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Old 04-03-2014   #2041
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
You're not wrong....I didn't include this reference specifically when I mentioned his high school bone spur issues........but it did include surgery. This information is buried in a single old ESPN article..........and, no, it would not change my impressions.
Okay, cool, wanted to make sure of that. Thanks, Doc!
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Old 04-03-2014   #2042
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

My biggest concerns with Clowney have always been:

1) His work ethic
2) His lack of production this past year (see #1)
3) His role in a traditional 3-4
4) His bone spurs

So, let's go through these one-by-one.

When I watched him in games, I saw a lot of times when he didn't seem to be working very hard. Especially when the play went away from him. I saw times where he didn't chase things down that I think he could have. I saw times where he didn't really do anything more than run into the OT and play patty-cake with him. And this bothered me.

But a couple of different people pointed out some things that put this into perspective for me. First off, he was playing almost every single defensive snap. But more importantly, even with those slack plays, he still found a handful of plays every game to just blow stuff up. So I'm not going to hold those slack plays against him anymore.

Another thing with his work ethic was that I didn't feel he put enough time working on his craft. I feel like he should be showing more and different moves. BUT. He also displays a great ability for diagnosing the play. One of the things that really frustrated me with Mario (and now with Mercilus) was that he'd get into the backfield very, very fast and then hesitate because he wasn't sure whether to go after the QB or the RB. Clowney doesn't have that hesitation. So I'm going to cut him slack on this and just hope that Kollar and Watt can get his craft up-to-speed.

His lack of production bothered me. Until I went back and looked at a lot of the premier pass-rusher's final year in college. Many of them experienced a distinct drop in production their final year. So I'm not going to hold that against him, anymore, either.

When it comes to his role in a traditional 3-4, he just doesn't fit. The guy looks like more of a 4-3 DE. BUT. Given what OB and Bruschi have said and RAC's own history, I'm not too worried about this anymore. RAC ran a 4-3 when he first started with the Patriots and then shifted to a 3-4. I think RAC is flexible enough in his scheme to change things to whatever they need to be to get the most out of both Watt and Clowney.

So. For me. The only reservation I still have with taking Clowney at 1-1 is his bone spurs. And. Frankly. I'm not THAT worried about those.

So, for me, I would not mind taking Clowney at 1-1, and then a tackle at 2-1, and then a QB like Garoppolo, Mettenberger, or Murray at 3-1. Or even someone like Tajh Boyd or Stephen Morris later in the draft.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2043
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
So that leaves Clowney and conversely I think his addition to the defense would do a lot more for that side of the ball than adding another WR, an elite RT, or a "good" rookie QB who might turn out or might not do ****. I wouldn't draft Bridgewater or Manziel first overall. No way in hell. The only three logical picks at No. 1 are Clowney, Robinson, and Watkins.

Get the QB at #33 if one falls that we like. If not roll with who we got and try again next year. Only thing that makes sense to me.
Your logic is on point. If there are only "good" QBs who are likely to turn into shoot you take Clowney.

However, you speak as if this is a fact, that they are all just good. What if I told you that I don't agree with your opinion that you are pushing as fact?

This thread has gone on for over 100 pages and this same post you just wrote has been written on every single one of those 100 pages.

I just want to break it to you and the next guy that posts this same exact thing on page 104. Your opinion is not fact.

If everybody in this draft sucks and Clowney is the only good person in the draft, I will draft Clowney with my #1 pick. Boom! Game changing analysis for you.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2044
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by PapaL View Post
This is where I've been for months as my ideal situation.

We cannot generate a pass rush to save our lives; Clowney instantly makes our D better. We also did not have consistent play at QB. Will a rookie QB from the AAC stabilize the position? (Feel free to pick between "the tall guy" or "the skinny guy") If QB at 2-1 is the play, the pressure on him is immensely less than at 1-1. He could sit most of the year behind Fitz and Keenum and learn...pressure free. 1-1 QB doesn't get that luxury.
Pressure or not, if you are not good, you are not good. If you are drafted at 2.01 and you are terrible, you are still a wasted pick.

I personally see no separation with the QBs at 2.01 and back with Ryan Fitzpatrick. If Clowney is the play, I am behind it, but I am not behind wasting a pick on Jimmy G. I would rather roll a year w/ Fitzpatrick, Keenum, and Yates than waste 2.01 on a guy like that who (IMO) will never amount to anything more than Ryan Fitzpatrick in the NFL.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2045
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
If Clowney is the GREAT player that so many are making him out to be, he would have more than 3 sacks this year.

If you're going to tell me he was limited to 3 sacks because of all the times he was double blocked this year, then I have to ask, if college teams can limit Clowney to 3 sacks with double blocks, how many sacks are you expecting when NFL teams are double blocking Clowney?
See,this is me. I don't have to create excuses for jf,bb,or tb even with a bad game here or there. For some reason,we have Neo of college football,yet his teammates trumped him in every defensive category. Now before the defenders of supafreak starts lying about the doubles and line shift, von miler had moore and porter and neither trumped his production. Mario played with manny lawson and tank tyler and neither trumped his production. Peppers had guys on the line with him,again none trumped his production. Kelcy Quarles had more tackles,tfls and trippled his sack production,but it was because of clowney?

See,this is my big issue. I'm 43, and I've never seen a supposed top pick have to be defended like clowney.Imagine if luck would've thrown for 50% and 2k yds with a upside td/int ratio. We have never had a so called top prospect have such a dog of a year and people are acting like it didn't happen. We're not talking about ansah who was came from another country and didn't even play football until track wasn't a option. We're talking about a guy whom we've known about since he was 13. If people were being honest and watched his 2012 games like I did,you will see the same guy.The diference was teams realize what he can't do which is what nfl teams will. We've seen mark anderson get 12 sacks as a rookie upfield rusher then be basically avg after that. We've seen kearse go from the freak to just a guy because of no counter move. The trend on clowney is going the wrong direction.

On a side note, no team will double clowney until he proves he can beat single blocks. If you've watched enough games of clowney, you will know he has trouble doing it even at the college level. Go watch his 4.5 sack performance vs clemson in 2012.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2046
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
Your logic is on point. If there are only "good" QBs who are likely to turn into shoot you take Clowney.

However, you speak as if this is a fact, that they are all just good. What if I told you that I don't agree with your opinion that you are pushing as fact?

This thread has gone on for over 100 pages and this same post you just wrote has been written on every single one of those 100 pages.

I just want to break it to you and the next guy that posts this same exact thing on page 104. Your opinion is not fact.

If everybody in this draft sucks and Clowney is the only good person in the draft, I will draft Clowney with my #1 pick. Boom! Game changing analysis for you.
Not following your line of thinking. There are plenty of good great players in this draft. Robinson/Watkins/Clowney/Matthews etc... help me figure out what you're saying?

You seem to be describing Teddy fans more than Clowney fans. IMHO
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Old 04-03-2014   #2047
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
Pressure or not, if you are not good, you are not good. If you are drafted at 2.01 and you are terrible, you are still a wasted pick.

I personally see no separation with the QBs at 2.01 and back with Ryan Fitzpatrick. If Clowney is the play, I am behind it, but I am not behind wasting a pick on Jimmy G. I would rather roll a year w/ Fitzpatrick, Keenum, and Yates than waste 2.01 on a guy like that who (IMO) will never amount to anything more than Ryan Fitzpatrick in the NFL.
I'm a Garappolo/Murray/Smith guy. But could get on board with waiting for a QB in 2015. Along with drafting a developmental QB somewhere in this draft.

I still think Manziel/Bortles will be 1-1. I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2048
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
NFL is in nickel/dime 70% of the time, RAC will run nickel 70% of time, OB has been quoting this number since he was still a candidate for HC and as recently as at the 3/31 Town Hall Q&A: http://bit.ly/Oehy9n
Playoffs do you, or anyone, have a link to a video of the town hall meeting? I searched the mothership and came up lame.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2049
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
See,this is me. I don't have to create excuses for jf,bb,or tb even with a bad game here or there. For some reason,we have Neo of college football,yet his teammates trumped him in every defensive category. Now before the defenders of supafreak starts lying about the doubles and line shift, von miler had moore and porter and neither trumped his production. Mario played with manny lawson and tank tyler and neither trumped his production. Peppers had guys on the line with him,again none trumped his production. Kelcy Quarles had more tackles,tfls and trippled his sack production,but it was because of clowney?

See,this is my big issue. I'm 43, and I've never seen a supposed top pick have to be defended like clowney.Imagine if luck would've thrown for 50% and 2k yds with a upside td/int ratio. We have never had a so called top prospect have such a dog of a year and people are acting like it didn't happen. We're not talking about ansah who was came from another country and didn't even play football until track wasn't a option. We're talking about a guy whom we've known about since he was 13. If people were being honest and watched his 2012 games like I did,you will see the same guy.The diference was teams realize what he can't do which is what nfl teams will. We've seen mark anderson get 12 sacks as a rookie upfield rusher then be basically avg after that. We've seen kearse go from the freak to just a guy because of no counter move. The trend on clowney is going the wrong direction.

On a side note, no team will double clowney until he proves he can beat single blocks. If you've watched enough games of clowney, you will know he has trouble doing it even at the college level. Go watch his 4.5 sack performance vs clemson in 2012.
I will trust Bruschi's eval over yours because he knows the type of guy RC wants. Your opinion is valid though. BTW, I still like Robinson.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2050
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by drs23 View Post
Playoffs do you, or anyone, have a link to a video of the town hall meeting? I searched the mothership and came up lame.
Have not found full recording of it yet. I expect it will pop up on HT.com, but delayed a bit. If it doesn't show up after a few weeks I'll start asking around to see if I can get a copy.


From Clowney's post pro day presser: http://www.jaguars.com/media-gallery...4-6ef09307afd4

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What are you going to miss most about your college experience?

JdC: Aww, man, my teammates. I came in with a good group of guys. We all bonded together like a real family of brothers. Everybody had each other's back, you know?

Cracking jokes, laughing with each other, everybody talking...

You always run into that guy that kinda had the same background as you growing up... and just having them in the lockeroom, you know, somebody going through the same things you're going through it's great.

We just sit there and talk about our problems, talk about something... it helps you out, you know, having somebody there you can count on... you're not worrying about them telling your business or nothing, so,

I miss my teammates, that's the thing I miss most about being at South Carolina, the same group I came in with... the same group that's still here.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2051
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I guess a nightmare is a dream.
Sad to think a city would pass on talent because of a last name.

To each his own I guess.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2052
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Sad to think a city would pass on talent because of a last name.

To each his own I guess.
Not the last name.

1 Roger Carr experience is enough to last for a lifetime.

I want a QB that football comes 1st.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2053
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Are you willing to go Clowney 1.1 and then:

trade #33 and 3rd round pick for Bortles/Manziel at roughly #20 overall?
That's an interesting call. If we were looking at a drop from one of them (or even Bridgewater) to around #20 then you would have to consider it if you thought they were better than the guy at #33.

I'd say "maybe". I'd make enquiries. I might try to put the other pick off a year but I bet in this draft they wouldn't want to do that.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2054
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Not following your line of thinking. There are plenty of good great players in this draft. Robinson/Watkins/Clowney/Matthews etc... help me figure out what you're saying?

You seem to be describing Teddy fans more than Clowney fans. IMHO
You'd probably need to read the guy I quoted I guess (read his full entry, I chopped it up just to quote it). I re-read it again and feel I wrote my point out correctly.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2055
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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There are ways to go about making your point without calling others stupid. I believe it's very safe to say Texian knows more football than you will forget. I only defend this guy because in another message board people like you used to talk this way to him, then when the draft was over and he was right on a subject and they were wrong, no one ever apologized or admitted fault.

I have a different view of Bortles but Texian was raving about him as a #1 pick when most didn't know his name. The people paid to do this were calling him a 3rd round pick, now a simple google search will show Texian may not be that far off. Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck also got sacked, threw INTs, and lost games FWIW.

With that said, I do not want Bortles, nor do I find the need to call others stupid for wanting as much.
Your support is much appreciated! Thanks!
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Old 04-03-2014   #2056
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Your support is much appreciated! Thanks!
I never called you stupid. Sounding stupid and being stupid are two different things. If you can't tell the two apart then you definitely fall into one group.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2057
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Not the last name.

1 Roger Carr experience is enough to last for a lifetime.

I want a QB that football comes 1st.
Bingo. It's not the name, it's the family traits.

Plus, yes the fan tolerance is going to be zilch.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2058
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I get where you're coming from, but disagree with you.

If Clowney is 1-1 and say Bortles fell to 7, would you do an Atlanta type (Julio Jones trade to move up and pick Bortles?

If so this would solidify the 3 most important positions on the team. QB/Pass rusher/LT. After studying Bortles I would have to consider trading up.
After studying the Blake Bortles vs Jadevon Clowney game, I look at it this way. IIRC Clowney had Bortles in his cross hairs with a straight shot, Locked and Loaded about 4 different times if IIRC. Bortles was able side step or out maneuver Clowney each time. So I ask, is Bortles that good in the pocket and avoiding pressure or is Clowney a one trick pony? You be the judge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYd29xlmc04

No I wouldn't make a Julio trade . The reason Atlanta is still is suffering today is because of giving up so much for Julio. Five picks is just to many and why give up any picks at all when you don't have to. I am also of the opinion that Jeremiah Attaochu could be a better NFL player than Clowney. Giving up 5 picks for a WR was absurd.



I would not be opposed to giving up 2.1 and 4.1 to move up to 1.26 to select JEREMIAH ATTAOCHU or DONTE' MONCRIEF for that matter.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2059
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I will trust Bruschi's eval over yours because he knows the type of guy RC wants. Your opinion is valid though. BTW, I still like Robinson.

That's cool and I respect bruschi,but you can also look at RAC history of lbs from lt and banks to houston and Hali. In between he had wimberely who had a double digit sack season as a rookie and fel off after that. All in all, its gonna be O'Brien/Rick Smith pick not RAC pick. For all we know a qb could be the highest rated player and they feel great about ford,smith,murphy,or attachou at top of 2nd. I maintain my stance,as long as the guy is of probowl caliber,they got it right. For all the holes on indy's team, they've won 11 games 2 yrs in a row. If they stop spending dumb money, they can be even better. Think about ravens before flacco and falcons before ryan. No one is saying either are great qbs. I remember ravens having great defenses missing the playoffs before flacco. Even with brees in division and a miserable season,the falcons have won more games since 08 than any team in that division.
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Old 04-03-2014   #2060
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post

No I wouldn't make a Julio trade . The reason Atlanta is still is suffering today is because of giving up so much for Julio. Five picks is just to many and why give up any picks at all when you don't have to. I am also of the opinion that Jeremiah Attaochu could be a better NFL player than Clowney. Giving up 5 picks for a WR was absurd.
How many play off games did Atlanta win before they drafted Julio Jones?
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