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Old 01-10-2014   #361
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
No one gets double and triple teamed all the time. It's not even about that. It's about how much attention does he get. How much game planning is there going on for him. If the play is being run away from him of course he will be single blocked. If it's a quick three step timing pass most likely he'll get one guy blocking him. It's the plays that are ran in his direction or the five step drop pass plays that you have to focus on.

And another thing. He is one of the best players in a long time at setting the edge. You have to understand his role in certain situations. Sometimes his responsibility is to turn the play inside. To make sure the offensive player doesn't get to the outside.
Before the 2013 season I was talking to my little brother telling him how lucky we would be if we could by some miracle end up with him. This of course was thinking Schaub wouldnt completely implode and we would actually get the number one draft pick. Now that we actually have the power to get a player like Clowney, I realize we need a QB more than another freak of nature DE. Two JJ Watt's would not have saved this past season. I was also hoping Keenum would be the answer to our QB problems and when we were fighting for the number one spot I hoped that he would pick it up and show us that we didnt need to address QB with our number one overall pick. At this point QB makes more sense than this awesome freak of nature talent.
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Old 01-10-2014   #362
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Before the 2013 season I was talking to my little brother telling him how lucky we would be if we could by some miracle end up with him. This of course was thinking Schaub wouldnt completely implode and we would actually get the number one draft pick. Now that we actually have the power to get a player like Clowney, I realize we need a QB more than another freak of nature DE. Two JJ Watt's would not have saved this past season. I was also hoping Keenum would be the answer to our QB problems and when we were fighting for the number one spot I hoped that he would pick it up and show us that we didnt need to address QB with our number one overall pick. At this point QB makes more sense than this awesome freak of nature talent.
See but this means you'd be drafting with your #1 overall purely on the basis of need. There has to be some balance of supply & demand, or you are going to end up with inferior personnel all the way around your depth chart.
Just look at last years Draft. Despite being a relatively "low-value" position, the league still drafted 2 OG in the top 10 picks of the Draft because they were the best at their position in years, while on the other hand there was only one QB taken in the entire first round and even then not in the top 15 picks.
An edge-rusher like Clowney is at a highly-valued position, but how good are the QBs in this Draft ? Is Manzeil this years Jake Locker and Bridgewater another Blain Gabbert ?
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Old 01-10-2014   #363
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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This of course was thinking Schaub wouldnt completely implode and we would actually get the number one draft pick. Now that we actually have the power to get a player like Clowney, I realize we need a QB more than another freak of nature DE.
If we were to draft Taj Boyd at 2-1, or Aj McCarren at or Zach Mettenberger would that satisfy our QB need? We'd still be able to take Clowney.
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Old 01-10-2014   #364
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Draftniks tend to look at holes/positions.

Good Coaches/scouts tend to look at talent/playmaking ability more than scheme.
True to a degree but when doing the latter, you tend to force the fit into the scheme.

All around player to fit your scheme > 1 trick pony premium talent.

In Clowney's case i think you'd be forcing the fit too much in Crennel's scheme if that's way we wind up going.
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Old 01-10-2014   #365
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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True to a degree but when doing the latter, you tend to force the fit into the scheme.

All around player to fit your scheme > 1 trick pony premium talent.

In Clowney's case i think you'd be forcing the fit too much in Crennel's scheme if that's way we wind up going.
This is exactly how guys like Glenn Dorsey bust. Everyone saw the talent he possessed when he came out, but KC drafted him and employed him as a 3-4 DE which did not suit his skill set at all. It's not that he wasn't talented (he was) but the team saw the talent and took it instead of thinking about where or how he fit with the current construction of the team.
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Old 01-10-2014   #366
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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This is exactly how guys like Glenn Dorsey bust. Everyone saw the talent he possessed when he came out, but KC drafted him and employed him as a 3-4 DE which did not suit his skill set at all. It's not that he wasn't talented (he was) but the team saw the talent and took it instead of thinking about where or how he fit with the current construction of the team.
See but that's azz-backwards because the scheme should accomodate the talent, not vice versa. Even though Wade's defense failed often this past year, he had the right philosophy. He made it work for JJ, as he did for Cushing, and look at the different types of nose-tackles Wades had in his defenses,
which brings me to Dorsey. He was a great 3-tech DT in the SEC at LSU, right ? So what do the Chiefs do when they draft him ? Right, they stick him in a 2-gap defense which was a waste of very expensive talent, as he was a top 5 pick as I recall. Just think what Wade would have done with Dorsey ? I suspect he would have made a much better use of his abilities than KC did.
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Old 01-10-2014   #367
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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If we were to draft Taj Boyd at 2-1, or Aj McCarren at or Zach Mettenberger would that satisfy our QB need? We'd still be able to take Clowney.
Before Schaub's meltdown, my dream was to make some moves and get Taj Boyd at the top of the 2nd.

I still would not hate Boyd but it's taking more of a risk at the QB position and is that something we really want to do.
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Old 01-10-2014   #368
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
See but that's azz-backwards because the scheme should accomodate the talent, not vice versa. Even though Wade's defense failed often this past year, he had the right philosophy. He made it work for JJ, as he did for Cushing, and look at the different types of nose-tackles Wades had in his defenses,
which brings me to Dorsey. He was a great 3-tech DT in the SEC at LSU, right ? So what do the Chiefs do when they draft him ? Right, they stick him in a 2-gap defense which was a waste of very expensive talent, as he was a top 5 pick as I recall. Just think what Wade would have done with Dorsey ? I suspect he would have made a much better use of his abilities than KC did.
I don't think that's so cut-and-dry.

Some coaches have a scheme and don't have much budge. And they can make that work but they have to get the right players.

Some coaches have a scheme but do have some budge. They try to conform and morph to make do with whatever they've got.

Either one is OK and it changes how you draft. When a team is putting together their draft board, they're taking this into consideration and they're cutting players off their board left and right. So when they choose BPA, it's a totally dependent on what they do and the types of players they're looking for.
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Old 01-10-2014   #369
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Before Schaub's meltdown, my dream was to make some moves and get Taj Boyd at the top of the 2nd.

I still would not hate Boyd but it's taking more of a risk at the QB position and is that something we really want to do.
I think that's what you do, unless you're sold that Bortles/Bridgewater is that guy.

Don't use that 1-1 on the guy you think has the best chance just because he was the only one lucky enough to play in a pro system. Accumulate talent. Accumulate draft picks. Continue to take chances on 6th, 7th, & undrafted guys.... take a guy in the 3rd round if he excites you. But the most important thing is to accumulate picks so that you have the freedom/ability to move up in the draft including the 1st round if the guy you love shows up.

If I'm Kansas City, I'm following the same plan. Alex Smith is a starter in this league, he can win some games & help them be successful, but he's no more likely to win a Super Bowl than Schaub was. If they were in love with Bortles & felt they had to move up to 5 to get him, they'll have to give up their whole draft to get him... & that might be ok for them & their roster. But it would be much better if they had 2 first this year. They could trade the two firsts & next years to get their QB, & still have 6 picks in this draft.

I'm not in love with any of the QBs in this draft. The Texans might be. If they pick Bridgewater, I'm not going to be happy about it, but you know me. I'll be pumping the sunshine & predicting a 19-0 season.

Unless he weighs in under 210 lbs.
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Old 01-10-2014   #370
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
See but that's azz-backwards because the scheme should accomodate the talent, not vice versa. Even though Wade's defense failed often this past year, he had the right philosophy. He made it work for JJ, as he did for Cushing, and look at the different types of nose-tackles Wades had in his defenses,
which brings me to Dorsey. He was a great 3-tech DT in the SEC at LSU, right ? So what do the Chiefs do when they draft him ? Right, they stick him in a 2-gap defense which was a waste of very expensive talent, as he was a top 5 pick as I recall. Just think what Wade would have done with Dorsey ? I suspect he would have made a much better use of his abilities than KC did.
.

Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.

-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.

-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.

-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.

it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.


The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.

Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...

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Old 01-10-2014   #371
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
.

Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.

-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.

-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.

-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.

it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.


The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.

Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...

Well said.
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Old 01-10-2014   #372
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
.

Watt & Clowney aren't the same situation...not even close imo.

-We picked Watt knowing what we were going to run..Clowney, not so much.

-Watt's best attribute was his motor..in stark contrast with Clowney's motivational issues.

-Watt was also universally thought to be a 3-4 guy. I don't think people have a real handle on what Clowney will be except a guy who can rush the passer.

it's also much easier for a traditional 3-4 D-lineman type to find a spot and/or conform & be productive on a 4-3 defense than it is the other way around.


The point here is that great players will succeed in any scheme & we certainly don't know if Clowney is/will be a great player or not..especially if he's put into a 3-4 scheme that in all liklihood isn't going to accentuate his best attributes.

Oh.. I'm pretty sure Wade didn't make anything work for JJ... JJ just made it work for JJ by being a straight up beast...

When I said Wade made it work for JJ, don't get all defensive like I'm saying JJ wouldn't be the player he is without Wade, because I'm saying any such thing. But he did put him in a defensive scheme where he played in the gap and also moved around where he was inside, then on the edge. It maximized JJs opportunities to utilize his tremendous skills. Believe me, if Crennel comes in here and puts JJ in a traditional 2-gap 3-4 then he won't be near as productive as he's been up to now.
Far as Clowney goes, tremendous talent like JJ but it's up to whoever his NFL DC is to fully utilize his talents, unless they would rather draft a lesser talent just because he's more compatible. Atleast that's my take on it.
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Old 01-10-2014   #373
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I the scheme vs player thing in regards to dorsey. He was drafted by herm edwards who we know is a 1 gap guy. They viewed him as a 3 tech. Herm got fired,pioli comes in and now they're a 3-4 and dorsey is stuck playing 5 tech. Guess what? He signed with 49ers, a 3-4 team. A lot of players can play a 3 tech or t tech.
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Old 01-11-2014   #374
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Before the 2013 season I was talking to my little brother telling him how lucky we would be if we could by some miracle end up with him. This of course was thinking Schaub wouldnt completely implode and we would actually get the number one draft pick. Now that we actually have the power to get a player like Clowney, I realize we need a QB more than another freak of nature DE. Two JJ Watt's would not have saved this past season. I was also hoping Keenum would be the answer to our QB problems and when we were fighting for the number one spot I hoped that he would pick it up and show us that we didnt need to address QB with our number one overall pick. At this point QB makes more sense than this awesome freak of nature talent.
2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
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Old 01-11-2014   #375
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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See but this means you'd be drafting with your #1 overall purely on the basis of need. There has to be some balance of supply & demand, or you are going to end up with inferior personnel all the way around your depth chart.
Just look at last years Draft. Despite being a relatively "low-value" position, the league still drafted 2 OG in the top 10 picks of the Draft because they were the best at their position in years, while on the other hand there was only one QB taken in the entire first round and even then not in the top 15 picks.
An edge-rusher like Clowney is at a highly-valued position, but how good are the QBs in this Draft ? Is Manzeil this years Jake Locker and Bridgewater another Blain Gabbert ?
It could go the same for Clowney, will he be another Merry O Williams or a Julius Peppers?. If he had gon lights out this season too, no one would even be talking about the other players in the draft. But now, even me who would not mind one bit seeing Clowney in a Texans jersey, wonders if Clowney will take plays off for us.

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If we were to draft Taj Boyd at 2-1, or Aj McCarren at or Zach Mettenberger would that satisfy our QB need? We'd still be able to take Clowney.
I think with the talent we have on offense we could be a good offense with Boyd. Boyd had a quieter year this year but we can't deny his talent.

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2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
I've seen plenty of Bridgewater to know we won't be reaching. Any other QB I will agree with you.
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Old 01-11-2014   #376
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
We all agree with this sentiment. It all boils down to whether O'Brien and Smith see Teddy or any other QB as a franchise guy. If they do, we go QB. If not, we go Clowney/Barr or whoever they have slated as BPA.
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Old 01-11-2014   #377
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
Of course you only take a QB if you think he is worthy of the pick. That doesnt mean he has to be the best player, but rather he has to have the most value for your team. So you might think Clowney is he better player, but Bridgewater will help you Build a better team.

I wouldn't call it settling if you pick a player that doesnt seem to be on Mannings or Lucks Level coming out of college. You need a good QB to win a superbowl and those are hard to come by - and if you think you can get one in this draft you take him.
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Old 01-11-2014   #378
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
Give me a trade back to #4 with Cleveland (4 , 26 , 68 & next years #1)... they take Bridgewater , Rams take one of Clowney or Matthews , Jax takes Bortles .... we get Manziel and a bounty of picks this year & next.


4 Johnny Manziel
25 Jace Amaro
33 Trent Murphy.
65 JaWuan James or Morgan Moses
68 Shane Skov
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Old 01-11-2014   #379
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
Give me a trade back to #4 with Cleveland (4 , 26 , 68 & next years #1)... they take Bridgewater , Rams take one of Clowney or Matthews , Jax takes Bortles .... we get Manziel and a bounty of picks this year & next.


4 Johnny Manziel
25 Jace Amaro
33 Trent Murphy.
65 JaWuan James or Morgan Moses
68 Shane Skov
No way Cleveland gives up that much for the first overall. I think expecting their 4 and the Colts pick is reasonable, but adding in their #68 an their 2015 1st rounder is expecting way too much in my opinion. Although I do like your first three picks, Manziel-Amaro-Murhpy
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Old 01-11-2014   #380
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
2 JJ Watt's may not be the answer. But reaching for a QB because you need one is the reciepe for yrs of more of the same/failure.
Given that everyone and their dog expects 2-3 QBs to be taken in the top 5 and 3-4 in the top 10, taking any of them isn't a reach to me.
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