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Old 04-19-2014   #2541
Say Watt
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Mercilus s a great athlete?

I get that you don't want Smith to pick Clowney but either

A. Your making stuff up to support your case
b. Have an unhealthy infatuation with Mercilus.

I do believe Mercilus would be more effective on 3rd and longs with Watt/Clowney.
Well to be totally fair, their combines weren't THAT much different.

Whitney Mercilus Combine Profile

Jadeveon Clowney Combine Profile

So while Clowney ran about .1 seconds faster on the 40 yard dash and the 20 yard shuttle, Mercilus performed more reps on the bench press and was faster in the 3 cone drill. I won't touch on the broad jump or the vertical jump, as neither really have much of an effect on a DL/LB. Also, their height and weights at the combine were both very close as well.

Now that I think about it, I really don't see what the major difference is between Clowney and Mercilus, except for the hit against the Michigan running back.
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Old 04-19-2014   #2542
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post

So while Clowney ran about .1 seconds faster on the 40 yard dash and the 20 yard shuttle, Mercilus performed more reps on the bench press and was faster in the 3 cone drill. I won't touch on the broad jump or the vertical jump, as neither really have much of an effect on a DL/LB. Also, their height and weights at the combine were both very close as well.
That could not be more wrong. They measure explosiveness, which is very important to edge rushers. Especially the vertical.
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Old 04-19-2014   #2543
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
In college where you play against future lawyers,barbers,and bartenders, id imagine you could produce at an average level. We've never had a guy rated so high with such a piss poor last yr. That doesn't bother anyone but me?
Nope!
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Old 04-19-2014   #2544
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
I won't touch on the broad jump or the vertical jump, as neither really have much of an effect on a DL/LB. Also, their height and weights at the combine were both very close as well.

Now that I think about it, I really don't see what the major difference is between Clowney and Mercilus, except for the hit against the Michigan running back.
The vertical and broad are two of the most athletically inclined test they do at the combine. Those two drills show great explosion or lack thereof. Do they have a powerful first step or just average and ordinary? The vertical and broad are good indicators for determining those factors.
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Old 04-19-2014   #2545
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Mercilus s a great athlete?

I get that you don't want Smith to pick Clowney but either

A. Your making stuff up to support your case
b. Have an unhealthy infatuation with Mercilus.

I do believe Mercilus would be more effective on 3rd and longs with Watt/Clowney.
Just because Mercilus actually produced in college, doesn't mean he lacks athleticism. I see very little that physically separates Clowney from Mercilus. What do you see differently?
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Old 04-19-2014   #2546
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
The vertical and broad are two of the most athletically inclined test they do at the combine. Those two drills show great explosion or lack thereof. Do they have a powerful first step or just average and ordinary? The vertical and broad are good indicators for determining those factors.
Its the explosion index. Broad jump+vertical+bench = 70 is an explosive player. Its not the end all,just moreso to gauge the kind of athlete you're dealing with.

Example is clowney. 37 vert+ 10ft broad + 23 bench =70

Mario- 40 vert + 10ft broad + 35 bench =85
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Old 04-19-2014   #2547
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I appreciate the correction on the vertical and broad jump. Thanks for educating me on that aspect.

No doubt, Clowney is the superior athlete, but I don't see how the extra .1 seconds in the 40, a slower 3 cone, less bench press reps, and a lackluster junior season equal to a can't miss prospect like many of you are making him out to be. I just don't see it. The post above comparing Mario and Clowney shows that.


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Old 04-20-2014   #2548
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
In college where you play against future lawyers,barbers,and bartenders, id imagine you could produce at an average level. We've never had a guy rated so high with such a piss poor last yr. That doesn't bother anyone but me?
Your assumption is that guys don't have bad last years and get rated highly. That assumption isn't true.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find college stats on people more than a few years back. BUT... Willie McGinest had the same drop off in his last year of college football... and ended up with only 3-4 sacks his last year, as well. He was drafted 4th overall and turned in a pretty good career although he was NOT a sack-master per se.

There are other guys who also had drop-offs in their last year of college and went on to do well.

When you look at the amount of attention that college offenses paid to Clowney, they did double-team, chip, and scheme against him almost double what they do with your normal very good defensive lineman so that entered into his sack totals. (Teams did not do that to him every down, however.)

His lack of production definitely isn't a great sign, it's not the end-all, be-all either.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2549
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Unfortunately, it's hard to find college stats on people more than a few years back. BUT... Willie McGinest had the same drop off in his last year of college football... and ended up with only 3-4 sacks his last year, as well. He was drafted 4th overall and turned in a pretty good career although he was NOT a sack-master per se.
6 his senior year which was not down across the board because he had something like 11 batted balls and 13 TFL and some FF as well.

Quote:
There are other guys who also had drop-offs in their last year of college and went on to do well.
A drop off doesn't mean all drop offs are created equal.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2550
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

"When you’re triple teamed a lot it’s hard to make plays. Once he gets to the NFL people will see the real Jadaveon Clowney."
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Old 04-20-2014   #2551
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by markn View Post
Talk on 790 that TB could fall out of the 1st round. Clowney followed by TB at 2.1 would have sounded like an impossibly good haul a month ago. Sounds like a distinct possibility now and to my mind would be potentially amazing.
That would be a amazing haul. We can dream, can't we?
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Old 04-20-2014   #2552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markn View Post
Talk on 790 that TB could fall out of the 1st round. Clowney followed by TB at 2.1 would have sounded like an impossibly good haul a month ago. Sounds like a distinct possibility now and to my mind would be potentially amazing.

This would be amazing....

Too much weight on post season simulated situations IMO.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2553
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

ESPN: How Clowney will fit Houston's D
Quote:
...
Clowney has the requisite traits -- power, explosiveness, quickness, length, agility, ability bend, torque and fluidity -- to play in any scheme, as ESPN NFL analyst Tedy Bruschi, who won multiple Super Bowls with Crennel as his coordinator, said following Clowney's pro day. The question going into that workout was whether Clowney, a college end, could handle the responsibilities of an outside linebacker, including playing out of a two-point stance and dropping into pass coverage.

"He looked good. He looked fluid," Bruschi said during a recent appearance on "The Herd" with Colin Cowherd. "His hips were flipping right to left, breaking back up on the ball, no wasted movement towards the bottom of his break when he put the anchor in the ground."

Clowney showed a good ability to redirect as well.

"This kid can play outside linebacker in a 3-4 if the Houston Texans decide to play mainly a 3-4 set," Bruschi said.

And not only would Clowney fit with what they do defensively, he'd have the chance to excel. Here's why.

Three-man-front principles
The focal point of Crennel's defense is identifying opposing personnel and tailoring his calls accordingly (we frequently hear of game-plan offenses, but game-plan defenses are the norm in the NFL, too). When an opposing offense trots out its "regular" personnel -- consisting of two running backs and a single tight end -- Crennel counters with his three-man defensive fronts.

More generally speaking, in running situations, Crennel relies on his base defense. One comparison that has been drawn for Clowney is current Kansas City Chiefs outside linebacker Tamba Hali, who some questioned whether he'd fit in Crennel's system when he took over the Kansas City defense in 2010.

Hali played what Crennel referred to as the "Jack" linebacker, aligning away from the strong side of the formation a yard or so off the ball in a two-point stance.

His duties, as described by a former Crennel assistant now coaching with another NFL team, entail: "Against the run, it's about setting the edge. He can't let the ball bounce outside. In coverage -- which he hardly was called up to do -- he had to control the flat. In the pass rush, Crennel is going to try to create one-on-one opportunities for the Jack."

"He'll do that by running two-man rush games with the interior tackles in order to influence a guard aligned to the Jack's side and prevent him from fanning out," the assistant continued. "If he can't create one-on-one rush situations, he'll find ways to create mismatches -- make the running back have to pick him up on occasion, for example."

"He can also flip the Jack from side to side based on the offensive personnel. Anything to create an edge, a boost," he added.

Clowney would not simply be cut free to rush the passer or press upfield in Crennel's system on every down (but, more importantly, he would not be relied upon as an everyday coverage player). Setting the edge is critical to the defense's success, requiring the outside force players to lock out, control the tackle or tight end blocking them and turn everything back inside.

"He does have explosiveness off the ball. He has great leverage and can set the vertical edge," the assistant coach noted. "He can make that ball bounce inside on the run and also be a press bull-rusher."

It just so happens that Houston now employs one of the most reliable edge-setters that Crennel has coached in Mike Vrabel, a former New England Patriot and Chief who is the team's linebackers coach. He and defensive line coach Bill Kollar represent an ideal duo to tutor Clowney and help refine his game.

Sub defense principles
In passing situations, which are ever increasing in today's NFL, Crennel will turn to four-man defensive fronts, at which point Clowney would revert to his familiar setting of playing from a three-point stance.

As Bruschi alluded to in the aforementioned interview, an NFL defense might play sub defense on more than 60 percent of its snaps. As a matter of fact, during my time with the Chiefs in a 2010 matchup against Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts, we turned to what we called our "Penny" personnel for all but a handful of snaps during that game.

The defensive front featured two linemen, two outside linebackers, a single inside linebacker and six defensive backs.

During the prolonged Patriots-Colts rivalry of the 2000s, which Crennel was involved with for many years, it wasn't uncommon for New England to rely on comparable packages utilizing six defensive backs.

Just as Hali was often able to tap into his defensive end experience, Clowney would do much of the same in Houston.

With a higher ceiling of performance.

"Clowney is an exceedingly better athlete ... not even close," one NFL scout said. "Way better equipped to play in space [and has] more versatile rush tools. Tamba is far more skilled [counter setup, hand use] and plays with a way better motor. All that said, Romeo conceivably could do a lot more with Clowney."

Wrapping it up
Despite his numerous assets, a case can be made against drafting Clowney No. 1. It just has to be for particular reasons.
...
But one case that shouldn't be presented in passing on Clowney is that he doesn't fit what the Texans will do defensively in 2014 and beyond.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2554
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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That story was written by a guy named Field Yates.
Quote:
Field Yates has previous experience interning with the New England Patriots on both their coaching and scouting staffs. A graduate of Wesleyan University (CT), he is a regular contributor to ESPN Boston's Patriots coverage and ESPN Insider.
So he might (might) know something about what Crennel is looking for.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2555
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

If the Texans draft a non-QB position with their 1.1 it's most likely gonna be an edge rusher, and given the great investment and high expectations of drafting the #1 overall in any NFL draft, I would hope that the ownership emphasizes the importance of selecting the top talent over a lesser talent who might be more compatible to the current HC's scheme. McNair should know better than anybody that this years top pick may be around longer than the coaching staff.
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Old 04-20-2014   #2556
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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That story was written by a guy named Field Yates. So he might (might) know something about what Crennel is looking for.
He interned (volunteered) while in college after Crennel left. Which doesn't mean he knows nothing but it isn't Crennel in particular.

He also worked for KC while Pioli was there - one season as an in house scout and a second as Haley's personal (not personnel) assistant.
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Old 04-21-2014   #2557
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
One thing I've been told in recent weeks is how impressed teams are with Clowney as a person. He's come across as funny, playful and genuinely likeable. So all that talk about his questionable character isn't playing out in visits with teams.

James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
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Johnny Manziel and Jadeveon Clowney are meeting the the Texans today. teams have till the 27th to finish all their visits.

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Old 04-21-2014   #2558
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
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One thing I've been told in recent weeks is how impressed teams are with Clowney as a person. He's come across as funny, playful and genuinely likeable. So all that talk about his questionable character isn't playing out in visits with teams.
I keep hearing the same things about Manziel. Then again, is this like the blind date setup "she has a great personality"?
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Old 04-21-2014   #2559
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

And the haterade begins on queue...

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris
Quote:
Trucked? RT @evansilva: Merrill Hoge called Clowney's fundamentals "atrocious." "Not a very good football player .. Gets controlled & trucked a lot"
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout
Quote:
Merrill Hoge calls Jadeveon Clowney an atrocious football player. In related news, day drinking is a thing at ESPN.
Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko
Quote:
To paraphrase and alter a statement from former Colts GM Bill Tobin "who in the hell is Merrill Hoge, anyway?"

@evansilva It's about this time every year, Merrill tries to make himself relevant again.
SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar
Quote:
Maybe his tie is tied too tight? RT @nfldraftscout Merril Hoge calls Jadeveon Clowney an atrocious football player.
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Old 04-21-2014   #2560
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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And the haterade begins on queue...

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris
Matt Miller ‏@nfldraftscout

Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar

I'm glad others are calling Hodge out.
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