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Old 04-03-2014   #2101
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Totally disagree with just about all of this. These are terrible reasons to make a selection and you come off as if you are just reaching for anything that justifies taking Manziel.
I have already detailed my reasons for thinking Manziel is the guy ad nauseum. Those weren't reaches. They were related to MY sense of frustration with the bland state of the Texans organization. We've never gone after speed, we've never gone after flashy, but instead we have always attempted to play it "safe". Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but if you are being honest with yourself, more often than not the Texans are going with the vanilla pick.

As for the reasons I think we should draft Manziel, I'll give you a few of them.

1. Intensity: the guy wants to win more than anyone else on the field
2. Leadership: directly related to point 1; his intensity is what causes his teammates to respect him and want to win for him
3. Accuracy: threw for just under 70% last year and that was while throwing more intermediate and deep balls than any of the other 1st round QBs
4. Arm strength: can deliver the ball to every part of the field and has the arm strength to get it into tight spaces
5. Athleticism: he can run but even more important, he is one of the most agile players you will ever see; yes, injuries are a concern, but his elusiveness keeps him from taking a lot of the biggest hits
6. Improvisation: the best of the best know how to make things happen when the play breaks down; Manziel does this better than anyone most analysts and scouts have ever seen since a guy named Brett Favre played the game

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Who cares about making a statement? We should care about winning. We can debate about who or what will help this team win, but making a statement isn't it.
Yes, and Manziel can quite likely help this team win while the organization makes a statement.

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Swinging for the fences? Sounds good but you better do your homework because you're just as likely to strike out.
Correct. As I said in my post, it can either work out incredibly, or we can fall flat on our faces. But I'm tired of 12 seasons with two playoff appearances. It's time for this organization to take a chance.

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Exciting brand of football? Are we trying to win games or drive up ratings?
Is Peyton Manning exciting? Is Drew Brees exciting? Heck, people seem to forget Michael Vick was taking the Falcons to the NFC Championship seemingly every year before he went to prison. The Texans have never even sniffed an AFC Championship game. Keep doing the same things, and we can expect the same results. I'm tired of the same old.

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I do somewhat agree with your point about a high-powered offense, but the #1 defense in the league just won the Super Bowl. And if you look at the top ten teams in points scored, I don't think that Manziel has a skill set similar to the majority of their QBs.

1. Denver - Peyton
2. Chicago - Cutler/McCown
3. New England - Brady
4. Philadelphia - Foles
5. Dallas - Romo
6. Cincinnati - Dalton
7. Kansas City - Smith
8. Green Bay - Rodgers
9. Seattle - Wilson
10. New Orleans - Brees

Outside of Wilson, those guys are all pretty close to the prototype. That doesn't mean that you necessarily have to search for the prototype, but it shows me that the rules favor the guys who sit in the pocket and pick you apart.
Manziel is as unique a player as has ever come out for the NFL. Like it or not, Mike Vick did cause a huge impact early in his career, and that was with the guy being incapable of hitting the broadside of the barn. As you have already agreed with me, that isn't a problem with Manziel. Combine athleticism similar to Vick, similar to RG3, with a good arm and great accuracy and you have a POTENTIALLY game changing QB.

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I don't believe the same as you do on the bolded. But for the rest of the statement, I couldn't agree more. I just don't think Manziel is that guy.
And that's really what it boils down to. You don't believe Manziel is that guy, and I do. I have watched every game the guy has ever played. I'm not just some Aggie homer. You can go through my posts, and there has never been an Aggie I have been this intent on the Texans drafting. I do understand why posters see this similarly to the 2006 draft but where I differ greatly is there is no Reggie Bush in this draft nor is there a Mario Williams. Hell, there isn't even a Matt Leinart, a guy that nearly everyone thought was going to be a guarantee at the QB position.

While Clowney finished his career with a whopping three sacks and 41 tackles, Mario had 14 sacks and 57 tackles. Yes, the hit on the Michigan RB was bad ass. Yes, he makes some highlight plays. No, stats don't tell the whole story. But no one will ever convince me (that is unless Clowney comes in and dominates in the NFL) that a guy with three sacks his final college season is the next coming of Bruce Smith. I'm just not buying what you and many others are selling based on a guy's athletic ability and a few highlight plays.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2102
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
I believe the knee injury was against Mizzou, then a second knee injury against Ole Miss. He waited until Auburn to enjoy his shoulder injury.

But don't worry, he's still got several joints and limbs left for the Big Boys to re-arrange.
It was Ole Miss, I got my Manziel injury list mixed up. When a guy has that many injuries at 21-22 yrs old an old man like me can lose track of them.

Many/Many joints are probably in Manziel's future. (Hydroponic)
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Old 04-03-2014   #2103
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
I believe the knee injury was against Mizzou, then a second knee injury against Ole Miss. He waited until Auburn to enjoy his shoulder injury.

But don't worry, he's still got several joints and limbs left for the Big Boys to re-arrange.
He "hurt" his knee against Mizzou the year prior. He finished that game with 372 yards passing, 3 TDs, 67 rushing yards, and 2 rushing TDs. That knee really hurt him there. And in the injury against Ole Miss, he still finished with 124 rushing yards, and 2 rushing TDs. Most importantly, the Aggies won both of those games.

In the Auburn game, he did hurt his shoulder. It bothered him the rest of the season but what really hurt him was the injury to his thumb on his throwing hand before the LSU game. This kept him from being able to properly grip the ball and especially caused him problems in the crap weather during the LSU game.

But hey, remind me how many games he missed in his college career...
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Old 04-03-2014   #2104
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Totally disagree with just about all of this. These are terrible reasons to make a selection and you come off as if you are just reaching for anything that justifies taking Manziel.

Who cares about making a statement? We should care about winning. We can debate about who or what will help this team win, but making a statement isn't it.
Agree.... 100%


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I do somewhat agree with your point about a high-powered offense, but the #1 defense in the league just won the Super Bowl. And they flat out embarrassed the greatest offense of all time to do it. Plus, if you look at the top ten teams in points scored, I don't think that Manziel has a skill set similar to the majority of their QBs.

1. Denver - Peyton
2. Chicago - Cutler/McCown
3. New England - Brady
4. Philadelphia - Foles
5. Dallas - Romo
6. Cincinnati - Dalton
7. Kansas City - Smith
8. Green Bay - Rodgers
9. Seattle - Wilson
10. New Orleans - Brees

Outside of Wilson, those guys are all pretty close to the prototype. That doesn't mean that you necessarily have to search for the prototype, but it shows me that the rule changes favor the guys who sit in the pocket and pick you apart.
Don't know that I can agree with you here. When I project "good" Johnny into the future, I'm looking at some amalgamation of the bolded QBs.

Edit: Sorry, you said majority
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Old 04-04-2014   #2105
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
He "hurt" his knee against Mizzou the year prior. He finished that game with 372 yards passing, 3 TDs, 67 rushing yards, and 2 rushing TDs. That knee really hurt him there. And in the injury against Ole Miss, he still finished with 124 rushing yards, and 2 rushing TDs. Most importantly, the Aggies won both of those games.

In the Auburn game, he did hurt his shoulder. It bothered him the rest of the season but what really hurt him was the injury to his thumb on his throwing hand before the LSU game. This kept him from being able to properly grip the ball and especially caused him problems in the crap weather during the LSU game.

But hey, remind me how many games he missed in his college career...
I'm quite aware of all of that. Just because you can play through injuries, even well, doesn't mean they don't do damage with each and every incident. Injuries no matter how minor (especially like the thumb ligament damage he sustained which can be a career-long weakness increasing risk for chronic re-injury) have a way to leading to additive damage that ultimately catches up with you. I'd wait until a full season or two with the Big Boys before I'd show the sarcasm. Players with a history of numerous lesser injuries in college not uncommonly go onto bigger and better things when they get to the next level.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2106
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I'm pretty much like this.

Bridgewater scares me because when he was put under pressure at his pro day he wilted. (Confirming my suspicions.)
Under pressure he wilts? Just not on the football field where it matters though I guess...

Best QB Pro days of the last 10 years... JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Blaine Gabbert.... Johnny Manziel?

Football players are made on the Football field.

I won't sit here and say TBs pro day wasn't disappointing or that Clowney's wasn't impressive, because they both were just that. I won't lie to myself. Regardless, these should be thought about, but have little bearing and ABSOLUTELY not be a be all end all.

I've always looked at pro days and combines for guys in rounds 5+ (might go 6+ this year, this draft is Stacked!) because I believe 95% of the time those guys are gonna fail in the NFL so I'd rather have a beast athlete that has a chance to learn what it takes, who in the meantime will either pop someone hard on special teams or fly down the field untouched on special teams.

First 4 rounds I've always only cared about what happens on the football field, and until something drastic happens that shakes this, I will give very little credence to these dog and pony shows.

When you get obsessed with Pro Days and Combines you end up drafting Stephen Hills and leaving Alshon Jeffery's on the board, some food for thought.

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Old 04-04-2014   #2107
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
Under pressure he wilts? Just not on the football field where it matters though I guess...

Best QB Pro days of the last 10 years... JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Blaine Gabbert.... Johnny Manziel?
There's a difference between "not impressive" & "bad" Teddy's was "bad"


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Football players are made on the Football field.

Regardless, these should be thought about, but have little bearing and ABSOLUTE not be a be all end all.

I've always looked at pro days and combines for guys in rounds 5+ (might go 6+ this year, this draft is Stacked!) because I believe 95% of the time those guys are gonna fail in the NFL so I'd rather have a beast athlete that has a chance to learn what it takes, who in the meantime will either pop someone hard on special teams or fly down the field untouched on special teams.
I don't necessarily put a lot of weight in pro days, however when we're talking about a QB, & we're talking about a guy from a small conference, & that guy skipped out on the combine work outs, & it was a particularly bad showing, I think it adds up.

All of these guys had questions coming out of college. All of them have been working on those questions since. Some of them came out & answered some of those questions, or at least displayed the ability to improve, or at least respond to additional coaching.

Some raised more questions.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2108
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I'm not saying that Manziel isn't capable of that, but that's not his game. And that's why I don't like how his skills translate to the NFL. The only way you get that kind of player is if you tame him, and if you tame him I worry that you're taking away some of the things that make him special. If you let him play his way, I fear you're looking at a guy who isn't going to last very long.
I think it helps to be built like Steve McNair if you are going to be a qb who can stand in the pocket and then apply your running skills when needed. I'm like you in the fact that I'd be fonder of Manziel if he had a physical build that could take some punishment going fwd.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2109
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I think it helps to be built like Steve McNair if you are going to be a qb who can stand in the pocket and then apply your running skills when needed. I'm like you in the fact that I'd be fonder of Manziel if he had a physical build that could take some punishment going fwd.
Yes, but even Steve was beat to crap. Which caught up to him towards the end of his career.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2110
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I think it helps to be built like Steve McNair if you are going to be a qb who can stand in the pocket and then apply your running skills when needed. I'm like you in the fact that I'd be fonder of Manziel if he had a physical build that could take some punishment going fwd.
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Yes, but even Steve was beat to crap. Which caught up to him towards the end of his career.
Got a solid decade out of a guy who played with a lot of pain. McNair was 240lbs. and built like a linebacker. I don't see Manziel holding up as well.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2111
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Got a solid decade out of a guy who played with a lot of pain. McNair was 240lbs. and built like a linebacker. I don't see Manziel holding up as well.
That's why I think JF best comparison is Vick . JF only played two years in college and he was starting to get nicked .
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Old 04-04-2014   #2112
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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That's why I think JF best comparison is Vick . JF only played two years in college and he was starting to get nicked .
Only in terms of size and concerns about durability, because while JF is somewhat athletic he's light years away from a great athlete like Vick, and furthermore he doesn't have near the arm that Vick does.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2113
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Since I don't post as much I think I'll just state here for the record that I've come full circle and am currently leaning back to taking Clowney and thinking that Crennel will use him like HOF'er Willie McGinest. With Watt and a big NT to clog the middle we can have heat from both sides of the ball for a change. I think this roster will take some time so I'm ok if we don't find our ideal QB for now as long as we have a build similar to Seattle's build.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2114
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Only in terms of size and concerns about durability, because while JF is somewhat athletic he's light years away from a great athlete like Vick, and furthermore he doesn't have near the arm that Vick does.
But Manziel sees the field better than Vick ever did & is a lot more accurate throwing the football... kind of a wash if you ask me.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2115
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Since I don't post as much I think I'll just state here for the record that I've come full circle and am currently leaning back to taking Clowney and thinking that Crennel will use him like HOF'er Willie McGinest. With Watt and a big NT to clog the middle we can have heat from both sides of the ball for a change. I think this roster will take some time so I'm ok if we don't find our ideal QB for now as long as we have a build similar to Seattle's build.
I concur.

We will take a QB, but I wouldn't be disappointed if it was a 4th, or 5th round pick knowing that this class is hit or miss from the top down. That might give us a chance to shore up some slots like ILB, NT, DB, and OL.

OB stated that they draft based on value, not need in an interview last week, so we will see.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2116
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I think it helps to be built like Steve McNair if you are going to be a qb who can stand in the pocket and then apply your running skills when needed. I'm like you in the fact that I'd be fonder of Manziel if he had a physical build that could take some punishment going fwd.

Without question. He needs to put on some weight. No way he ever gets to 240, but 220 certainly isn't out of the question. How would you say Manziel's accuracy compares with McNair? From what I remember, he wasn't a slouch, but I'd say Manziel is more accurate. Out of my QB, I'll take the accuracy over some additional size.

As Gruden said perfectly, Manziel has got to master the check down to be a success in the NFL. He is going to have to learn to take what defenses give him and not always try to make the big play. What people don't realize is a lot of Johnny's risk taking was due to just how pitiful A&M's defense was. They were atrocious and got scored on nearly every drive. That puts a lot of pressure on a QB to make things happen. Put Manziel on a team with a good to great defense, and I find it very unlikely he doesn't have major success.


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Old 04-04-2014   #2117
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I've still got Bridgewater as my #1 prospect in this draft.

I expect him to be a franchise QB and franchise QB's are always more valuable than any other position.

So what I'm hoping is we trade down a little bit and still get Teddy.

Haven't heard much talk about us drafting him. Have heard lots of chatter about the other prospects, and that's a good thing. Don't let other teams think we're interested so when we trade the Clowney pick for a kings ransom, no one jumps ahead of us to grab out guy. And if they do jump ahead of us it's to grab Manziel since they think that's who we want.

Draft TB, get your franchise guy and have a boatload of picks to grab other impact players.
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Old 04-04-2014   #2118
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Oh awesome, Manziel talk in the JD thread..
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Old 04-04-2014   #2119
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bOODRO87 View Post
Oh awesome, Manziel talk in the JD thread..
Let's get the Manziel thread hyped up on Clowney. That'll get all the Manzies riled up
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Old 04-04-2014   #2120
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

As analyzed at Battle Red Blog, Whitney Mercilus' pass rush is one dimensional, which is the primary reason he was so unproductive last year. http://www.battleredblog.com/2014/2/...rcilus-part-ii

If we were to draft Clowney to play the weak side opposite JJ, and Mercilus was moved to the strong side, what do you you think about this move?

The BRB analysis only focused on the pass rush and did not analyze play against the run or dropping back into coverage. So if Mercilus moved to the strong side, how do you think his play would compare to Reed's at this position?
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