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Old 04-25-2014   #2721
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Sorry but no way in hell is Shazier in this conversation.
ok maybe got carried away with listing prospects. but his a round 1 talent player, just not top 10
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Old 04-26-2014   #2722
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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So the fact that I can point to Watt do the same thing doesn't mean anything because it doesn't fit with your prejudices?
Or vice versa.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2723
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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The play at "around 1:40" is actually the play BEFORE the one you showed. He's initially doubled, sees the play going the other way, slows down, and then the running back hits him a second time.

To your first comment, I'm not drafting #70 or #99 with the #1 overall pick.

The point is that you are saying he is loafing when it's clear that TWO OTHER DL team mates are seeing exactly what he is seeing and reacting EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. He is doing what 99.9 % of all players in his position would of done.

To the second, if you watch a little further, they show a replay where you can watch Clowney better. To my eye, he could have pursued more and harder.

You mean this play?



you do see where after he disengages from the blocker that he has to jump over some players on the ground? By the time he lands on his feet the RB is 10 to 15 yards down the field.


If it was just one or two plays here or there -- especially at the end of the game -- I'd agree with you. But the fact is that it isn't. He could have shown more want-to on a lot of plays. If it were just he could have tried a little harder on this play or that play, that would be fine.

I understand where you are coming from but I just don't see it in the plays you have pointed out. In these plays he's not doing anything that almost every other defensive players do in these situations.

And that's why when you talk about high-motor guys, you don't talk about Jadeveon Clowney, that's why so many people are down on him because of his motor. High-motor guys pursue harder, try harder, work harder. That's not saying that high-motor guys don't have some plays where they couldn't have tried harder but most of the time, high-motor guys are chasing after the ball and continuing to play hard until the whistle blows.

What you are talking about is VERY RARE!!!! Honestly, what percentage of NFL players actually play the way you're suggesting? This whole idea that Clowney is lazy and takes plays off is WAY OVER BLOWN!!!!!!! Does he do it occasionally, off course he does. OCCASIONALLY!!!!! The number of times he does it and when he does it isn't any different than what the vast majority does.

Look he and Manziel were the most scrutinized players in all of football last year. Both have been under a microscope so much that every little detail about them has been sensationalized and exaggerated because their past success made them such hot topics. It's all about clicks and views.

With Manzeil the big news story was his off field behavior. When is the last time you seen a player so ridiculed who didn't really do anything bad? You can turn on sports radio anytime and hear caller after caller go off on how he is a piece of crap spoiled rotten entitled turd. Really, what did he do to deserve that reputation? Regardless a lot of people now hate Manziel because of all his “off field discrepancies”.

In the aftermath of all that Manziel couldn’t do any right. Even though he was having a better year than the year before when he won the Heisman, he was criticized about everything he did even when it had positive results. He threw up 4 or 5 ill advised passes throughout the entire season and all you hear is “all he does is throw it up for grabs”. He scrambles and makes big plays and all you hear is “if you take away his scrambling he has nothing”. That’s despite the fact that he showed improvement in the pocket from the previous season and was as good from the pocket numbers wise as any of the other top QB prospects.

Now back to Clowney. With Clowney it was no different. Despite the fact that he had been a dominating defensive player since the first time he ever stepped on a football field, he was having a down year stats wise so there had to be a reason. Couldn’t be a series of simple things combined with the fact that teams game planned against him at a level that is rarely seen. Nope he’s loafer and take plays off. His motor doesn’t rev high enough. Yeh he got the reputation as a once in a generation talent by loafing around and taking plays off. Riiiight!!!!!

Is either of them perfect? NO~!! But the majority of criticism they both receive is a product of their popularity. They are the most talked about and polarizings players in all of college football. Anytime a player is in the headlines as much as these guys they are going to be over analyzed and unfairly critiqued.

Both players need to improve their skillets. Go back and look through every draft and tell me how many prospects were perfect. I can only think of one and I have been keeping up with the draft for a very long time. Manziel needs to improve his pocket awareness, stop (occasionally) throwing up jump balls and understand that his health is more important than any one play. Clowney needs to develop his pass rush moves. As of now he has a bull rush and an arm over move and that’s about it. Up to this point that is all he has needed.

I don’t think either is a sure thing but I sure don’t think either is as big a risk as the popular opinion either. Both of them have incredible talent and in the right situation will be very good players IMO. I would love to have either one of them on our team.

All this is JMO.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2724
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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What you are talking about is VERY RARE!!!! Honestly, what percentage of NFL players actually play the way you're suggesting? This whole idea that Clowney is lazy and takes plays off is WAY OVER BLOWN!!!!!!! Does he do it occasionally, off course he does. OCCASIONALLY!!!!! The number of times he does it and when he does it isn't any different than what the vast majority does.
That statement right there is my problem.

I'm not saying that other players don't do what he does. I'm not even saying that JJ Watt doesn't do it on occasion.

What I'm saying is that what separates a guy with a high mother from a guy with a normal motor from a guy with a low motor is the number of times that they do it.

As you say -- EXACTLY as you say -- Clowney is doing exactly what the vast majority of players do: he doesn't hustle as much as I'd like. I pointed out some plays where he could have hustled and done something different and better than what he did. It's not any individual play that's the problem; it's the number of them that's the problem.

Also, I'm not saying that Clowney isn't 1-1 material. I'm not saying we shouldn't draft him. I'm saying that his motor is a concern. I'm not saying that because I heard a bunch of guys on ESPN/NFLN say it; I'm saying it because I've looked at several of his games and I see a pattern of not being a high motor guy. For me, that's a concern.

When I first saw his play and heard about all talk going around about him, about his work ethic, about coming into the season out of shape, about him sitting out games and having his coach call him out to get him motivated, I had him totally off my board at 1-1. BUT. As the draft process has gone on and I've seen more and looked at other things and thought about it and heard other opinions, I've changed. I'm fine with him at 1-1 now.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not concerned about his motor giving him a chance to bust. I haven't spoken to this guy and even if I had, I can't look into his heart and understand his motivations. I've seen very talented guys like him bust because of that lack of motor and work-ethic.

So I think I'm justified in being worried.

That's just my opinion on this.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2725
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
That statement right there is my problem.

I'm not saying that other players don't do what he does. I'm not even saying that JJ Watt doesn't do it on occasion.

What I'm saying is that what separates a guy with a high mother from a guy with a normal motor from a guy with a low motor is the number of times that they do it.

As you say -- EXACTLY as you say -- Clowney is doing exactly what the vast majority of players do: he doesn't hustle as much as I'd like. I pointed out some plays where he could have hustled and done something different and better than what he did. It's not any individual play that's the problem; it's the number of them that's the problem.

Also, I'm not saying that Clowney isn't 1-1 material. I'm not saying we shouldn't draft him. I'm saying that his motor is a concern. I'm not saying that because I heard a bunch of guys on ESPN/NFLN say it; I'm saying it because I've looked at several of his games and I see a pattern of not being a high motor guy. For me, that's a concern.

When I first saw his play and heard about all talk going around about him, about his work ethic, about coming into the season out of shape, about him sitting out games and having his coach call him out to get him motivated, I had him totally off my board at 1-1. BUT. As the draft process has gone on and I've seen more and looked at other things and thought about it and heard other opinions, I've changed. I'm fine with him at 1-1 now.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not concerned about his motor giving him a chance to bust. I haven't spoken to this guy and even if I had, I can't look into his heart and understand his motivations. I've seen very talented guys like him bust because of that lack of motor and work-ethic.

So I think I'm justified in being worried.

That's just my opinion on this.
Nice back and forth thanks. MSR.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2726
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Nice back and forth thanks. MSR.
Yep. This has been good.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2727
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Or vice versa.
Nothing you've shown me tells me that Clowney is somehow doing anything differently, nor have you shown me that your idealized version of play is actually what occurs in the NFL. You've also conspicuously dropped your point about production and haven't addressed evidence of Clowney getting extra attention as a result, and now only point to Clowney slowing down as a tackle is made or (as Mussop points out) plays where Clowney doesn't immediately make it to the backfield...aside from times where he's done that all year and throughout his college career?

Don't talk about prejudices and then make no attempt to self-examine, Neck. Yeesh.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2728
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Nothing you've shown me tells me that Clowney is somehow doing anything differently, nor have you shown me that your idealized version of play is actually what occurs in the NFL. You've also conspicuously dropped your point about production and haven't addressed evidence of Clowney getting extra attention as a result, and now only point to Clowney slowing down as a tackle is made or (as Mussop points out) plays where Clowney doesn't immediately make it to the backfield...aside from times where he's done that all year and throughout his college career?

Don't talk about prejudices and then make no attempt to self-examine, Neck. Yeesh.
Agreed... Here is what I would like explained to me by all the Clowney fans:

Didn't dominant college players prior to Clowney require the attention of double/triple teams? Why were they able to still produce results, despite the attention and Clowney was not able to in 2013?- Players that physically gifted are able to overcome the attention in college because of the disparity of talent. I have never seen a player with so little production being so highly regarded by fans and media draftniks. What explains the 3 sacks? It simply can't be that he was schemed against more than any other player in college football history.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2729
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Agreed... Here is what I would like explained to me by all the Clowney fans:

Didn't dominant college players prior to Clowney require the attention of double/triple teams? Why were they able to still produce results, despite the attention and Clowney was not able to in 2013?- Players that physically gifted are able to overcome the attention in college because of the disparity of talent. I have never seen a player with so little production being so highly regarded by fans and media draftniks. What explains the 3 sacks? It simply can't be that he was schemed against more than any other player in college football history.
Not a Clowney fan, but does the "his production dropped because he was playing to not get hurt" line have any traction? It has some merit on the face of it. He's going to be drafted very high in the 1st round unless he blows out a knee or has some other disasterous injury. Why go all out and risk it?
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Old 04-26-2014   #2730
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Not a Clowney fan, but does the "his production dropped because he was playing to not get hurt" line have any traction? It has some merit on the face of it. He's going to be drafted very high in the 1st round unless he blows out a knee or has some other disasterous injury. Why go all out and risk it?

I can't imagine that someone who loves the game would play without max effort.

It's really incomprehensible to me. Don't all Always try to be their best each and every play? I mean even when playing marbles, didn't you always try to win? I never knew anyone that went into a game of monopoly with the goal to lose.

I'm thinking if you have a competitive nature at all then the game time fire takes over.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2731
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I can't imagine that someone who loves the game would play without max effort.

It's really incomprehensible to me. Don't all Always try to be their best each and every play? I mean even when playing marbles, didn't you always try to win? I never knew anyone that went into a game of monopoly with the goal to lose.

I'm thinking if you have a competitive nature at all then the game time fire takes over.
How many times has a blown ACL in a game of marbles or monoply happened, and if it did happen, the injury cost millions of dollars in potential earnings?

Mettenberger and Murray would likely be ranked much higher than they are, but they're coming off of....ACL surgery.

I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just saying that there's potential there.
I'm not a Clowney fan and would much rather trade out of 1.1 than pick any player in this draft.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2732
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Not a Clowney fan, but does the "his production dropped because he was playing to not get hurt" line have any traction? It has some merit on the face of it. He's going to be drafted very high in the 1st round unless he blows out a knee or has some other disasterous injury. Why go all out and risk it?
Or maybe college teams realize to just set for the speed rush because he has nothing else. As I've stated,he's not a good pass rusher. People think he can be he one because of size and speed. They also thought the same about manny lawson.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2733
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Nothing you've shown me tells me that Clowney is somehow doing anything differently, nor have you shown me that your idealized version of play is actually what occurs in the NFL. You've also conspicuously dropped your point about production and haven't addressed evidence of Clowney getting extra attention as a result, and now only point to Clowney slowing down as a tackle is made or (as Mussop points out) plays where Clowney doesn't immediately make it to the backfield...aside from times where he's done that all year and throughout his college career?

Don't talk about prejudices and then make no attempt to self-examine, Neck. Yeesh.
What I'm saying is that you need to do the same thing.

If you have read my posts, then you should know WHY I'm not harping on the point about production any longer. I've mentioned it several times -- self-examination. Go back and check it out.

You, on the other hand, have latched on to the 25% vs. 12% special attention as though that supports your earlier assertions that he was getting double-teamed on almost every play and more than any college player in the history of the universe. Which. It doesn't.

You are consistently mis-characterizing my stance on the plays where I think Clowney could have showed more hustle while providing evidence -- JJ Watt's play in college -- that doesn't show me what you say it does. If you can't see the differences between high-motor play and average-to-low motor play, then I don't know what to tell you. If you're happy with play like MOST people exhibit where they just stand around or kinda jog after the play, if you're happy with that out of a 1-1 physical freak, if that doesn't concern you, then I don't know what to tell you.

As far as I'm concerned, this is at an agree-to-disagree impasse.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2734
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Or maybe college teams realize to just set for the speed rush because he has nothing else. As I've stated,he's not a good pass rusher. People think he can be he one because of size and speed. They also thought the same about manny lawson.
There are some who believed attention paid to Mario helped Manny Lawson produce. When teams started paying attention to Lawson, Mario was able to get his.

When teams started game-planning for Clowney, who started to produce?
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Old 04-26-2014   #2735
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Not a Clowney fan, but does the "his production dropped because he was playing to not get hurt" line have any traction? It has some merit on the face of it. He's going to be drafted very high in the 1st round unless he blows out a knee or has some other disasterous injury. Why go all out and risk it?
No doubt that should not be disregarded as a factor. But also there is no doubt that he played hurt last season. His bone spur affect on his performance has been documented repeated by Clowney, his coach and his teammates. Evidently, most people don't understand the implications of having painful bone spurs. There was a reason that Duane Brown opted to have a single bone spur addressed prior to last season.

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Former South Carolina quarterback Connor Shaw said he believes Clowney was fighting an uphill battle against perception all last season

“I’ve been there. I’ve watched his work ethic over the summer. Jadeveon Clowney was in a lose-lose situation last year with the media and all the critics,” Shaw said, in an interview with Alex Marvez and Gil Brandt on Sirius XM NFL Radio. “The guy is an animal on and off the field. His work ethic in the weight room, I’ve seen it first hand and if you ask any of his teammates from South Carolina they’ll say the same thing.

“I think he will be a better NFL player than he was a college player. He absolutely wants to be the best. He’s very competitive and when he gets to that next level, he’ll step up to the stage.”

Clowney entered last season as the presumed top selection in this year’s draft. He wasn’t sneaking up on anyone after a dominant sophomore season at South Carolina. Shaw said opposing teams understandably made it a focal point to take Clowney out of the game.

“He had such a monster year his sophomore year that people just expected that the next year,” Shaw said. “Well, all of a sudden you have a tight end on him, a running back on him, your left tackle. He’s getting triple-teamed almost every down. It’s hard. People run away from him.

“He plays banged up. He tried to not let that leak out but he was hurt some of the season playing through injuries.”
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Old 04-26-2014   #2736
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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There are some who believed attention paid to Mario helped Manny Lawson produce. When teams started paying attention to Lawson, Mario was able to get his.

When teams started game-planning for Clowney, who started to produce?
Quarels. Look at his stats the last two years.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2737
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Or maybe college teams realize to just set for the speed rush because he has nothing else. As I've stated,he's not a good pass rusher. People think he can be he one because of size and speed. They also thought the same about manny lawson.
If you don't see the difference between Lawson and Clowney there is no hope for you.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2738
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Quarels. Look at his stats the last two years.




couldn't find any.
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Old 04-26-2014   #2739
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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who else would be left at 6?
Matthews/Bridgewater/Nix etc....
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Old 04-26-2014   #2740
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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to move to 6 id say we should get at least next years 1 and a 2nd this year. or id do 6 and a 2nd and a 3rd this year.
Otherwise, id keep clowney.
I believe the deal they're looking at is a 2014 1st/2nd/4th or 5th plus a 2015 1st from the Falcons.
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