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Old 04-25-2014   #2701
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollywhopper View Post
Cam signed for number 1 slot money, from where he was picked. Aldon for number 7. No big deal.

Cam wouldn't have wanted to settle for number 7 money if he had been traded to San Fran after having been picked first overall, though. But San Fran would have been married to number 7 slot money for him if they had already picked out of that slot.

Hence, making the money work is the problem if you're to make the trade after you make the pick.
Can you please provide any CBA sections providing the restrictions you are discussing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
And BTW, if anybody doubts who's the most highly valued prospect in this Draft, well I challenge you to step up and show any trade scenario with the Texans for their 1.1 that's being discussed that doesn't involve a team interested in landing Clowney.
Put your pom-poms down for a second and you will see other scenarios with the most discussed one being the Browns moving up for a QB - specifically Manziel. Yes Clowney is by far the most discussed target but he is not the only one.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2702
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Bottom line for me on Clowney is

1. Is he willing to have the bone spur surgery directly after the draft.
As soon as he & his agents decided he would not be doing any more workouts, he should have been on the prep table, under the knife.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2703
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thetexanator View Post
breaking news.
my sources indicate that clowney is having another workout session with the atlanta falcons. this all but cements my prediction that falcons and texans will swap picks.
Who are your sources, ESPN and the nfl network? They have both been taking about this for days.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2704
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
It's fine if that's what you believe (not being a high-motor'd as Watt doesn't make you have a low motor, and there are plenty of examples of Clowney 'making plays' with motor - not sure if there's a difference), but you shouldn't use examples of Clowney slowing down when he sees another teammate making a tackle as him having a 'low motor' when you see Watt doing the same thing in college.
Well said. Especially when the play is half way a cross the field.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2705
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Can you please provide any CBA sections providing the restrictions you are discussing?
Phil Savage ‏@SeniorBowlPhil
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NYG did it in '04 w/ Eli thru one-time bonus based on 35% playtime in YR1, that feature not part of current CBA.

Before selection, slots are traded. After selection, teams are married to slot. Tough to fit Clowney into #6 pool.

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
...you will see other scenarios with the most discussed one being the Browns moving up for a QB - specifically Manziel. Yes Clowney is by far the most discussed target but he is not the only one.
I think the only people floating those rumors are in Houston. I'm not seeing the need for Cleveland to move up for Manziel. Watkins, maybe...?
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Why Texans want to stay Top 5 RT @AlbertBreer: Have heard consistently there's a 4-player top tier -- Clowney, Watkins, Robinson, Mack
Daniel Jeremiah ‏@MoveTheSticks
Quote:
Talking with personnel guys, they all have the same names in their top 5: Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Robinson & Matthews. Order 1-5 varies
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Old 04-25-2014   #2706
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Can you please provide any CBA sections providing the restrictions you are discussing?
Article 7
section 3, part (j)

This area gives the parameters. Basically saying that each team has their amount of money to use for each pick and for the total of the draft and that's that. The sections before it speak on the rookie wage limitation's inherent to each pick.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2707
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
It's fine if that's what you believe (not being a high-motor'd as Watt doesn't make you have a low motor, and there are plenty of examples of Clowney 'making plays' with motor - not sure if there's a difference), but you shouldn't use examples of Clowney slowing down when he sees another teammate making a tackle as him having a 'low motor' when you see Watt doing the same thing in college.
I don't understand what our communication breakdown is.

Showing me one play of Watt playing with a low motor or one play of Clowney playing with a high motor doesn't make Watt a low motor guy ro Clowney a high motor guy. Watt is a high motor guy because on most plays, he keeps playing until the whistle. What makes Clowney a low motor guy is because on most plays, he doesn't. What makes you one or the other is about an accumulation of plays not what you did on a single play.

And I'm not talking about plays where Clowney slows down because he thinks the guy was already tackled.

I don't really understand the mentality where you have to present the player you like as being pristine and having no warts and being an absolutely perfect player while all the other players who could be rivals for his spot being crap. All players have warts, none of them are perfect.

Clowney has warts. He has all the physical gifts in the world, but he didn't have great production on the field this past season. He can make plays and dominate a game, but he can also disappear. He has plays where he's unstoppable, and then he has plays where he stops himself.

If we take him 1-1, I'll be fine with that. But I will be worried that he's going to be a complete wash-out because I don't know how much or how hard he wants to play. That's just my opinion and I know that you don't share it and there's no way to convince you of it. And because of my concerns and your lack of them, we're each going to look at the same play and see totally different things.

You asked for plays that worried me, I gave them to you. They don't worry you. Fine. They still worry me.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2708
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Can you please provide any CBA sections providing the restrictions you are discussing?



Put your pom-poms down for a second and you will see other scenarios with the most discussed one being the Browns moving up for a QB - specifically Manziel. Yes Clowney is by far the most discussed target but he is not the only one.
Right, moving up from 26 to get him in the low twenties or maybe somewhere in teens. No, I'm talking about doing business with the Texans for their 1.1. So I say again, I see no such talk about any team moving all the way up to bid for any prospect not named Clowney.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2709
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I don't understand what our communication breakdown is.

Showing me one play of Watt playing with a low motor or one play of Clowney playing with a high motor doesn't make Watt a low motor guy ro Clowney a high motor guy. Watt is a high motor guy because on most plays, he keeps playing until the whistle. What makes Clowney a low motor guy is because on most plays, he doesn't. What makes you one or the other is about an accumulation of plays not what you did on a single play.
I'm not talking about singular plays; it's why I linked you a whole video. I'm saying that I think people are coming into any evaluation of Clowney with biases that A) He is 'low effort' or has a poor motor and that B) Watt (or some idealized version in one's head) is 100% on every single snap. My point in providing that video is proof that B) isn't true, and A) is questionable considering B).

Quote:
And I'm not talking about plays where Clowney slows down because he thinks the guy was already tackled.
Well then you'll have to distinguish them; are you talking about obvious pass-rush snaps vs. running play snaps, is Clowney allowed to run at the QB or is he being asked to set the edge, etc.

I don't really understand the mentality where you have to present the player you like as being pristine and having no warts and being an absolutely perfect player while all the other players who could be rivals for his spot being crap. All players have warts, none of them are perfect.[/quote]

Where am I saying Clowney is some pristine player? You can evaluate another's own take while evaluating a player objectively. I don't see what Clowney is doing as much different from guys like Watt (though Watt is called high-motor for a reason); diving into piles can get you injured or even flagged, along with my point about getting gassed - being in shape or otherwise.

Quote:
Clowney has warts. He has all the physical gifts in the world, but he didn't have great production on the field this past season. He can make plays and dominate a game, but he can also disappear. He has plays where he's unstoppable, and then he has plays where he stops himself.
He didn't have great production because he often got nearly twice as much attention from offenses than his peers, or rarely ran plays in his direction. This is no different than what the Rams did to Watt last season: they limited in their game plans as much as possible. That's why you see teammates of Clowney like Kelcy Quarles go from 3.5 sacks as a 4-3 DT to nearly 10 in the span of a year while Clowney dropped off. Using statistical production sorely to judge Clowney is missing the point entirely.

[quote]If we take him 1-1, I'll be fine with that. But I will be worried that he's going to be a complete wash-out because I don't know how much or how hard he wants to play. That's just my opinion and I know that you don't share it and there's no way to convince you of it. And because of my concerns and your lack of them, we're each going to look at the same play and see totally different things.

Quote:
You asked for plays that worried me, I gave them to you. They don't worry you. Fine. They still worry me.
If nothing else, Clowney is the best talent in the draft, and considering whom his teachers and teammates will be (and the legacy of Willie McGinest, if nothing else), I think Houston is the best-possible place for him to develop. Sending him to Atlanta where he would basically be the only real pass rushing threat would make those warts of him even worse - assuming them to be true and not a product of offensive scheming as I point out above.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2710
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
I'm not talking about singular plays; it's why I linked you a whole video. I'm saying that I think people are coming into any evaluation of Clowney with biases that A) He is 'low effort' or has a poor motor and that B) Watt (or some idealized version in one's head) is 100% on every single snap. My point in providing that video is proof that B) isn't true, and A) is questionable considering B).
I don't see how you can watch that video of JJ Watt and that video of Jadeveon Clowney and not see an entirely different level of effort.

There's just nothing more to say after that.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2711
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I don't see how you can watch that video of JJ Watt and that video of Jadeveon Clowney and not see an entirely different level of effort.

There's just nothing more to say after that.
Like the second play of the Michigan State game where Watt slows down after seeing the linebacker make the tackle? Or were we talking about Clowney? :p

EDIT: Not to mention Michigan State isn't pulling near-constant quick passing like UNC. There is a large difference of effort between the videos, as you say, but I think it's more to do with how much attention they put on Watt vs Clowney.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2712
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Like the second play of the Michigan State game where Watt slows down after seeing the linebacker make the tackle? Or were we talking about Clowney? :p
No.

Clowney slows down as soon as the play is going away from him and before anyone makes a tackle, before anyone even comes close to making a tackle. And when he goes to the ground, he doesn't get back up and run after the play like Watt does. On one play, he gets up and talks to the tackle who blocked him to the ground instead of chasing after the RB the QB flipped the ball to.

Quote:
EDIT: Not to mention Michigan State isn't pulling near-constant quick passing like UNC. There is a large difference of effort between the videos, as you say, but I think it's more to do with how much attention they put on Watt vs Clowney.
I don't.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2713
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Who are your sources, ESPN and the nfl network? They have both been taking about this for days.
sorry, but a good insider should NEVER reveal his sources.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2714
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thetexanator View Post
sorry, but a good insider should NEVER reveal his sources.
I'm not sure reading an ESPN article is "insider" information.

Clowney to visit with Falcons again; LINK

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Updated: April 25, 2014, 9:22 AM ET
...
CBS Sports earlier reported Clowney's scheduled session with the Falcons on Friday.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2715
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I'm not sure reading an ESPN article is "insider" information.

Clowney to visit with Falcons again; LINK
if mcclain can do it, and all the radio guys can do it, so can i.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2716
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Trade down, probably end up with Matthews/Mack, and then use the extra ammo to jump back in the first for Bortles. That's probably their #1 plan.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2717
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thetexanator View Post
who else would be left at 6?
Matthews!
I have my stud RT AND extra picks to fill more holes.
win
win
win
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Old 04-25-2014   #2718
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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who else would be left at 6?
all 3 of the "top" QBs, Matthews, Evans, Donald, Lewan, Barr, Shazier
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Old 04-25-2014   #2719
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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all 3 of the "top" QBs, Matthews, Evans, Donald, Lewan, Barr, Shazier
Sorry but no way in hell is Shazier in this conversation.
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Old 04-25-2014   #2720
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
No.

Clowney slows down as soon as the play is going away from him and before anyone makes a tackle, before anyone even comes close to making a tackle. And when he goes to the ground, he doesn't get back up and run after the play like Watt does. On one play, he gets up and talks to the tackle who blocked him to the ground instead of chasing after the RB the QB flipped the ball to.
So the fact that I can point to Watt do the same thing doesn't mean anything because it doesn't fit with your prejudices?

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I don't.
Well alright I guess.
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