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Old 04-17-2014   #2461
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
So Rotoworld did a piece on pass-rushing productivity, and basically said that the argument that Clowney got more attention than any other defensive lineman (and only grading pure pass-rush plays, no less) is true.
Hmmm... that piece seems to point to K.Martin as the more versatile pass rusher. He's got a better success rate than Clowney and seems to be able to rush from the left, right, or inside with more or less equal effectiveness.
Wonder what round he's projected to go in...?
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Old 04-17-2014   #2462
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
So you take a chance on someone with huge questions and a much greater likelihood of busting and being out of the league in 4 years? I wouldn't. Drafting shouldn't be so much about what you need but rather what's available.

AJ isn't going to last forever and as much as I like Hopkins, I don't see him as AJ's replacement. Watkins could be. A WR crew of AJ, Watkins, and Hopkins would be hard to stop and could make even a mediocre QB look pretty damned good.

Although we have our franchise LT, we have a gaping hole at RT. With the change in the Rookie Salary structure, I don't have a problem nabbing a guy who really is more suited for RT right now and putting him there while he learns how to play the position and improve his pass protection. This gives us a superior line -- possibly one of the best lines in the league -- and that makes everyone else better. And if something happens to DB, we've got a guy we can put over there who's at least talented enough to play the position.

With Clowney, he's a risk. He's got health questions, motor questions, and motivation questions. He could be the best player out of this draft or he could get a paycheck and be done.

Like I said, I expect us to go Clowney. I'll get behind him and I'll root for him to be the greatest OLB he can be and get lots of sacks for us. But that's just not the strategy I'd take.
MSR, But my sentiments also. I'd love either Mack or Watkins. Mack is my preference.

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Old 04-17-2014   #2463
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
The Boselli angle is either disingenuous agenda-driven or it is based on ignorance of early Texans history.

Boselli was a Casserly deal with the Jags to get Walker and Payne in the expansion draft. At this point, it's not even speculation, but verified history by many of the people involved. The Jags need cap relief and the Texans needed players. Make a deal to take Boselli off their hands and they leave another player the Texans wanted on the board.

I do not hold Boselli against the Texans or think it's even worthy of mention in a story like the Clowney situation. It's like comparing apples to tennis balls.
The tennis balls have the stems. Right??

Great rebuttal. Exactly the way it went down if my grey matter is still connecting. Those signals are going astray at times though, I must admit.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2464
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
We've already got our franchise LT who is under contract for several more years, and WR is a non-premium position which is already our strongest position on offense, maybe the whole roster. What we are really hurting for is an edge pass rusher to pressure the QB.
What we are hurting for is a QB ....


I'm all over the place on this draft , one day its Clowney , the next its Manziel , the next its one of Watkins or Robinson .... the next , I want to trade out of the pick.

But what we are really hurting for is a damn quarterback.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2465
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
The days of grinding out games, pounding the rock, having a game manager that looks the part as the QB, and winning with your defense is almost done.

I know, I know that someone will immediately throw out Seattle as their example. But face the facts, Seattle is the exception, not the rule. There probably won't be another defense built like Seattle this generation. Only two first round picks on that starting D, a bunch of guys left on the scrap heaps by other teams, and late round picks. What Seattle has done with that defense is legendary, but it's the exception not the rule.

All that is to say this is a different NFL. Does prototypical size still matter in today's NFL? Somewhat, but don't make size the primary reason for eliminating a guy from contention when he performed like a superstar against the top talent in the entire college football world. Look at the game tape, and Johnny Manziel is a #1 pick. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but some team is going to reap the rewards of adapting to the future of the NFL with Johnny Manziel. I really hope that team is the Texans.
Yeah, you're right. Tell Pete Carroll that. Seattle DID IT JUST LIKE THAT.

CASE CLOSED...*(is your nose raw yet from swingin' on that j-stap?)*
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Old 04-17-2014   #2466
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
I watched 4 Pittsburgh games this year and 5 South Carolina games. I can say without a doubt and without any hesitation that Aaron Donald was a much better player and much more productive than Jadevon Clowney. Donald was double teamed as much if not more than Clowney. The same is true for 2012 and 2011.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...3/aaron-donald

vs

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...deveon-clowney
The Pitt guy is really talented, and a relentless player, a JJ Watt type. In fact too much of a JJ type because he's an inside guy who will probably end up as a 3-tech. He's basically what we were hoping for in Amobi back before Wade came along when were still running a 4-3.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2467
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Watkins had a pretty subpar sophomore year in 2012 (700 yards and 3 TD's). Certainly not the stats of a #1 overall receiver. Was he dogging plays that year or trying all out and failing? So just like Clowney, he's had two stellar college seasons and one that was fairly mediocre.
Uh, no. He was suspended, then injured. He also only played partial games due to the fact that they didn't need an injured WR playing in blowouts.

We had this discussion a year ago when we determined that actually watching players was important.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2468
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Hmmm... that piece seems to point to K.Martin as the more versatile pass rusher. He's got a better success rate than Clowney and seems to be able to rush from the left, right, or inside with more or less equal effectiveness.
Wonder what round he's projected to go in...?
K.Martin is very good but doesn't have the burst, regardless of what the numbers say.

Besides, 1 K.Martin on the Texans is enough for me.

Just like drafting Carr. We've been down this road before and if he becomes all pro great. But let's hope it's with another team. NO to Roger CARR!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-18-2014   #2469
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
What we are hurting for is a QB ....


I'm all over the place on this draft , one day its Clowney , the next its Manziel , the next its one of Watkins or Robinson .... the next , I want to trade out of the pick.

But what we are really hurting for is a damn quarterback.
This is what the Commander Cody/Bucky Richarson era felt like.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2470
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I think all of this talk of taking a season off in college is overblown. You guys act as if it means he will do the same in the pro's, but college is but a stepping stone into the highest level of football. Why would you risk injury when by all appearances Clowney had locked up the #1 overall pick the previous year?

Why does that make him selfish? He is supposed to blow out a knee, or something for his college teammates most of whom will not even make it to the next level just to make you feel at ease about his commitment to football?

Coaches protect players all the time, including just before the playoffs when they rest their star players, does this mean those players are selfish and only thinking of themselves? Should they go balls to the wall all 16 games even when the playoff berth has been secured just to prove to you they have a good work ethic, or are a team player?

It's very common to protect an asset so why is it so hard for some of you to accept that he took it easy in his final year so as not to be injured so that he didn't blow his chance to make the final level of the game of football?

Is it really that much to ask to see some positive thinking around here instead of all this character assassination over perceived flaws? All this talk means 0 because until they have suited up, and played in some actual games, no amount of hand wringing, or Nostradamus impersonations is going to change anything regarding who has more success in the NFL.

I think if I were Clowney I would have done the same thing, and anyone judging me for it could suck it.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2471
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
This is what the Commander Cody/Bucky Richarson era felt like.
We had season tics back then and I loved watching Bucky run all over the field.

Didn't have a chance in hell of winning, but was entertaining.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2472
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Uh, no. He was suspended, then injured. He also only played partial games due to the fact that they didn't need an injured WR playing in blowouts.

We had this discussion a year ago when we determined that actually watching players was important.
Well, I think a year where Watkins was suspended/injured in 2012 equates to a "down year" as much as Clowney's 2013. So Dan's point is still valid.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2473
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
The Pitt guy is really talented, and a relentless player, a JJ Watt type. In fact too much of a JJ type because he's an inside guy who will probably end up as a 3-tech. He's basically what we were hoping for in Amobi back before Wade came along when were still running a 4-3.
Yeah, he's a Geno Atkins type DT. Good player. Not a great fit for this defense.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2474
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post

But what we are really hurting for is a damn quarterback.
Until this franchise gets s legit QB, they're spinning their wheels. I don't care if it's Johnny Football, some no-name who transferred 17 times, or a kid out of a Upper Mideastern State U. Just pick a guy that can play. There's at least one QB that can play in this draft (from basic statistics). The Texans have no excuses in not finding him.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2475
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Former Georgia quarterback Aaron Murray spent half a decade in the SEC, which in many ways is the closest thing to an NFL minor league. Asked during a Tuesday appearance on NBCSN’s Pro Football Talk to identify the best player he has faced in the conference, Murray didn’t hesitate.

“Clowney, no doubt about it,” Murray said. “He’s a special player, a player you really have to game plan against. . . . He’ll really make you change things up, to be able to get two guys on him at all times, and being able to run away from him.”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...eveon-clowney/
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BTW, Murray had his PD yesterday, dunno if the Texans had anybody there or not ?
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Old 04-18-2014   #2476
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm unabashedly old-school, stubborn, & slow to change my ways.
I love the honesty. It's why I have always enjoyed conversing with you on this board. Cheers.

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But if Manziel had Vick's speed & arm, I'd still want him at #1.
Ok, but Vick had no accuracy, something that Manziel has proven time and time again against the best competition that he has. Accuracy >>>> Arm Strength any day of the week. It's why Peyton Manning had the greatest season of his career all the while having a noodle for an arm, because of the neck injury. As for the speed issue, it's rare a guy runs a straight 40 yard sprint and when he does, it's more important he has lateral quickness, something that Johnny Manziel is extremely comparable to Michael Vick in.

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I like Johnny. If the Texans are going to use our first on a QB, I'd rather it be him. But if we're asking would TK draft Manziel with the #1 overall....

no.

So size is one thing, but there are ways, even in my antiquated way of thinking, to compensate. Right now, Manziel's only compensation is something we can't measure. Had he done it for a three years... maybe. Four years, definitely. But as it stands.... not me, I won't do it. I can't.
Totally fair. Obviously, I disagree, but you have at least made some good points in your arguments against Manziel. I too would love it if Manziel were a few inches taller and about 20 lbs heavier. He'd no doubt be the #1 pick if he was. But that leads me into my response below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
On the whole? Absolutely. For each individual player? No.

People can say what they want but size and measureables will always be huge determining factors to evaluators. That's just how it is. I agree with you though that being undersized shouldn't be anywhere close to being the determining factor in forecasting a player's success.

Being undersized doesn't mean you will fail. However, you must also be aware that most undersized players do fail and work that much harder to succeed. The guys with the will to always get better are the ones who pan out.
Very good post. Rep to you. The bold is the key with Manziel. I have watched every single game the guy has ever played in a Texas A&M uniform and there is NOBODY that wants to win and prove the doubters wrong more than Johnny Football. Yes, he likes to party but when it comes to game time, there is not a player on the field that wants it as bad as Manziel. Every single player that has played with him as well as against him seems to respect Johnny as much if not more than anyone they have ever played with or against. I can't tell you how many times I watched as defenders would nail Johnny Manziel only to reach down, pick him up, and give him a pat. Opposing players after every game would run over to congratulate Manziel. He is the ultimate competitor, and you simply can't teach that. Size should be thrown out the window at that point.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2477
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Well, I think a year where Watkins was suspended/injured in 2012 equates to a "down year" as much as Clowney's 2013. So Dan's point is still valid.
Off the field and therefore not producing =/= on the field and not producing.

It's a cause for concern and investigation but it does not equate.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2478
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

A lot of mockers seem to have Teddy B or Johnny Football sliding way down. If that is a real possibility, I have no problems with the Texans taking Clowney. All it takes is a team to live Derrick Carr over them.

Would take that much ammo to move up from No. 32 to the bottom of the first.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2479
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by drs23 View Post
Yeah, you're right. Tell Pete Carroll that. Seattle DID IT JUST LIKE THAT.

CASE CLOSED...*(is your nose raw yet from swingin' on that j-stap?)*
I've never understood the mentality of some people. You're 57 years old and look at how childish you are. You and I aren't even engaging in conversation, yet you feel the need to come in and take pot shots at me? Grow the **** up.
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Old 04-18-2014   #2480
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
I think all of this talk of taking a season off in college is overblown. You guys act as if it means he will do the same in the pro's, but college is but a stepping stone into the highest level of football. Why would you risk injury when by all appearances Clowney had locked up the #1 overall pick the previous year?

Why does that make him selfish? He is supposed to blow out a knee, or something for his college teammates most of whom will not even make it to the next level just to make you feel at ease about his commitment to football?

Coaches protect players all the time, including just before the playoffs when they rest their star players, does this mean those players are selfish and only thinking of themselves? Should they go balls to the wall all 16 games even when the playoff berth has been secured just to prove to you they have a good work ethic, or are a team player?

It's very common to protect an asset so why is it so hard for some of you to accept that he took it easy in his final year so as not to be injured so that he didn't blow his chance to make the final level of the game of football?

Is it really that much to ask to see some positive thinking around here instead of all this character assassination over perceived flaws? All this talk means 0 because until they have suited up, and played in some actual games, no amount of hand wringing, or Nostradamus impersonations is going to change anything regarding who has more success in the NFL.

I think if I were Clowney I would have done the same thing, and anyone judging me for it could suck it.
So it's not fair to think that his behavior will stay the same and he will continue to look out for #1 but it is fair to assume that he is just going to up and change that behavior when he gets drafted? What about his contract? The second contract is bigger than the rookie contract. He's going to have to protect himself if he doesn't want to blow that knee and get lowballed on that big contract.

The reason coaches protect players is because the players will not protect themselves. They will go 100% for their teammates when they are on the field. The only way to protect them is to get them off of the field. If a guy is only worried about his pro future then that is a huge red flag to me. That says he is a me first guy and will always put himself above his team.

As a player, there is nothing worse than looking at the guy next to you and not knowing if you can count on him or not, regardless of how much physical talent he has.

Players get injured all the time in every way imaginable. Half assing it out there isn't going to protect you from something you can't see coming.

You can tell the people judging to suck it if you wish. But with millions of dollars on the line, the people making the decisions are judging everything. If they don't care about this then it's obviously no big deal. If they do care, then Clowney only has himself to blame.
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