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Old 04-17-2014   #2441
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Obviously the clear reason for this is because our boy Nuk' was tearing things up.

vs. South Carolina - 1 reception for 43 yards and 1 TD (Boyd had a bad game, Clowney also had 4.5 sacks)
vs. Florida State - 5 receptions for 88 yards and 1 TD
vs. LSU - 13 catches for 191 yards and 2 TD's
Clearly we should draft Watkins so that he can get injured/suspended and help D'Andre have a great second year.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2442
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Clearly we should draft Watkins so that he can get injured/suspended and help D'Andre have a great second year.
I agree. We'll need to draft Boyd too though.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2443
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Watkins had a pretty subpar sophomore year in 2012 (700 yards and 3 TD's). Certainly not the stats of a #1 overall receiver. Was he dogging plays that year or trying all out and failing? So just like Clowney, he's had two stellar college seasons and one that was fairly mediocre.
Clowney hasn't had 2 stellar seasons and a mediocre season. If he had, he'd be the hands down #1 pick.

And Watkins' 3 seasons... even the mediocre one... compare favorably to AJs. So. Unless you think AJ isn't a #1...
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Old 04-17-2014   #2444
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
I agree. We'll need to draft Boyd too though.
Which... I have suggested...
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Old 04-17-2014   #2445
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The1ApplePie View Post
Bortles screams Blaine Gabbert to me.
I think where guys like Gabbert goes has just as much to do with his success, as his talent. Jim Harbaugh thinks there's something to Gabbert, so it's possible he's not as bad as he's looked.

One of the reasons I wouldn't have a problem with passing on a first round QB this year, is that I believe all of them are going to need the right environment to be the solid starter we need (possible franchise QB). & I'm hoping OB is good at providing that environment.

Now if there was a can't miss franchise guy, a Peyton Manning, or Phillip Rivers... even someone like Cam Newton, I'd want to take that guy in the first.

If Manziel had Newton's size, no doubt about it, I'd be all over wanting to take him in the first.

If Bridgewater had that production & poise at Pittsburgh, or UNC, or any school in a major conference, I'd be pounding the table for him with the #1 overall.

If Aj McCarron had a gun for an arm, I'd want him with the first overall.

If Mettenberger had numbers like Bridgewater, he'd be my pick.

But with the mix that these guys have, I'd rather take an elite talent with the 1-1.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2446
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
That article only counts pass-rushing downs, not total. Nor does it account for stuff like how many times they ran or passed away from him like during the Tennessee game.

Not to mention that 25% put him at nearly double the rate of every other prospect evaluated in that piece, including Anthony Barr.

But sure, I guess a vague term like 'all the time' isn't the same as 'twice as much', Clowney's a fraud.
There is no bigger fact checker or stickler for details on this board than infantrycak. He's anal about it. So when he used stats that were accumulated from insufficient data there is only one conclusion. He be trollin!
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Old 04-17-2014   #2447
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think where guys like Gabbert goes has just as much to do with his success, as his talent. Jim Harbaugh thinks there's something to Gabbert, so it's possible he's not as bad as he's looked.

One of the reasons I wouldn't have a problem with passing on a first round QB this year, is that I believe all of them are going to need the right environment to be the solid starter we need (possible franchise QB). & I'm hoping OB is good at providing that environment.

Now if there was a can't miss franchise guy, a Peyton Manning, or Phillip Rivers... even someone like Cam Newton, I'd want to take that guy in the first.

If Manziel had Newton's size, no doubt about it, I'd be all over wanting to take him in the first.

If Bridgewater had that production & poise at Pittsburgh, or UNC, or any school in a major conference, I'd be pounding the table for him with the #1 overall.

If Aj McCarron had a gun for an arm, I'd want him with the first overall.

If Mettenberger had numbers like Bridgewater, he'd be my pick.

But with the mix that these guys have, I'd rather take an elite talent with the 1-1.
Gimme a break Thunderkyss, he gave up a 6th round pick for him. So yea he thinks he's something, but apparently not much.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2448
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
That article only counts pass-rushing downs, not total.
He is rated as a freak on his pass rushing ability. You can keep throwing this out there and it still makes no difference in that regard.

Quote:
Not to mention that 25% put him at nearly double the rate of every other prospect evaluated in that piece, including Anthony Barr.

But sure, I guess a vague term like 'all the time' isn't the same as 'twice as much', Clowney's a fraud.
What the hell middle school did you go to? Yeah 25 is just right next to 34.

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Watkins had a pretty subpar sophomore year in 2012 (700 yards and 3 TD's). Certainly not the stats of a #1 overall receiver. Was he dogging plays that year or trying all out and failing? So just like Clowney, he's had two stellar college seasons and one that was fairly mediocre.
So now any one off season counts the same? Nice try but the last season counts more.

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
There is no bigger fact checker or stickler for details on this board than infantrycak. He's anal about it. So when he used stats that were accumulated from insufficient data there is only one conclusion. He be trollin!
He posted the article.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2449
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Gimme a break Thunderkyss, he gave up a 6th round pick for him. So yea he thinks he's something, but apparently not much.
& the Raiders think they're going to the play-offs this season. Part of that reasoning is because they've got Matt Schaub who they got for a 6th round pick.

He could have gotten Connor Shaw with that 6th round pick, but he decided to take Gabbert.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2450
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Now if there was a can't miss franchise guy, a Peyton Manning, or Phillip Rivers... even someone like Cam Newton, I'd want to take that guy in the first.

If Manziel had Newton's size, no doubt about it, I'd be all over wanting to take him in the first.

If Bridgewater had that production & poise at Pittsburgh, or UNC, or any school in a major conference, I'd be pounding the table for him with the #1 overall.

If Aj McCarron had a gun for an arm, I'd want him with the first overall.

If Mettenberger had numbers like Bridgewater, he'd be my pick.

But with the mix that these guys have, I'd rather take an elite talent with the 1-1.
Really good post man. Hard to disagree with much, except for the bold. It just seems to me that making size that big of an issue in today's NFL is yesteryear's mentality. The league has changed, and nearly all of us have complained on this very message board about those changes and what they have done to the NFL. In many ways, it sucks, but you can't deny it's a different league than it once was. The days of grinding out games, pounding the rock, having a game manager that looks the part as the QB, and winning with your defense is almost done.

I know, I know that someone will immediately throw out Seattle as their example. But face the facts, Seattle is the exception, not the rule. There probably won't be another defense built like Seattle this generation. Only two first round picks on that starting D, a bunch of guys left on the scrap heaps by other teams, and late round picks. What Seattle has done with that defense is legendary, but it's the exception not the rule.

All that is to say this is a different NFL. Does prototypical size still matter in today's NFL? Somewhat, but don't make size the primary reason for eliminating a guy from contention when he performed like a superstar against the top talent in the entire college football world. Look at the game tape, and Johnny Manziel is a #1 pick. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but some team is going to reap the rewards of adapting to the future of the NFL with Johnny Manziel. I really hope that team is the Texans.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2451
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
Really good post man. Hard to disagree with much, except for the bold. It just seems to me that making size that big of an issue in today's NFL is yesteryear's mentality. The league has changed, and nearly all of us have complained on this very message board about those changes and what they have done to the NFL. In many ways, it sucks, but you can't deny it's a different league than it once was. The days of grinding out games, pounding the rock, having a game manager that looks the part as the QB, and winning with your defense is almost done.

I know, I know that someone will immediately throw out Seattle as their example. But face the facts, Seattle is the exception, not the rule. There probably won't be another defense built like Seattle this generation. Only two first round picks on that starting D, a bunch of guys left on the scrap heaps by other teams, and late round picks. What Seattle has done with that defense is legendary, but it's the exception not the rule.

All that is to say this is a different NFL. Does prototypical size still matter in today's NFL? Somewhat, but don't make size the primary reason for eliminating a guy from contention when he performed like a superstar against the top talent in the entire college football world. Look at the game tape, and Johnny Manziel is a #1 pick. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but some team is going to reap the rewards of adapting to the future of the NFL with Johnny Manziel. I really hope that team is the Texans.
I'm unabashedly old-school, stubborn, & slow to change my ways.

But if Manziel had Vick's speed & arm, I'd still want him at #1.

I like Johnny. If the Texans are going to use our first on a QB, I'd rather it be him. But if we're asking would TK draft Manziel with the #1 overall....


no.


So size is one thing, but there are ways, even in my antiquated way of thinking, to compensate. Right now, Manziel's only compensation is something we can't measure. Had he done it for a three years... maybe. Four years, definitely. But as it stands.... not me, I won't do it. I can't.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2452
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post



So now any one off season counts the same? Nice try but the last season counts more.
See: Arian Foster and Brian Cushing
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Old 04-17-2014   #2453
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
All that is to say this is a different NFL. Does prototypical size still matter in today's NFL? Somewhat, but don't make size the primary reason for eliminating a guy from contention when he performed like a superstar against the top talent in the entire college football world. Look at the game tape, and Johnny Manziel is a #1 pick. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong, but some team is going to reap the rewards of adapting to the future of the NFL with Johnny Manziel. I really hope that team is the Texans.
On the whole? Absolutely. For each individual player? No.

People can say what they want but size and measureables will always be huge determining factors to evaluators. That's just how it is. I agree with you though that being undersized shouldn't be anywhere close to being the determining factor in forecasting a player's success.

Being undersized doesn't mean you will fail. However, you must also be aware that most undersized players do fail and work that much harder to succeed. The guys with the will to always get better are the ones who pan out.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2454
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Draft Clowney, do the surgery and he will be good to go for 4-5 yrs.

That's good enough for me to take the most talented guy in the draft. CND said if Clowney has the surgery then he would have no problem with Clowney at 1-1. That's good enough for me.

Carry on with the babble.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2455
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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See: Arian Foster and Brian Cushing
What does this have to do with any player we might draft?
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Old 04-17-2014   #2456
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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See: Arian Foster and Brian Cushing
Not sure what point you are attempting to make. Foster went UDFA because of an off final season and Cushing didn't have an off year and didn't fall in the draft.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2457
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I watched 4 Pittsburgh games this year and 5 South Carolina games. I can say without a doubt and without any hesitation that Aaron Donald was a much better player and much more productive than Jadevon Clowney. Donald was double teamed as much if not more than Clowney. The same is true for 2012 and 2011.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...3/aaron-donald

vs

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...deveon-clowney
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Old 04-17-2014   #2458
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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He is rated as a freak on his pass rushing ability. You can keep throwing this out there and it still makes no difference in that regard.
If your entire goal was to prove that some nonexistent poster here claimed that Clowney was double/triple-teamed or chipped on, literally and explicitly, 'every single play', then you would be right. Congrats, I guess. You totally showed that nonexistant person who was totally seriously and not using hyperbole; would you like a gold star?

But in your hilarious (and perhaps a bit pitiful) attempt to paint anything related to Clowney as negative, you're leaving out the fact that he was drawing more attention from opposing offense than any of his competitors. Add in the strength of schedule for SCAR last year, and that should raise a few eyebrows when you consider that he'd be on a defensive line with JJ Watt; they can't get away with only focusing on one of them and not pay for it.

And all of that is STILL ignoring the fact that the writer explicitly left out rushing plays (and even then if the team was running at or away from Clowney), only using 3-step drops, etc. Your posting on this is becoming intransigent at best or intellectually dishonest at worst.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2459
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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What does this have to do with any player we might draft?
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Not sure what point you are attempting to make. Foster went UDFA because of an off final season and Cushing didn't have an off year and didn't fall in the draft.
The point was that both of them were signed based on their career's production, not their last season. If you only consider their last seasons before declaring Cushing would not have been a first round choice and Foster never would have gotten a shot at all. I thought I remembered Cushing had a better junior year, so I admit there wasn't a real dropoff with his stats, but his stats were not overwhelming the year before he was drafted. He had more tackles than Clowney, but he played LB. They both had the same number of sacks and TFL. Statistically Cushing's collegiate career was not exceptional. Cushing excelled with his versatility, at the combine, and in interviews. From NFL.com:


Quote:
Overview

While teammate Rey Maualuga generated most of the headlines over their respective careers, it could be the versatile Cushing who enjoys the last laugh come draft day. While he has struggled with durability at times, Cushing held up in 2008, starting all 13 games for the Trojans and earning second-team AP All-American accolades despite rather pedestrian statistics (73 tackles, 10.5 tackles for loss, 3.0 sacks).

NFL scouts don't admire Cushing for his statistics, but for his versatility. Athletic and instinctive enough to star at linebacker and yet big and strong enough to compete at defensive end -- as he did in starting 13 games at the position in 2006 when injuries forced the Trojans to be creative -- Cushing is arguably the draft's most versatile defender.

Cautious teams will certainly look into Cushing's previous struggles with durability, but his upside might be too much to allow him to get out of the top 20 come draft day.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2460
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You won't get a do not draft opinion from him and I am not saying he has said anything like that. He would take the risk IF Clowney promises to have the surgery immediately. He's also doesn't say surgery = wham bam light a cigarette. I don't differ from what he has said on the medical issues but we differ on the decision to be made based on that.
I don't feel like looking for the exact post right now, but I think CND's position is for Clowney to have that foot surgery right after the draft as a condition of employment. I'd bet a paycheck he said, if Clowney refused to get that spur fixed he'd stay away from him.

...but I've been wrong before.
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