrary, the Cowboys haven't been trying to figure that out at all. They have been very dedicated to him. They just gave him a new contract which essentially means he will retire a Cowboy.

But what was the point you were trying to make?
Well, let's see. Corrosion said, "If you've got a QB, you're in the play-offs for the next 10 years with a chance to win the Lombardy every year. Just having a great defense doesn't even get you to the play-offs."

Then I said, "What about the Cowboys & Romo. How long have they been messing with him? He hasn't been to the play-offs any more than Schaub."

Maybe I meant that Romo doesn't like Chinese food in January.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1062
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Agreed. Too many QBs will be available at 2-1 to be worried about missing out on Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles, & Carr. Those guys will probably be fine QBs in the league for years to come. But so will Murray, so will Metenberger, so will Fales.

Then there are the guys you can/might gamble on... Garropolo, Boyd, Morris, Smith, Shaw, Matthews, Renner, Thomas.

This is a great QB draft in terms of quantity. No elites, but several good quality prospects.
This all the QBs are equal stuff is bunk. Please show me the draft class that produced 7 just fine QBs much less you left off your boy so make that at least 8.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1063
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
This all the QBs are equal stuff is bunk. Please show me the draft class that produced 7 just fine QBs much less you left off your boy so make that at least 8.
Most likely only 4 of the 8 will be considered a quality starter. Maybe only 3 of the 8. But I don't know which 3, or 4. & even though "every body else" has Carr & Bortles up there in the first, as one of the "quality prospects" I don't. I only mention them to be polite. So that 8 is only 6.

Maybe all 6 make it, but I doubt it.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1064
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Then I said, "What about the Cowboys & Romo. How long have they been messing with him? He hasn't been to the play-offs any more than Schaub."
The Cowboys have 0 losing seasons where Romo was the starter for the majority of the season, i.e. they have been in the playoff picture to the end every year. And he has been to the play-offs 1 more time.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1065
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
If there was a QB worth gambling on at 1-1 I would be in agreement with you. I would rather gamble on a Garappolo at 2-1 than any of the top 3 at 1-1. There's not much difference between them. IMHO
I do think there is a pretty significant difference between Manziel & Bridgewater and all the rest. Those two have special skills that the rest of the QB's in this draft just don't have which cant be taught nor learned.

Those guys don't come without questions of their own .... but they are far less significant than the questions Clowney comes with.

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How long have the Cowboys been trying to figure out if Romo is the right guy? His numbers are right there with the elite guys. But he hasn't been to anymore play-off games than Matt Schaub.
With Dallas the problem isn't Romo .... Its Jerrah.

They don't have a coach , they have a yes man.

They don't have a GM , they have an owner playing Madden .... in real life.


Romo has been set up to fail from day one.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1066
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Well, let's see. Corrosion said, "If you've got a QB, you're in the play-offs for the next 10 years with a chance to win the Lombardy every year. Just having a great defense doesn't even get you to the play-offs."
It's pretty obvious that right now the 2 best teams in the NFL are the Seahawks and the 49ers, and they are comparable teams in that they both have tremendous defense while their QBs, though certainly effective, aren't
rated among the NFLs best. So I'd have to say that Corrosion's view is invalid.
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Then I said, "What about the Cowboys & Romo. How long have they been messing with him? He hasn't been to the play-offs any more than Schaub."
I'm a Romo fan, but I think Jerry is gonna have to retool in N.texas very soon which will probably include replacing the soon to be mid-thirties Romo. Actually I think Manzeil and the Cowboys would be a good match, maybe Jerry can trade up this year again.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1067
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
It's pretty obvious that right now the 2 best teams in the NFL are the Seahawks and the 49ers, and they are comparable teams in that they both have tremendous defense while their QBs, though certainly effective, aren't
rated among the NFLs best. So I'd have to say that Corrosion's view is invalid.
You are looking at a very narrow band of time .... Take a look at the last decade or two instead. I think my point is validated over time.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1068
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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If he has surgery after the draft, how long until he's good to practice/play?
It really depends on what the underlying pathology is and what surgery is required...............could (legitimately) be anywhere from 6-10 weeks to walk comfortably and anywhere from 12 to 16 weeks before a full return to play, if the surgery is successful. Chronic pain can still limit production, and there can be about a 15% failure and/or recurrence rate.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1069
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I would be all for trading the pick if the price is right.

I look at his 2012 production/play more than his 2013 play.

This is all a moot point. Manziel is going to be the pick. He's already hob nobing around with Cal/Rick. Manziel is a really smart guy.
I posted a link to his 4 sack game in 2012. I would like you to tell me what do you see even in the 4 sack game.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1070
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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It's pretty obvious that right now the 2 best teams in the NFL are the Seahawks and the 49ers, and they are comparable teams in that they both have tremendous defense while their QBs, though certainly effective, aren't
rated among the NFLs best. So I'd have to say that Corrosion's view is invalid.
LOL now that is selling a storyline. Russell Wilson's 1st two seasons have both been over 100 QB rating. Find another example of that. Kaep's 93.8 on his two seasons. That doesn't take into account the rushing they have added. You are way, way underselling the value of those two.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1071
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
LOL now that is selling a storyline. Russell Wilson's 1st two seasons have both been over 100 QB rating. Find another example of that. Kaep's 93.8 on his two seasons. That doesn't take into account the rushing they have added. You are way, way underselling the value of those two.
Russell's a third round pick and therefor there's no reason for us to waste the top pick on this Draft when we can use our second or third on a QB and still get one of the best defensive prospects in the Draft in a generation which would give us a big step up towards establishing a top defense.
This Draft is littered with good QB prospects in the later part of the first round and second round so there's no point in "overpaying" for a smart azz little runt who's game won't make it in the NFL. Truth is I maybe see Manziel
competing against Vince Young in the Canadian league in a couple years.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1072
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I posted a link to his 4 sack game in 2012. I would like you to tell me what do you see even in the 4 sack game.
Cant find the post with the link.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1073
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
You are looking at a very narrow band of time .... Take a look at the last decade or two instead. I think my point is validated over time.
Don't take it personal Corrosion, but I think you are mistaken here because the model for success in this league for now and in the future is in San Fran and the Pac NW.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1074
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Russell's a third round pick and therefor there's no reason for us to waste the top pick on this Draft when we can use our second or third on a QB
You ever heard "the exception proves the rule?" You don't get it.

Russell proves nothing other than it is exceptional to be able to get top end performance out of a 3rd round QB.

But if you are going to play that silly game it still doesn't work because the exceptions are more abundant for DEs.

Michael Strahan - 2nd
Jared Allen - 4th
Robert Mathis - 5th
Elvis Dumervil - 4th
Charles Haley - 4th
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Old 02-15-2014   #1075
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You ever heard "the exception proves the rule?" You don't get it.

Russell proves nothing other than it is exceptional to be able to get top end performance out of a 3rd round QB.

But if you are going to play that silly game it still doesn't work because the exceptions are more abundant for DEs.

Michael Strahan - 2nd
Jared Allen - 4th
Robert Mathis - 5th
Elvis Dumervil - 4th
Charles Haley - 4th
This is why I hate the "this guy's not worth being taken at 1-1" mindset.

In 2006, our options were Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, Vince Young, and Mario Williams. D'Brickashaw Ferguson would have been acceptable but surprising in that spot.

Most people agree that we made the "right choice" with Mario Williams.

But did we?

If you look at QB's from that draft, Jay Cutler has easily been the most productive. If we had taken him at 1-1, people would have freaked out.

In terms of pure productivity, we should have taken Jahri Evans (4th round, pick 108). He's been All Pro 4 years and to the Pro Bowl for 5. Other guys that we should have taken would have been Nick Mangold (1st round, pick 29), Brandon Marshall (4th round, pick 119), or Haloti Ngata (1st round, pick 12). Or even Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round, pick 60)! In terms of leadership, we would have been better off taken Demeco Ryans with our first pick.

You've got to look at it in terms of... which pick is going to do the most to improve our team. Is Clowney going to make our team that much better?

I don't think so. You look at teams who've put together great defensive lines and many of them haven't ended up doing all that much. How many Super Bowls did the Purple People Eaters win? 0. How many championships did the Fearsome Foursome win? 0. How much has Jared Allen helped the Minnesota Vikings? How much has having a bunch of great players on the line helped the Lions?

If we go Clowney, I won't be expecting a lot except mediocrity unless they can make some draft picks later in the draft that will contribute more to our success. They'll have to pull a Tom Brady or Russell Wilson out of thin air.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1076
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
If there was a QB worth gambling on at 1-1 I would be in agreement with you. I would rather gamble on a Garappolo at 2-1 than any of the top 3 at 1-1. There's not much difference between them. IMHO
The problem is, how do you know Garoppolo will be there at 2-1? The only draft position that the Texans know for sure who will be there is 1-1.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1077
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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The problem is, how do you know Garoppolo will be there at 2-1? The only draft position that the Texans know for sure who will be there is 1-1.
Pretty easy solution, take BPA. Go for best available QB next pick or specifically target one to either move up or back. Not like a team is locked into a slot, always takers, movers & shakers.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1078
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
This is why I hate the "this guy's not worth being taken at 1-1" mindset.

In 2006, our options were Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, Vince Young, and Mario Williams. D'Brickashaw Ferguson would have been acceptable but surprising in that spot.

Most people agree that we made the "right choice" with Mario Williams.

But did we?

If you look at QB's from that draft, Jay Cutler has easily been the most productive. If we had taken him at 1-1, people would have freaked out.

In terms of pure productivity, we should have taken Jahri Evans (4th round, pick 108). He's been All Pro 4 years and to the Pro Bowl for 5. Other guys that we should have taken would have been Nick Mangold (1st round, pick 29), Brandon Marshall (4th round, pick 119), or Haloti Ngata (1st round, pick 12). Or even Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round, pick 60)! In terms of leadership, we would have been better off taken Demeco Ryans with our first pick.

You've got to look at it in terms of... which pick is going to do the most to improve our team. Is Clowney going to make our team that much better?

I don't think so. You look at teams who've put together great defensive lines and many of them haven't ended up doing all that much. How many Super Bowls did the Purple People Eaters win? 0. How many championships did the Fearsome Foursome win? 0. How much has Jared Allen helped the Minnesota Vikings? How much has having a bunch of great players on the line helped the Lions?

If we go Clowney, I won't be expecting a lot except mediocrity unless they can make some draft picks later in the draft that will contribute more to our success. They'll have to pull a Tom Brady or Russell Wilson out of thin air.
The Steelers Joe Greene DL was pretty good

Raiders Howie Long DL, Not bad

49ers Micheal Carter Haley DL could play a little.

Oilers Culp/Bethea yep
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Old 02-15-2014   #1079
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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The problem is, how do you know Garoppolo will be there at 2-1? The only draft position that the Texans know for sure who will be there is 1-1.
If after the combine/pro days if you think he might be picked in the 25/32 range then you trade up and pick him. Most mocks I've seen have him going in the 3rd. Although that could be because draftniks haven't seen him play.

Garoppolo reminds me of Romo.
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Old 02-15-2014   #1080
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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If after the combine/pro days you think he might be picked in the 25/32 range then you trade up and pick him.
You say that, but there's nothing that forces a team to trade with you. If you're going to pass on a QB at 1-1, you have to be confident that there will be enough depth at the position where there is likely someone at 2-1. I guess my point is, that there is a gamble either way you look at it.
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