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Old 04-24-2014   #2621
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?
Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2622
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Clowney has a ton of motivational question marks the same way that Russell did coming into the draft as far as his character concerns...
Jamarcus was addicted to codeine and promethazine... Clowney doesn't even drink. He did drive over the speed limit, though, so there's that.

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
.Clowney was rumored to run around with an entourage all season long...
All feedback from teams who actually met and spent time with the kid are positive, very likeable, other prospects like him.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...32#post2305132
Quote:
We reached out to sources with teams across the league to get their feedback on how Clowney did in the team meetings. Unanimously, they all said he did well, and they were impressed with how he addressed their concerns.

Two teams that are picking in the top five told WalterFootball.com that they are good with Clowney as a person/teammate, and they are not concerned about his work ethic or drive. They both said he did very well in the interview and eased any doubts that they had.

Another team picking in the teens that would consider moving up for Clowney if he slides in the top 10 said Clowney did very well. One playoff team said they didn't take the time to interview Clowney because they don't have any shot at landing him, but they asked friends they trust who did interview him, and they said they heard that Clowney did very well in those team meetings...

An AFC team we reached out to got back to us this morning. They agreed with the consensus: "Clowney did very well. No issues with his interview."

So ding him for his down year, but Clowney is not some bad kid. His personality is the polar opposite of someone like Mario, who was dark and even suicidal.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2623
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.
Yup. Overall they do know more than fans and pundits but the draft is more art than science and even the experts take gambles especially where the "potential" payoff is huge. Like all gambles they don't always pay out. Hardly anyone is denying Clowney's potential. They are really saying they won't take the gamble on him.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2624
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Could you point me in the direction of one of these plays.
Way earlier in the thread (the link is here: post 597), I broke down a whole game showing the plays where I thought he was pulling up and not trying. IIRC, I had a link to the video I was looking at AND the time to go to for the plays I talked about. There were a lot of them.

One play that still sticks with me was a pass play where he didn't even really try. He played patty-cake with the tackle, fell to the ground, and then got up jawing and talking to the official WHILE the play was still going on. And this wasn't some long pass play. IIRC, it was a short dump off where he could have gotten into the action if he'd trailed the play.

That being said, he also had some amazing plays.

That's what's so frustrating.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2625
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

We can dismiss the media and fans, but at the end of the day, professional football teams are looking at this player as a very high draft prospect. I have very little doubt that several teams in the first ten picks will grab him if he is available, so it is not like one team just doesn't get it. And I honestly doubt any of these teams listen to "draft experts" in the media or fan boards/radio shows.

btw, don't blast me, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm looking forward to the draft to finally root for whoever they pick,
Seems to be happening quite a bit around here lately. Not only that dude, but a handful of others too. If your opinion doesn't jive with theirs, by George, they're going to let you know about it.

Nice post btw. Gotta spread the rep
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Old 04-24-2014   #2626
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
JJ Watt only had seven his last year. Lol!
Watt was also used primarily as an interior run stuffer because of his size and the Big Ten being so run-heavy. He wasn't a guy who got to rush from the edge on every play like Clowney.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2627
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

In this thread I have learned that Clowney is the only college football player who has ever witness a teammate suffer a serious injury.

And before you pop off at me too, I like Clowney. I don't necessarily like him as a fit for our defense, but I do think that he is the most physically gifted athlete in this draft.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2628
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Would y'all be ok with it if Clowney alternates between shining and taking a play off, but we have our best season ever and win 85% of our games with a top 10 D? That's what even the haters say he did last year.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2629
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Seeing how easily Blake Bortles was able to avoid any Clowney pressure, one can only imagine the field day Andrew Luck will have against Jadevon.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2630
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Would y'all be ok with it if Clowney alternates between shining and taking a play off, but we have our best season ever and win 85% of our games with a top 10 D? That's what even the haters say he did last year.
SC finished #11 in total D and had an 11-2 record for three straight years.

I haven't met anyone who thinks Clowney alone will make the Texans a top-10 Defense and create 13 wins.

I think its more realistic having him alternate plays to keep fresh until he's ready for a full NFL grind.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2631
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
SC finished #11 in total D and had an 11-2 record for three straight years.

I haven't met anyone who thinks Clowney alone will make the Texans a top-10 Defense and create 13 wins.

I think its more realistic having him alternate plays to keep fresh until he's ready for a full NFL grind.
S. Carolina finished ranked higher than they ever have -- their first time in the top 5. My apologies on the D however. Their D was actually ranked 11th out of 120 (again their highest ever), rather than 10th. Judging by some of the comments here (not you specifically) I suspect there are people on this thread who actually think that Clowney held them back -- that the Gamecocks were that good defensively despite Clowney.

I'm sure they will alternate plays with him. I doubt he plays 100% of the snaps after all, but let's not pretend that he won't be a factor in the game when he's in there.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2632
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
So here's a question for ya', man: NFL teams are seeing the same game tape and one of them will probably make Clowney a top 5 pick, so do you think pro scouts and NFL front offices do not understand what they are seeing?

We can dismiss the media and fans, but at the end of the day, professional football teams are looking at this player as a very high draft prospect. I have very little doubt that several teams in the first ten picks will grab him if he is available, so it is not like one team just doesn't get it. And I honestly doubt any of these teams listen to "draft experts" in the media or fan boards/radio shows.

btw, don't blast me, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm looking forward to the draft to finally root for whoever they pick,
Sorry don't have any documentation or reference here, but the other day on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?
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Old 04-24-2014   #2633
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
In this thread I have learned that Clowney is the only college football player who has ever witness a teammate suffer a serious injury.

And before you pop off at me too, I like Clowney. I don't necessarily like him as a fit for our defense, but I do think that he is the most physically gifted athlete in this draft.
Heh, first, I'm not popping off. How folks are defensive about these guys is beyond me. I can reason in choosing many of those mentioned so don't get into the favoring one over the other as if they are paying my bills.

But with that said I would say that is only part of a view of it. I don't like that Clowney slacked last year. I have a hard time believing he did otherwise. I think it's a crap move and not how the game should be played. Though I feel that way and don't approve it still doesn't stop me from understanding.

It's not just seeing a teammate go down with an injury. It's also the fact that teammate was spoken of to be a solid high draft pick as well. Not that many of those players that were in that pedigree that go down. But you have to add that soon after that someone writes an article at South Carolina that he could sit out the entire season since no matter he will most assured be a high draft pick with no risk of injury which he could lose with such a grievious setback i.e. Lattimore. Not only is this article written but it is then brought up on ESPN and discussed in high detail. So their words and thoughts were live and in color for him with this teammate on how much he could lose.

Guesswork but someone probably got in his ear as well. Agent, family member, whatever and that didn't help his mindset. We're still talking young men here. These guys are not 'generally' built for such life decisions and that is exactly what it is for him at that point. So he may have been influenced without even thinking he was. It still falls on him in the end but I can't act like I don't understand.

He's still a person and a young one. That means he can make poor decisions and choices like any other. Not going to condemn him to all hell and back (you're not but some seem to be) because of poor approach to his final season. It's his dream, his livelyhood, etc., that weighed along with the voices that such get from a hundred directions.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2634
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Jamarcus was addicted to codeine and promethazine... Clowney doesn't even drink. He did drive over the speed limit, though, so there's that.

All feedback from teams who actually met and spent time with the kid are positive, very likeable, other prospects like him.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/sho...32#post2305132



So ding him for his down year, but Clowney is not some bad kid. His personality is the polar opposite of someone like Mario, who was dark and even suicidal.
I shouldn't ding him in a season where he was in the Prime Time games several times and he had average games when he was fighting to be a #1 pick? Please. I will totally ding a guy who doesn't show up in big games. Randy Moss used to be the same way, and that's why I'll always ding him down the list of top NFL receivers ever. I'm sorry, but I kept looking to find this top NFL talent that was supposed to be the best pass rusher in college and every time I watched I never saw it. I saw the same type of Mario Williams player that everyone in Houston raved about when he played here that was never consistent. Watt had a down year statistically last season, but I still felt like he dominated. I still saw Watt all over the field causing havoc. I never saw that with Clowney.

Many of you need to look back on all of the DE busts from the last 10 years. There are a ton of them. These guys can be freakish athletes all they want, but if they don't have that endless motor and freakish desire to dominate all game long, I don't want any part of a player like that. He won't motivate his team and his attitude will rub off on other players. But NFL coaches will always draft freakish DE's very high in the draft. They always do, because they always want to find that next Demarcus Ware. I really wish that Clowney was the next Demarcus Ware, but I see nothing in his attitude on the field to make me believe it after what I saw last season in what was a contract year for him. If a player won't even go all out on his contract year, that is all I need to know about him. He might have a big season or two due to his abilities. I don't doubt that can happen. I don't think he'll be a guy that will dominate the league for 10 years though. And I would never draft a guy in the top 5 if I felt that way about him.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2635
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Sorry don't have any documentation or reference here, but the other day on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?
Everyone always looks at BB as this draft wizard and it's far from being true.

If BB didn't have Brady he'd possibly be a DC somewhere right now. Brady carries his ass every season. He is a great coach, but he us far from being some draft guru other than making fancy trades to get a lot of picks.

BB is the same guy who passed on Dez Bryant that was sitting there at like the 26th pick of the NFL for a lousy player like McCourtney. Had they drafted Bryant, they'd have another SB ring no question.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2636
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I also think it is incredibly silly to give Clowney so much credit for South Carolina's success on defense. He has been a big part but it's not like he is covering up weaknesses for ten terrible guys behind him.

In Clowney's first two years South Carolina had seven defensive players drafted. And they are likely to have three more drafted this year in addition to Clowney. That makes ten players in three years not even counting Clowney. And that's just on defense.

They have been an incredible defense during his three years. But they weren't chopped liver before he got there either, ranking #46, #15, and #14 in the nation in the three years leading up to his arrival.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2637
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
S. Carolina finished ranked higher than they ever have -- their first time in the top 5. My apologies on the D however. Their D was actually ranked 11th out of 120 (again their highest ever), rather than 10th. Judging by some of the comments here (not you specifically) I suspect there are people on this thread who actually think that Clowney held them back -- that the Gamecocks were that good defensively despite Clowney.

I'm sure they will alternate plays with him. I doubt he plays 100% of the snaps after all, but let's not pretend that he won't be a factor in the game when he's in there.
We don't have to pretend. He will be at times. But he wasn't all of the time at the school you keep talking about. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it were so.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2638
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Easy answer, they see the "potential". Same reason teams drafted Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Dewayne Robertson, Mike Mamula, Courtney Brown, Derrick Harvey, Mike Williams, Vernon Gholston and on and on and on.
I get the potential angle and I set it up as an easy-to-answer question.

You have the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 vision with your examples. If only teams had such insight before making those draft picks. There is no guaranteed pick in the draft process. NONE of these players can offer 100% certainty that they are going to be great NFL players. Tell me which players will be in the HoF now and then I give that person major respect in about a decade.

That said, I think it is a bit foolhardy to take fans to task for perceived inability to judge game tape when pro teams are looking at the same tape and still consider him a top draft pick.

ALL of these picks are based on POTENTIAL. That's kind of a Captain Obvious observation.

There are a lot of absolute statements being made that seem more like shots in the dark than actual legit analysis. That was my point, not the softball question I posed.

The only consistent knock on Clowney pertains to his 'motor', and even that evaluation has its share of critics.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2639
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
...on an ESPN NFL segment a young reporter named Fields who previously worked for Belichick/Patriots front office said he heard Belichick say once, "we don't draft for production, we draft traits". I take "traits" to me skills, maybe others might have a different interpretation ?
Field Yates.

As Gil Brandt says, teams draft based on their own projections within their positions. It's why a Tom Savage is drawing strong interest from NFL teams but, DraftTwitter is all up in arms...

Gil Brandt ‏@Gil_Brandt
Quote:
Always has been about projection, not college results.
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Old 04-24-2014   #2640
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post

The only consistent knock on Clowney pertains to his 'motor', and even that evaluation has its share of critics.
Sure, but why so many critics if it weren't true or if it were sensationalized? Way to much out there from the game tape, the coach's criticisms, and the over all lack of being consistent as a pass rusher. If this was his his season prior, I think no one would have a problem with him being the #1 guy honestly. I wouldn't have, but he created to many concerns last season to simply ignore.

And when you look at the amount of freakish level pass rushers that end up as busts that go in the top 10 every year, I think that "motor" question is a huge concern. A top flight pass rusher is such a big time weapon for your team. We know that having Watt here. Houston fans should also know about having an inconsistent one as well from watching Mario disappear the way he did a lot. Lets not forget that the Texans were never a great defensive team all of those years with Mario, so this one big time talent doesn't really make your team a great team. Hell, Allen has been the Vikings for years now and they've only been a dominant team one time since he has been there.

I don't see these concerns with Mack though. I think he is a much safer investment and could also bring a similar impact to the defense.
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