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Old 01-25-2014   #581
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
Please, tell me what prospect in recent memory has more natural ability than Jadeveon Clowney? Also stats in college for a DE can be very misleading, he missed a couple games this year and played with minor injuries throughout the season and of course appeared at times to be disinterested in the game. Obviously his Jr year raised many questions of his motivation and desire to win/play for his teammates.

Once again, I am not denying that he has 1. Injury concerns 2. Motivation issues 3. Character concerns. These these things keep him from being a surefire first overall pick...

But there is no doubt he is the best talent in this draft, and just about every scout or industry man will tell you the same.

People act like Clowney was some no heard of guy until that big sports center play, which is false and shows how little some people actually follow football. Clowney has been the big man on campus since he was 16. He was one of the most heavily recruited prospects of all time, the unanimous #1 guy of his recruiting class, and got non stop coverage from day 1 at South Carolina. All of this has surely gotten to his head though, and it shows on the field with his effort.

Clowney is not my first choice either, I have a couple other guys I prefer over him at 1.1. But the reality is there is a chance we do take him first, and there is still a ton of time for that decision to be made. So keep an open mind and don't denounce every prospect that isn't "your guy"
Get used to it. Say anything positive at all about anyone and you are labeled a homer or lover or (insert name) fanboy. The criticism of the top players around here is ridiculous. There's not much objectivity around here anymore. Most have their minds made up on who they want and you better not say anything negative about them no matter how legitimate a concern it is. And you better not say anything positive about any of the other top prospects either. Because if it's not their guy they are going to blow up and make ridiculous comments like the one above.


It's like all day here.

I like things about all four of the top players, Clowney, Manziel, Bortles and Bridgewater. There is no clear cut favorite. They all have flaws and that is what makes all of them worth the number one pick if it's deemed they are a good fit by our coaches, scouts and GM.

No matter who we pick there is going to be some seriously unhappy people around here. Not me! There is nothing I can do to change what is going to happen so **** it! I'm going to sit back and enjoy this ride.



Unless they don't pick one of those four!!!! Then I'm going to be pissed!!!!
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Old 01-25-2014   #582
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Get used to it. Say anything positive at all about anyone and you are labeled a homer or lover or (insert name) fanboy. The criticism of the top players around here is ridiculous. There's not much objectivity around here anymore. Most have their minds made up on who they want and you better not say anything negative about them no matter how legitimate a concern it is. And you better not say anything positive about any of the other top prospects either. Because if it's not their guy they are going to blow up and make ridiculous comments like the one above.


It's like all day here.
Characterizing the MB on the conduct of a handful is incorrect.
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Old 01-26-2014   #583
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I can only judge by what my eyes have seen in the couple of games of his I've watched. And what I see is: no motor.
Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.
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Old 01-26-2014   #584
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.
These kind of pop quiz requests really serve no purpose.

Not everyone has every game available, nor the time and inclination to re-watch to find example plays which inevitably will then only be rejected anyway.

It's comes across as internet bravado. JMO, carry on.
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Old 01-26-2014   #585
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
These kind of pop quiz requests really serve no purpose.

Not everyone has every game available, nor the time and inclination to re-watch to find example plays which inevitably will then only be rejected anyway.
When I was called out on using the double team 'excuse', I did an individual study of Clowney's UNC and Tennessee games from this year to point out when it did, in fact, happen. If someone wants to throw out some worthless, ephemeral statement like 'Oh, he has no motor', by all means, but not without backing it up when asked.

I can point to the play where Clowney is tripped up after immediately launching into the backfield. Tennessee ran the ball away from him anyways, and Clowney chased after the carrier on all fours before getting to his feet. The motor argument is stupid and evidence that people in this fandom are too scarred by the Mario Williams experience to not have it color their perspective of any athletic pass-rusher.
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Old 01-26-2014   #586
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
When I was called out on using the double team 'excuse', I did an individual study of Clowney's UNC and Tennessee games from this year to point out when it did, in fact, happen. If someone wants to throw out some worthless, ephemeral statement like 'Oh, he has no motor', by all means, but not without backing it up when asked.
And what did that devolve into? - an argument over what's a double team. No purpose was served.

You attempting to back up your own assertions = cool.

You attempting to demand a specific playlist as some sort of qualification for having an opinion = not cool, but you're free to do so.
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Old 01-26-2014   #587
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
And what did that devolve into? - an argument over what's a double team. No purpose was served.
And I tried to differentiate between getting help from the guard, getting chipped by the TE/RB, or a straight-up double team. The point was still that Clowney got a LOT of excess attention and couldn't be left 1v1, and this was with the team running away from him.

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You attempting to back up your own assertions = cool.

You attempting to demand a specific playlist as some sort of qualification for having an opinion = not cool, but you're free to do so.
Thank you for the praise, but I guess my point is more along the lines of: if you're going to assert something like the 'effort' or 'motor' argument, BACK IT UP. It's just lazily thrown about and people regurgitate it without doing any research, either.

The truth is that it's frustrating to try and back your argument up with analysis and some bum will just go "Uh well MARIO WILLIAMS, see, so therefore 3 sacks = no motor/motivation problems." It'd be funny that people who throw out the laziness argument are, well, being lazy, if it wasn't so pervasive.
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Old 01-26-2014   #588
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Thank you for the praise, but I guess my point is more along the lines of: if you're going to assert something like the 'effort' or 'motor' argument, BACK IT UP. It's just lazily thrown about and people regurgitate it without doing any research, either.
There is nothing lazy in not wanting to play tape battles on every opinion. I watch lots of football but I don't record everything and I'm not going to go spend hours re-watching games just to have an opinion here especially when experience shows it is a wasted effort. eg. I thought Tajh Boyd had horribly erratic drop-backs and footwork today but I have no inclination to go watch the game over to specify plays to "prove" it. Failing to do so doesn't mean I am regurgitating or not doing any research.

I'm not attacking you or telling you to change anything. Just my opinion is it comes across as a useless and semi-internet tough guy approach.
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Old 01-26-2014   #589
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
There is nothing lazy in not wanting to play tape battles on every opinion. I watch lots of football but I don't record everything and I'm not going to go spend hours re-watching games just to have an opinion here especially when experience shows it is a wasted effort. eg. I thought Tajh Boyd had horribly erratic drop-backs and footwork today but I have no inclination to go watch the game over to specify plays to "prove" it. Failing to do so doesn't mean I am regurgitating or not doing any research.

I'm not attacking you or telling you to change anything. Just my opinion is it comes across as a useless and semi-internet tough guy approach.
I don't have a lot of free time, either, but even the longest cut-up of Clowney is 10 minutes on Youtube, but that's just watching Youtube. You could find the article that talks about Clowney playing 76%+ of defensive snaps and increasing his QB hits, etc.

I pointed out as much to Texecutioner, who merely handwaived it with "Yeah but Mario Williams!" if he even addressed them at all, settling on some...history argument? I guess? Or direct comparisons between distribution of talent on NFL and NCAA teams, which is even more hilariously inept.

Point is, I could do all the analysis I want, but some people are just lazy and don't want to put in the work...but still want to give an opinion, as lazy as it might be. You can call it internet tough guy stuff, but all that is is just enabling the lazy posters.

Like, look at this:

Quote:
This double team crap is the worst stuff being put out there about Clowney. It's the same stupid excuses that people used to make for Mario Williams for years. Bonafied pass rushers find ways to be effective with double teams. You think guys like Mathis aren't double teamed? They are a lot, and they still make plays. They don't' all of a sudden fall off for an entire season and produce some pathetic 4 sacks and disappear often in games. JJ Watt makes himself productive all over the field, because he never stops going on every play. Double teams be damned, JJ is still going to be effective on the field and make offenses adjust to him.
None of that addresses anything I said, and just threw out the '4 sacks!!' number. By that logic, Watt had a 'pathetic' year. Someone will read that preceding sentence and squeal "But his TFLs and QB hits were really high!" and I will say the same thing about Clowney.

Nobody cares because it's easier to just be lazy, and accuse someone else of laziness. Hilarious.
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Old 01-26-2014   #590
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Characterizing the MB on the conduct of a handful is incorrect.
Agreed,
I'm a Clowney guy

But if I'm BO'B I'm taking the guy who knocks my socks off at the combine.
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Old 01-26-2014   #591
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Just to clear things up here about options to Clowney among non-QBs: I don't see any. Jake Matthews ? Many are now recognizing that he might not even be a RT propsect, let along a LT prospect. Barr, the UCLA LB ? get real, he's been a running back his whole life who just starting playing defense in the last coople years. Now I would argue that WR Sammy Watkins is the best non QB prospect in this Draft after Clowney, but we just used last years top pick on another WR, former Watkins teammate at Clemson DeAndrew Hopkins who along with Andre Johnson now are part of one of our strongest positions. In other words we won't be drafting a WR this year unless it's in the late rounds.
Long story shortened - there's no option but Clowney among non-QBs.
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Old 01-26-2014   #592
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by matts290 View Post
I totally agree, he is no way a sure fire 1.1 pick...far from it. If he had a high motor and shown notable better character and work ethic over the last year, I think this thread would probably be 1/3 it's size an we would be more focused at discussing shot he best QB is available to us at 2.33
No argument there .... but the fact is he does have motor concerns , injury concerns and character concerns , thus we are all over the place on the guy.
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Old 01-26-2014   #593
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

http://www.kbtx.com/sports/headlines...241906471.html

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Texas A&M University offensive lineman Jake Matthews will participate in the 2014 Quicken Loans All-Star Football Challenge, an exciting skills competition featuring college football’s brightest stars. The 16th annual program is scheduled to air Tuesday, Jan. 28, at 9 p.m. ET on ESPN2 and will have an encore airing on ESPN2 at 2 p.m. ET on Feb. 2. ESPN will also air an encore at 4 p.m. ET on April 27.
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Old 01-26-2014   #594
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Just to clear things up here about options to Clowney among non-QBs: I don't see any. Jake Matthews ? Many are now recognizing that he might not even be a RT propsect, let along a LT prospect. Barr, the UCLA LB ? get real, he's been a running back his whole life who just starting playing defense in the last coople years. Now I would argue that WR Sammy Watkins is the best non QB prospect in this Draft after Clowney, but we just used last years top pick on another WR, former Watkins teammate at Clemson DeAndrew Hopkins who along with Andre Johnson now are part of one of our strongest positions. In other words we won't be drafting a WR this year unless it's in the late rounds.
Long story shortened - there's no option but Clowney among non-QBs.
Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?
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Old 01-26-2014   #595
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?
If they really like any player they don't figure will make it to 2:1, and they can't trade down then they take that player at 1:1
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Old 01-26-2014   #596
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?
Great hypothetical (or maybe a real life situation for a certain team in the 2014 draft) ! Here's one scenario/answer: punt !
That's basically what the great Bill Parcelles did in the 2008 Draft when he was the man running the Miami Dolphins Personnel department. He used the 'Phins top pick on Michigan OT Jake Long who was considered a reasonable safe pick to succeed in the NFL but certainly not the most talented prospect or the player with the greatest upside in the Draft. Many were unsure Long could even make it as a LT in the NFL but figured he could make it as a RT, but he's had a reasonable solid career, i.e., he's not a bust.
Now I'm not sure who Jake Long would be in this years Draft or even if he's there this year ?'
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Old 01-26-2014   #597
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.
OK. I just pulled up this: Jadeveon Clowney vs. Taylor Lewan 2013 Bowlgame. This is not the two games I'd seen him play previously. AND. It's a bowl game.

Second play of the video. 17 seconds into this. He rushes on a twist. The QB tries to run to the area Clowney vacated. That's all good. But when Clowney sees the play going away from him, he just jogs toward it. He doesn't run. If he had run there, he would have been in a better position to get the fumble.

At 1:09, the play goes inside of him and breaks for a long run. Once he sees he's out of the play, he's not trying to get himself back into it. In the slo-mo second version of that play, I kept expecting to see him come back into the camera but he never showed up. Which means he either stopped or he was just jogging after the play.

On the play at about 1:40, he gets doubled and when he sees the QB rushing the other way, he slows down.

On the play at about 3:09, the run is away from him and he initially pursues but then he slows down while the guy is still not down.

On the plays in the 3:35 range, he's starting to look tired and half-hearted.

On the play at about 4:01, he runs himself out of the play and then he becomes a spectator.

On the play at 4:09, he falls down. And then instead of getting up and chasing the play, he gets up and talks to the tackle.

On the next play, he rushes, the QB runs, Clowney jogs after and then when he realizes he could be in a position to hit him, he speeds up. If he had been moving at that speed for the entire play, he would have been in a better position to make a play.

On the play at 5:02, I don't know if it was called for him to take a slow contain rush but he looked lackadaisacal coming off the ball to me.

At the 8:10 mark, he gets doubled teamed. The play goes past and he just trudges downfield.

At the 8:18 mark... that was an AMAZING play. He had other opportunites to do that.

Again at 9:49, excellent play.

To me, there are a lot of times where he just doesn't look like he's in the game.
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Old 01-26-2014   #598
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/ar...7-0ac3c54a35e6

He's being double teamed all the time? Not really.

Quote:
Kendall: There were other factors. From what I saw at games and on film, the notion that teams double-teamed him every time was way overblown. They certainly did that and they certainly game planned for him, but that happens to all great players. A nagging foot injury (beon spurs which he may or may not have addressed surgically before the combine) and what seemed to be a wandering focus at times also affected his production.
On his motor (gotta tread the company line)

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Kendall: It seems to me it could get better. It's impossible for anyone outside the program to truly evaluate something like this I think, but from what I saw he needs to improve his offseason conditioning program among other things.

Quote:
Kendall: Strength and conditioning. Really good to great OTs in college football (meaning every OT in the NFL) handled him at times, mostly by getting their hands on him and overpowering him. If he can get himself in the kind of shape to stay away from those guys and improve his strength and ability to slap those hands away, he can make a big jump. Also, as I mentioned above, he'll need a technique to complement his swim move but that kind of stuff can wait I imagine.

Just some topics of note that are being thrown around. Not trying to rub his nose in it, but you cant just turn a blind eye and use the 'biggest freak in a decade' argument. Grain of salt kinda thing.
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Old 01-26-2014   #599
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

^^^Yeah, I listened to him when they had Deepi interviewing him, and I tended to agree. I should clarify that I'm not saying Clowney in fact has the drive and motor of Watt (though few - if any - do, which is sort of the point of Watt), only that the motor stuff gets a little overblown at time and people like to rely on it rather than actually put effort into it, unlike this.VVV

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
OK. I just pulled up this: Jadeveon Clowney vs. Taylor Lewan 2013 Bowlgame. This is not the two games I'd seen him play previously. AND. It's a bowl game.

Second play of the video. 17 seconds into this. He rushes on a twist. The QB tries to run to the area Clowney vacated. That's all good. But when Clowney sees the play going away from him, he just jogs toward it. He doesn't run. If he had run there, he would have been in a better position to get the fumble.

At 1:09, the play goes inside of him and breaks for a long run. Once he sees he's out of the play, he's not trying to get himself back into it. In the slo-mo second version of that play, I kept expecting to see him come back into the camera but he never showed up. Which means he either stopped or he was just jogging after the play.

On the play at about 1:40, he gets doubled and when he sees the QB rushing the other way, he slows down.

On the play at about 3:09, the run is away from him and he initially pursues but then he slows down while the guy is still not down.

On the plays in the 3:35 range, he's starting to look tired and half-hearted.

On the play at about 4:01, he runs himself out of the play and then he becomes a spectator.

On the play at 4:09, he falls down. And then instead of getting up and chasing the play, he gets up and talks to the tackle.

On the next play, he rushes, the QB runs, Clowney jogs after and then when he realizes he could be in a position to hit him, he speeds up. If he had been moving at that speed for the entire play, he would have been in a better position to make a play.

On the play at 5:02, I don't know if it was called for him to take a slow contain rush but he looked lackadaisacal coming off the ball to me.

At the 8:10 mark, he gets doubled teamed. The play goes past and he just trudges downfield.

At the 8:18 mark... that was an AMAZING play. He had other opportunites to do that.

Again at 9:49, excellent play.

To me, there are a lot of times where he just doesn't look like he's in the game.
I'm gonna watch this and see if this matches up, but an honest-to-Bob thank you for this.
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Old 01-26-2014   #600
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Not on the Clowney bandwagon here. Dude disappeared this year and motor concerns in my eyes.

Honestly, if the FO goes Clowney they need to hope they can either find a stop gap QB while they hope they can find a Kap or that a guy like Wilson falls to them in the second and third. I think that'd be a mistake though.

I really don't care whom they grade out higher between Bortles or Bidgewater. Personally I'm a Bridgewater guy, I think he's the best prospect this year. Either way pick one and roll with them. Otherwise we're looking at adding a big piece on defense and then still struggling on offense.
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