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Old 04-17-2014   #2421
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
I find your reluctance to draft Clowney even though you expect O'Brien/Smith to do just that very curious ? Is it you think the Texans are just plain incompetent, or perhaps you think they are reckless in downplaying a risk you perceive to be very substantial with Clowney ?
Just because I have a strategy that I consider superior doesn't mean that someone who disagrees with me is incompetent or reckless. I can acknowledge the fact that other people have other strategies that they prefer. It's just a difference of opinion.

I think that OB and Smith think that the combination of JJ Watt, Brian Cushing, RAC, and Kollar offset Clowney's potential problems and provide a good framework in which he can be successful.

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But I would expect AJ to have atleast 2 more years as our #1 receiver, and with both Hopkins and Posey showing promise as #2 WRs, what we really need in the receiving area is a slot guy and help at TE. With so many glaring holes on the Texans DC, just don't see the wisdom in using the #1 overall in maybe our strongest position on the team ?
The thing about drafting BPA is that sometimes you improve a strength. I don't know how many more years AJ is our #1. But having at least a year or two for his replacement to learn from him would be a good thing, I think.

This is a deep draft at WR and I expect to fix the Slot in this draft. I'm not so sure that Posey and Martin are going to make the team this year.

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But your thoughts about improving the OLine with a pick at RT makes a lot of sense: consider Taylor Lewan for that position because he's might be a better pass blocking talent that Robinson or Matthews
while still being a solid run blocker.
My problem with Lewan is that I'm afraid he's mentally unstable in a Richie Incognito sort of way. He can get overly aggressive on the field and that also spills into his personal life. If I were judging purely on what I've seen playing-wise, I'd agree with you. He'd probably be my top OT in this draft... if he had a better grasp of reality.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2422
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by klockWork View Post
Yeah, I knew the Boselli bomb would drop. Just want to see who take the bait. Comparing an old vet with shoulder injury against a 21 year-old with minor bonespurs... I like my chances a lot more on the youngins.
The Boselli angle is either disingenuous agenda-driven or it is based on ignorance of early Texans history.

Boselli was a Casserly deal with the Jags to get Walker and Payne in the expansion draft. At this point, it's not even speculation, but verified history by many of the people involved. The Jags need cap relief and the Texans needed players. Make a deal to take Boselli off their hands and they leave another player the Texans wanted on the board.

I do not hold Boselli against the Texans or think it's even worthy of mention in a story like the Clowney situation. It's like comparing apples to tennis balls.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2423
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

So Rotoworld did a piece on pass-rushing productivity, and basically said that the argument that Clowney got more attention than any other defensive lineman (and only grading pure pass-rush plays, no less) is true.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2424
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Just because I have a strategy that I consider superior doesn't mean that someone who disagrees with me is incompetent or reckless. I can acknowledge the fact that other people have other strategies that they prefer. It's just a difference of opinion.

I think that OB and Smith think that the combination of JJ Watt, Brian Cushing, RAC, and Kollar offset Clowney's potential problems and provide a good framework in which he can be successful.
Well even though Clowney is my personal choice (in lieu of being unable to do a trade), I don't necessarily have a feel, not even a touch about who I think the Texans will use their 1.1 to select ? But your reservations about Clowney seem to center around motivational/"motor" type issues as you failed to mention specific concerns about Clowney's physical fitness including concerns about possible lingering injuries ?
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Old 04-17-2014   #2425
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
So Rotoworld did a piece on pass-rushing productivity, and basically said that the argument that Clowney got more attention than any other defensive lineman (and only grading pure pass-rush plays, no less) is true.
And showed that Clowney topped out the list at facing help 25% of the time, not the "all the time" frequently asserted around here.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2426
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
So Rotoworld did a piece on pass-rushing productivity, and basically said that the argument that Clowney got more attention than any other defensive lineman (and only grading pure pass-rush plays, no less) is true.
Nice article. I watched the Florida/South Carolina game and Florida wanted NO part of Clowney. They did so many quick drops and ran to the other side.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2427
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by noxiousdog View Post
Nice article. I watched the Florida/South Carolina game and Florida wanted NO part of Clowney. They did so many quick drops and ran to the other side.
The running to the other side has merit, but the quick drops don't (JMO). If you watched many Florida games last year then you would notice how elementary their passing attack was. They lived off short passes and quick drops. It was quite embarrassing really. As a team, they threw 11 TD passes last year to 9 INT's and only averaged 6.60 yards per attempt.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2428
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Well even though Clowney is my personal choice (in lieu of being unable to do a trade), I don't necessarily have a feel, not even a touch about who I think the Texans will use their 1.1 to select ?
Again, different people, different opinions. I think they're leaning toward Clowney and then two later round QBs.

Other people think they're going to go Bortles or whatever.

Quote:
But your reservations about Clowney seem to center around motivational/"motor" type issues as you failed to mention specific concerns about Clowney's physical fitness including concerns about possible lingering injuries ?
My biggest issues with Clowney are with his motor. I acknowledge that he's got bone spurs and those could cause him some problems but those aren't my biggest concern with him.

When you look at "athletic freak" types of lineman that have been drafted high, you see a bunch of sure-things that seem to fail because of that lack of motivation/desire/drive. For every Bruce Smith there's a Vernon Gholston; for every Julius Peppers, there's a Courtney Brown. I'd even put Mario Williams into that list of guys who, if he had the motor, could have been a dominant player in this league but who's not.

So the fact that Clowney has questions about his drive and fire are huge red-flags to me. The fact that I watch his games and I see him with a lot of plays where he doesn't seem to be trying very hard bother me.

Earlier on in this process, I had him off my board completely as someone I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole because of his production issues and his motor questions. The last thing I wanted was another Aaron Curry or another Sam Montgomery.

But I've softened on that stance. Some other big-name guys have had less production in their last year of college. And I've liked what some of the pros like Bruschi and McGinest have said about him. So I've still got red-flags but I'm not totally against him like I was.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2429
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
The running to the other side has merit, but the quick drops don't (JMO). If you watched many Florida games last year then you would notice how elementary their passing attack was. They lived off short passes and quick drops. It was quite embarrassing really. As a team, they threw 11 TD passes last year to 9 INT's and only averaged 6.60 yards per attempt.
Wow, that IS awful. But it does still limit Clowney's opportunities. There's more games to watch!
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Old 04-17-2014   #2430
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
And showed that Clowney topped out the list at facing help 25% of the time, not the "all the time" frequently asserted around here.
That article only counts pass-rushing downs, not total. Nor does it account for stuff like how many times they ran or passed away from him like during the Tennessee game.

Not to mention that 25% put him at nearly double the rate of every other prospect evaluated in that piece, including Anthony Barr.

But sure, I guess a vague term like 'all the time' isn't the same as 'twice as much', Clowney's a fraud.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2431
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
So the fact that Clowney has questions about his drive and fire are huge red-flags to me. The fact that I watch his games and I see him with a lot of plays where he doesn't seem to be trying very hard bother me.
Out of curiosity, would Clowney have been your top pick last year had he been eligible for the Draft ? He wasn't of course because he'd only been in college 2 years, but coming off of his outstanding sophomore year that was also very producitve most Draft guys say Clowney would have been the top guy in last years Draft even though he was only 2 years out of HS.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2432
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Out of curiosity, would Clowney have been your top pick last year had he been eligible for the Draft ? He wasn't of course because he'd only been in college 2 years, but coming off of his outstanding sophomore year that was also very producitve most Draft guys say Clowney was the top guy in last years Draft even though he was only 2 years out of HS.
Clowney would easily be #1 last year. But keep in mind that the 2013 draft was one of the weakest drafts in years as far as top talent goes. Eric Fisher went #1 overall. He wouldn't even be the top ranked OT this year. Dion Jordan went #3. He wouldn't go top 10 this year.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2433
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Out of curiosity, would Clowney have been your top pick last year had he been eligible for the Draft ? He wasn't of course because he'd only been in college 2 years, but coming off of his outstanding sophomore year that was also very producitve most Draft guys say Clowney would have been the top guy in last years Draft even though he was only 2 years out of HS.
Unfortunately, I don't follow college ball that closely.

I only start really looking at guys after the NFL season is over and only when they're eligible for the draft and have announced that they're coming out. When I've looked at Clowney, I've ONLY looked at his past year's tape; I think a lot of the people who are the most sold on Clowney are people who've spent a lot of time watching his 2012 film. I don't go back to previous years unless the guy I'm looking at was injured.

I'm not a hardcore draftnik like a lot of the guys on the board. I've got no pretensions about being a scout or a GM. I listen to the people who are to get a feel for which players to concentrate on and then I start tracking down game film for those guys that seem interesting. I like to have a general idea of who should be drafted where but I don't break everyone down.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2434
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Clowney would easily be #1 last year. But keep in mind that the 2013 draft was one of the weakest drafts in years as far as top talent goes. Eric Fisher went #1 overall. He wouldn't even be the top ranked OT this year. Dion Jordan went #3. He wouldn't go top 10 this year.
Yes I know last years Draft was weak. Now I've also heard reports that as a freshman Clowney would have been #3 overall after Luck & RGIII in 2012. Agree or disagree ?
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Old 04-17-2014   #2435
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Yes I know last years Draft was weak. Now I've also heard reports that as a freshman Clowney would have been #3 overall after Luck & RGIII in 2012. Agree or disagree ?
Well that draft was also pretty weak once you got past Luck and I guess Griffin (not a fan). Hell, Trent Richardson went #3 that year.

It's certainly possible though. Clowney had a pretty good freshman year (8.0 sacks and 12.0 TFL) and was a very highly touted recruit. He definitely had a lot of scouts' eyes on him. I have a feeling those reports might have been written after his fantastic sophomore year though (13.0 sacks and 23.5 TFL). It's easy to project that in hindsight.

It's completely in the eye of the beholder though. We'd never know with any certainty unless freshmen were eligible to be drafted. The physical tools were there since he was a youngster though, he's a rare specimen.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2436
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Watkins had a pretty subpar sophomore year in 2012 (700 yards and 3 TD's). Certainly not the stats of a #1 overall receiver. Was he dogging plays that year or trying all out and failing? So just like Clowney, he's had two stellar college seasons and one that was fairly mediocre.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2437
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Watkins had a pretty subpar sophomore year in 2012 (700 yards and 3 TD's). Certainly not the stats of a #1 overall receiver. Was he dogging plays that year or trying all out and failing? So just like Clowney, he's had two stellar college seasons and one that was fairly mediocre.
IIRC, he was suspended for a few games for a drug arrest. Which is much better than being perceived as "lazy"......
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Old 04-17-2014   #2438
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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IIRC, he was suspended for a few games for a drug arrest. Which is much better than being perceived as "lazy"......
Yep. 2 games for drugs and he missed another game too. The thing is he didn't really show up in their big games that year:

vs S. Carolina 4 catches for 37 yeards
vs Florida St: 6 catches for 24 yards
Bowl versus LSU: 0 catches, 1 rush for -3 yards.


http://espn.go.com/college-football/.../sammy-watkins

Outside of that Wake game and maybe NC State that's not a great year. It's not horrible, but it's underwhelming, especially compared to every other year he played football.

Just like Clowney
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Old 04-17-2014   #2439
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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IIRC, he was suspended for a few games for a drug arrest. Which is much better than being perceived as "lazy"......
Missed 4 games in 2012 due to suspension and injuries. Also shared the field with DeAndre Hopkins who was putting up monster numbers in 2012.
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Old 04-17-2014   #2440
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Yep. 2 games for drugs and he missed another game too. The thing is he didn't really show up in their big games that year:

vs S. Carolina 4 catches for 37 yeards
vs Florida St: 6 catches for 24 yards
Bowl versus LSU: 0 catches, 1 rush for -3 yards.
Obviously the clear reason for this is because our boy Nuk' was tearing things up.

vs. South Carolina - 1 reception for 43 yards and 1 TD (Boyd had a bad game, Clowney also had 4.5 sacks)
vs. Florida State - 5 receptions for 88 yards and 1 TD
vs. LSU - 13 catches for 191 yards and 2 TD's
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