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Old 12-13-2013   #61
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by kingtexan View Post
The son of one of the greatest OL players of all time, that has already shown he is going to be a force himself, isnt worth picking #1?

Matthews or Clowney is the the #1 pick.

Anyone else is a reach.
Again the Texans have no QB. Keenum is a marginal backup, and no way Schaub is going to be on the roster. Unless you want Mark Sanchez or Jay Cutler (if the Bears lose their minds and let him walk) starting next year, it is pretty much going to be QB with the first pick.

Wouldn't be mad about Clowney. The Texans have one pass rusher on the whole roster
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Old 12-13-2013   #62
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
With rg3 shut down for the season were about to see an audition from cousins.

Anyone fancy him for a 2nd?
Nope that's how we got into the Matt Schaub situation.
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Old 12-13-2013   #63
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

I wouldn't because RG3 was dynamic until his knee went south . Can he be good afterwards as a different type of QB now ?
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Old 12-13-2013   #64
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Nope that's how we got into the Matt Schaub situation.
I really don't think Schaub was a bad trade, it was just the timing with his injury, at his age, coming up to being UFA that led to the bad contract we signed him to.

In fact I'd go as far as to say we could have won a SB with Schaub had the right people been put around him. Take the 2011 roster for example, and with draft misses like travis Johnson and amobi okoye, the injury to Charles spencer, key FA misses like Morlon greenwood, Ahman green etc, you could make a case to say it should never have taken the time it did to give him the supporting cast.

There's every chance that we're about to head into a QB wilderness and well all be longing for the days of a healthy Matt Schaub pre injury.
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Old 12-13-2013   #65
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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No thanks.

RG3 might be RGdone.

His mobility was his calling card and that is possibly gone.

I'm currently Ready for Teddy.
cosign this......
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Old 12-13-2013   #66
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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A good GM can leverage a high pick for more choices and still get the guy they have targeted when it's not an over-hyped QB.

I don't care what QB they bring in here, if the line cannot consistently protect him, he's going to struggle and most likely fail.

A good line can make a decent QB look good, and a good QB look great. And if you happen on a great QB with an awesome line, you are looking at a formula for long term success and Super Bowl potential.


I know McNair wants playoff contention in 2014 and does not want to be seen as a rebuild year, but that is either naively shortsighted or wishful thinking on his part. This team does not have a starting QB, does not have a HC, and most likely has to install a new offense. To expect immediate results is setting himself up. Yeah, it can happen, but let's not be ready to jump off bridges if immediate gratification is not satisfied.

I have no problem with a 2 year "rebuild" to re-stock players and fully implement new schemes. They will have high picks in every round, so do it right and make both the offensive and defensive lines something to build on for the long term future, IMO.
I don't think history supports this narrative. Aaron Rogers has never had a good line and he won the SB. Peyton Manning's lines were rarely good (if ever) and never great and we all know what he did.

A great QB transcends line play. If you think Bridgewater or Manziel or Carr or whoever is that kind of QB, you take him, regardless of the line.

Look at Luck; his line is awful and he will be making the playoffs for the second time in two years. Look at Wilson; he's playing behind patchwork and leading the best team in football.

IMO, a good/great line can make up for mediocre QB play (see: Matt Schaub), but a great QB almost make the line superfluous.
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Old 12-13-2013   #67
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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No, he was a flash in the pan. Will remain injury prone if he keeps running (like Vick) or be a mediocre passing QB (like Vick). Now Russel Wilson I would trade for ...
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Old 12-13-2013   #68
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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I don't think history supports this narrative. Aaron Rogers has never had a good line and he won the SB. Peyton Manning's lines were rarely good (if ever) and never great and we all know what he did.
I think you are underrating the lines you are using as examples particularly with respect to pass blocking.
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Old 12-13-2013   #69
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

I don't doubt Griffin can return to health, but I wouldn't want his circus here.
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Old 12-13-2013   #70
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

It's an equation. The better the line, the more time the QB has; this can make bad QBs appear to be better than they are and can sometimes elevate good QBs and make them appear elite. Certain QBs however can offset a bad line by making better reads and getting rid of the ball faster.

For some QBs, it doesn't really matter how much time the line gives them, they're still going to make bad decisions or be unable to make the throws they need to make.

I've always believed in building out from the lines. But for some QBs, it's really not going to make a difference.
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Old 12-13-2013   #71
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Just because they didn't press charges doesn't mean he didn't do it. If he was available to draft right now I would pass.

You've never met either one of them( him or her) and you weren't there so how do you know she's a hoe and he's not a rapist?
Just because there was a accusation doesn't mean he's a rapist either.. Charges were never filed and the cops didn't really even talk to Winston. You don't know them either to say she's isn't a "hoe" and he's a rapist either, so it goes both ways.

Innocent until proven guilty right? Especially if a case doesn't even make it's way into a court room and I highly doubt any starting QB at a division 1 school is going to have any problems getting laid on campus where he has to resort to raping somebody.
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Old 12-13-2013   #72
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

To answer the question: No.
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Old 12-13-2013   #73
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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I really don't think Schaub was a bad trade, it was just the timing with his injury, at his age, coming up to being UFA that led to the bad contract we signed him to.

In fact I'd go as far as to say we could have won a SB with Schaub had the right people been put around him. Take the 2011 roster for example, and with draft misses like travis Johnson and amobi okoye, the injury to Charles spencer, key FA misses like Morlon greenwood, Ahman green etc, you could make a case to say it should never have taken the time it did to give him the supporting cast.

There's every chance that we're about to head into a QB wilderness and well all be longing for the days of a healthy Matt Schaub pre injury.
Agree on Schaub. I know there is a lot of negative feelings about him this season, but overall, dude has been a pretty solid QB.

And your last point is where my fears are at right now. It is a gamble to take most QBs, regardless if they are rookies or vets.

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I don't think history supports this narrative. Aaron Rogers has never had a good line and he won the SB. Peyton Manning's lines were rarely good (if ever) and never great and we all know what he did.
QBs and their line have a symbiotic relationship. It's not all of one or the other. There is a balance.

Look at the dynasties that have won multiple Super Bowls and you will see consistently good offensive line play.

As far as Aaron Rodgers, consider this about the 2010 Packers:

OT Chad Clifton made the Pro Bowl
OG Josh Sitton was named Lineman of the Year by the NFL Alumni Association (and Pro Bowl alternate)
OT Bryan Bulaga was named to the 2010 NFL All Rookie Team

There's three out of five that played exceptionally well that year.

Now for Peyton Manning in 2006, consider this:

C Jeff Saturday made the Pro Bowl (one of six times, and a two time First Team All Pro)
LT Tarik Glenn made the Pro Bowl (one of three times)

I'm not going to argue that this was the best line ever, but take into account that we are talking about Peyton Manning, one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game.

Do you think we are going to get a QB anywhere near the caliber as Rodgers or Manning?

Of course not. So there is a direct correlation between great QBs and their line. Great talent can pick up the slack.

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
A great QB transcends line play.
Of course, nobody is saying otherwise.

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
If you think Bridgewater or Manziel or Carr or whoever is that kind of QB, you take him, regardless of the line.
This is where your argument gets shaky. You put an "if" in there, which basically undermines critical analysis. We can "if" all kinds of scenarios.

Do you honestly think Bridgewater or Manziel or Carr are going to be elite like Manning and Rodgers?

We cannot depend on it happening, so the logical thing to do is make sure the line can protect whoever the Texans get as QB.

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Look at Luck; his line is awful and he will be making the playoffs for the second time in two years. Look at Wilson; he's playing behind patchwork and leading the best team in football.
I like Luck, but c'mon, be real. The Colts make the playoffs by default because the AFCS is the worst division in football right now. The Colts will be the only team in the division that does not have a losing record.

And do not be surprised when the Colts lose in the first round of the playoffs.

As far as Wilson, let's see how the Seahawks do in the playoffs before crowning them "the best team in football". Their line problems could cost them in the post season.

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IMO, a good/great line can make up for mediocre QB play (see: Matt Schaub), but a great QB almost make the line superfluous.
So, in the end you agree with me. Interesting...

"A good line can make a decent QB look good, and a good QB look great."
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Old 12-13-2013   #74
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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I think you are underrating the lines you are using as examples particularly with respect to pass blocking.
Especially Seattle IMO. And DB, Seattle is going to be damn near impossible to beat at home, even if the team looks vulnerable in spots. This is the most acute home field advantage I have seen in a while. It's been ages since I've seen teams walk into a stadium intimidated.
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Old 12-13-2013   #75
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Just because they didn't press charges doesn't mean he didn't do it. If he was available to draft right now I would pass.

You've never met either one of them( him or her) and you weren't there so how do you know she's a hoe and he's not a rapist?
I didn't realize till yesterday that the 911 call was made by someone else. I don't know the story, but alcohol induced activity with morning after regret sounds likely. It might technically still be rape because the girl wasn't in control of her faculties, but the guy is usually in the same boat.

But again, I'm not Judge Judy who is sure of everything she suspects.
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Old 12-13-2013   #76
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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This is where your argument gets shaky. You put an "if" in there, which basically undermines critical analysis. We can "if" all kinds of scenarios.

Do you honestly think Bridgewater or Manziel or Carr are going to be elite like Manning and Rodgers?

We cannot depend on it happening, so the logical thing to do is make sure the line can protect whoever the Texans get as QB.
I don't think it makes my argument shaky. My argument is that a great QB is great, regardless of what kind of line he plays behind. My argument is that, if you think a rookie QB coming out will be great, you take that QB, OL be damned. You'll obviously reach a tipping point somewhere along the continuum where no matter how great a QB is he cannot succeed behind an o-line, but I certainly don't think that's applicable to our situation.

Do I think Bridgewater/Manizel/Carr are going to be Manning or Rogers? I'm a pretty big Bridgewater fan, and I think he could be. At least, I think so enough to take the risk if I am Rick Smith.

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So, in the end you agree with me. Interesting...

"A good line can make a decent QB look good, and a good QB look great."
I would probably say:

"A good line can make a decent QB look good, and a great QB can make a mediocre OL look good."
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Old 12-13-2013   #77
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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You can go back years in here and see that there isn't a bigger supporter of building the trenches than me. Mathews is simply overrated because of his name. I'm not saying he's not good. I think right now he would be a good RT in the nfl who COULD grow into a quality LT eventually. That's not top 5 material.

And lol and RG3 being damaged goods.
There are certainly exceptions to all rules. However, studies have borne out that not only do 2nd time around ACLs have a higher rate of failure, but that the loss of performance found after the first is more significantly impacted after the second. Add to the fact that RGIII tore up his entire left lateral knee support (complete LCL tear) along with the re-rupture of his ACL, you can also expect that he now carries an inordinate risk of contralateral ACL and other lower limb injuries.

A February study published in the Bone and Joint Journal showed that patients with ACL injury had just as much loss of position sense (proprioception [loss of which leads to instability]) in their good knee as their ACL injured knee, so what happens on one side seems to impact the other. The upshot? Getting one knee ACL “fixed” surgically appears to markedly increase the chance that the other knee will be injured. Is this due to the ACL injury itself or the ACL surgery? It could be either. In an ACL repair, there is no free lunch, less so with a re-repair, meaning that removing the ligament and installing one that can't under any circumstances be considered to be equivalent to the "original equipment" is at best a compromise option.
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Old 12-13-2013   #78
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Especially Seattle IMO. And DB, Seattle is going to be damn near impossible to beat at home, even if the team looks vulnerable in spots. This is the most acute home field advantage I have seen in a while. It's been ages since I've seen teams walk into a stadium intimidated.
I agree. Going into the playoffs, Seattle is clearly ahead of everyone with their dominating defense and obvious homefield advantage.

But even with all of that, there is a pressure in the playoffs that simply doesn't exist in the regular season. We see strong regular season teams struggle in the playoffs every year, so my main point was mainly to see them do it before becoming a true believer.

And their line, while 'patchwork', is clearly playing better as the season progresses. Several recent articles on the net talking about it.

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I don't think it makes my argument shaky. My argument is that a great QB is great, regardless of what kind of line he plays behind. My argument is that, if you think a rookie QB coming out will be great, you take that QB, OL be damned. You'll obviously reach a tipping point somewhere along the continuum where no matter how great a QB is he cannot succeed behind an o-line, but I certainly don't think that's applicable to our situation.
My shaky argument comment was more description than trying to tear it down. "If" arguments start to go into areas that have to be quantified and we can go in any direction.

I do not see a QB out there, either in the draft or veteran, that is going to be so good that they can make the right side of the Texans line look good.

And that's my point. The FO cannot stay status quo and hope for an "if" in the unknown QB. I'm a believer in old school fundamentally sound football, so this is my perspective. I don't have a problem if they draft a QB, but I'm not going to be upset if they 'draft ugly' to build the line.

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Do I think Bridgewater/Manizel/Carr are going to be Manning or Rogers? I'm a pretty big Bridgewater fan, and I think he could be. At least, I think so enough to take the risk if I am Rick Smith.
I don't have a problem with a decision like this, even if they go with Carr. But I'm not one to buy into hype, but rather I am more about see what happens to analyze.

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Originally Posted by nero THE zero View Post
I would probably say:

"A good line can make a decent QB look good, and a great QB can make a mediocre OL look good."
Well, I don't disagree. It almost gets to the point of debating semantics, because we both are in basic agreement about the overall point.
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Old 12-13-2013   #79
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
A February study published in the Bone and Joint Journal showed that patients with ACL injury had just as much loss of position sense (proprioception [loss of which leads to instability]) in their good knee as their ACL injured knee, so what happens on one side seems to impact the other...
Wow, Doc, that's pretty surprising to me. I guess a loss of proprioception of a repaired ACL knee is expected? It that because of loss of nerves/receptors/feeling???
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Old 12-13-2013   #80
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Wow, Doc, that's pretty surprising to me. I guess a loss of proprioception of a repaired ACL knee is expected? It that because of loss of nerves/receptors/feeling???
All of the above. Proprioception in the knee is a feedback to and from the brain as to where the knee is in space. It is required for that limb's stability. However, the right knee and the left knee work together to create total body/lower extremity stability. If one knee sends incorrect messages to the brain, the other knee which normally also requires feedback from the brain for the position of the contralateral knee fails to stabilize due to the fact that its feedback is also incorrect.
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